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Author Topic: The Brass Goggles Occult Society...The Esoteric Order of the Brazen Dawn...  (Read 192186 times)
Dimitry
Deck Hand
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United States United States



« Reply #625 on: August 04, 2009, 02:59:04 am »

Here is the best image I could get of that annoying little bugger. From the evidence, I am convinced it is a nekomata.



I think it might have possibly been an aftereffect from a necromantic experiment I conducted a fortnight ago. I am also of the opinion that it is incorporeal in nature.
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Gazongola
Zeppelin Admiral
******
England England


I am the flashing monocle.


« Reply #626 on: August 04, 2009, 03:31:19 am »

Here is the best image I could get of that annoying little bugger. From the evidence, I am convinced it is a nekomata.



I think it might have possibly been an aftereffect from a necromantic experiment I conducted a fortnight ago. I am also of the opinion that it is incorporeal in nature.


Goodness, that is indeed what you have!
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weretybe
Gunner
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United States United States



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« Reply #627 on: August 04, 2009, 03:40:28 am »

Here is the best image I could get of that annoying little bugger. From the evidence, I am convinced it is a nekomata.



I think it might have possibly been an aftereffect from a necromantic experiment I conducted a fortnight ago. I am also of the opinion that it is incorporeal in nature.


Goodness, that is indeed what you have!

Consider my interest piqued. Good luck in removing it from your home.
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"The Hell with this, Psellus thought; there was a time, long ago, when I used to be a decent human being."
-K.J. Parker

>>Sf0.org<<
Kittybriton
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States


Steampunk: absinthe-minded professors!


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« Reply #628 on: August 04, 2009, 12:20:41 pm »

This kind of photographic evidence is most exciting! Is there any possibility of securing the specimen for laboratory examination?
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Join me in exploring the music of time!
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Dimitry
Deck Hand
*
United States United States



« Reply #629 on: August 04, 2009, 07:53:49 pm »

This kind of photographic evidence is most exciting! Is there any possibility of securing the specimen for laboratory examination?

Well, the thing walked through a bloody wall. That leads me to believe that containment might be tenuous at best. So far the bugger has eluded all attempts at capture, and I'm already out ₤2 for kitty treats.
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Herr Döktor
Gadgeteer, Contraptionist, and Inventor, FVSS
Governor
Master Tinkerer
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Herr Döktor, and friend.


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« Reply #630 on: August 04, 2009, 08:07:26 pm »

Here is the best image I could get of that annoying little bugger. From the evidence, I am convinced it is a nekomata.



I think it might have possibly been an aftereffect from a necromantic experiment I conducted a fortnight ago. I am also of the opinion that it is incorporeal in nature.


Either that, or a fox has escaped from 'Sonic the Hedgehog'...
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Kittybriton
Zeppelin Captain
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United States United States


Steampunk: absinthe-minded professors!


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« Reply #631 on: August 04, 2009, 08:59:42 pm »

This kind of photographic evidence is most exciting! Is there any possibility of securing the specimen for laboratory examination?

Well, the thing walked through a bloody wall. That leads me to believe that containment might be tenuous at best. So far the bugger has eluded all attempts at capture, and I'm already out ₤2 for kitty treats.

Who ya gonna call?

Seriously though, I would love to get a professional investigator's firsthand opinion
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Mrs. Sullivan
Zeppelin Captain
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United States United States



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« Reply #632 on: August 05, 2009, 01:57:49 am »

Here is the best image I could get of that annoying little bugger. From the evidence, I am convinced it is a nekomata.



I think it might have possibly been an aftereffect from a necromantic experiment I conducted a fortnight ago. I am also of the opinion that it is incorporeal in nature.


That is the most ...muscular looking cat I have ever seen.  I find it quite disturbing.  Shocked
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Clockwerk Wolf
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He's a right looney, that one...


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« Reply #633 on: August 05, 2009, 02:14:32 am »

Dimitry, you took this image yourself? Most impressive.
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Dimitry
Deck Hand
*
United States United States



« Reply #634 on: August 06, 2009, 07:40:52 am »

Dimitry, you took this image yourself? Most impressive.

Why yes, good sir, I did just that. Thank you! I used my new Visible Electromagnetic Spectrum Reproduction Device. It's quite complicated, but the principals are easy for most laymen to understand.
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Sulecen
Snr. Officer
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United States United States


You kill me with that machine-gun laugh


« Reply #635 on: August 16, 2009, 04:12:09 am »

*coughs a bit at the dust kicked up*
So as I've been burying myself in Lovecraft of late, something caught my eye which I thought I'd get some thoughts on. He mentions The Witch-Cult in Western Europe, by Margaret Alice Murray, which led me to start searching a bit around the aetherweb looking for what it all was about. It does seem that Mrs. Murray's theories have mostly been debunked but any thoughts on them none the less?
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The Road goes ever on and on
    Down from the door where it began.
    Now far ahead the Road has gone,
    And I must follow, if I can,
    Pursuing it with eager feet,
    Until it joins some larger way
    Where many paths and errands meet.
    And whither then? I cannot say.
Khem Caigan
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Aut Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam


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« Reply #636 on: August 16, 2009, 07:22:44 am »

It does seem that Mrs. Murray's theories have mostly been debunked but any thoughts on them none the less?

We have to ask, to what extent has Murray
been debunked?

Her major thesis, that a witch-cult had survived
from Classical into Mediaeval times, still stands,
despite what scholars such as Cohn and Hutton
maintain.

See, for example :

The Night Battles :
Witchcraft & Agrarian Cults in
the Sixteenth & Seventeenth Centuries

by Carlo Ginzburg
Taylor & Francis, 1983.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/rcypr7

Ecstasies :
Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath

by Carlo Ginzburg
Translated by Raymond Rosenthal
University of Chicago Press, 2004.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/pgcjvs

The Witch in History :
Early Modern and Twentieth-Century
Representations

by Diane Purkiss
Routledge, 1996.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/oys95w
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"Let us create vessels and sails fashioned for the heavenly Æther, for there
will be plenty of people who do not shrink from the vastness of space."
~ Johannes Kepler, letter to Galileo Galilei, 1609.
groomporter
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United States United States


HMA Todd, Combined Highland Expeditionary Force


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« Reply #637 on: August 16, 2009, 05:17:04 pm »

We have to ask, to what extent has Murray
been debunked?

Her major thesis, that a witch-cult had survived
from Classical into Mediaeval times, still stands,
despite what scholars such as Cohn and Hutton
maintain.

See, for example :

The Night Battles :
Witchcraft & Agrarian Cults in
the Sixteenth & Seventeenth Centuries

by Carlo Ginzburg
Taylor & Francis, 1983.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/rcypr7


In reading the review attached to Night Battles the reviewer says the author "follows a tradition that goes back to Margaret Murray's Witch-Cult in Western Europe. In my view, it has led him badly astray."
Quote
Ecstasies :
Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath

by Carlo Ginzburg
Translated by Raymond Rosenthal
University of Chicago Press, 2004.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/pgcjvs


A quick look at this one finds on page 9 that even Ginzburg says "Murray... uncritically accepted the now consolidated stereotype of the Sabbath as a basis for her own interpretation, rendering it wholly unreliable." In the next paragraph he refers to "Murray's totally discredited thesis" and he seems to think she only had small part that was right that supports his theory.

Quote
The Witch in History :
Early Modern and Twentieth-Century
Representations

by Diane Purkiss
Routledge, 1996.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/oys95w

On page 62 this book says "Murray's thesis is intrinsically improbable. It was extremely criticized when it first came out and commands little or no allegiance within the modern academy"

One of the issues with her theories that I am familiar with was her belief that the witches' sabbath was a practice that was universal in Europe. However, there is NO evidence of the witches' sabbath in the early witch trials in England, it was an element in continental trials. It was known of by English scholars, but it did not show up in a English trial until the 17th century.
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If a person who indulges in gluttony is a glutton, and a person who commits a felony is a felon, then God is an iron.
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Countessa Lenora
Zeppelin Captain
*****
Canada Canada


CountessaLenora
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« Reply #638 on: August 17, 2009, 02:30:34 am »

Always be skeptical of anyone who claims their tradition goes back centuries or was passed down through generations.
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Proud to be a Canadian Steampunk
Khem Caigan
Zeppelin Overlord
*******
United States United States


Aut Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam


WWW
« Reply #639 on: August 22, 2009, 06:50:34 am »

In reading the review attached to Night Battles the reviewer says the author "follows a tradition that goes back to Margaret Murray's Witch-Cult in Western Europe. In my view, it has led him badly astray."


The lack of a proper citation for the author of the
review in question appears rather disingenuous,
to say the least - particularly when it turns out
that the author is none other than Norman Cohn,
whose own bias in the matter is well-known.

This review is not without interest for our
discussion, and may be read in full here :

http://tinyurl.com/nkltf7

Quote
A quick look at this one [ Ecstasies ] finds on page 9 that even Ginzburg says "Murray... uncritically accepted the now consolidated stereotype of the Sabbath as a basis for her own interpretation, rendering it wholly unreliable." In the next paragraph he refers to "Murray's totally discredited thesis" and he seems to think she only had small part that was right that supports his theory.


See Murray's The Witch-Cult in Western Europe,
1921, pages 238-246, for a discussion of the
relationship between witches and fairies :

The Witch-Cult in Western Europe
by Margaret Murray
Appendix I. Fairies and Witches
Available@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/mh8bcd

Murray was not the only author writing in the '20s
to draw parallels between the beliefs in witches
and fairies, however - see also MacCulloch's 'The
Mingling of Fairy and Witch Beliefs in Sixteenth
and Seventeenth Century Scotland'
, in Folklore
32, pages 227-244, published in 1921, and cited
in Julian Goodare's The Scottish Witch-Hunt
in Context
, for example.


" Like their early modern counterparts,
twentieth-century scholars have also troubled
themselves over the reality of the sabbath
experience and they too have veered between
the 'real' and the 'illusory' sides of the fence.

In the 1920s, British scholar Margaret Murray
claimed that witches' sabbaths were empirically
real historical events, representing the survival
of pre-Christian fertility rites throughout early
modern Europe. Subsequent scholars rebuked
Murray's theories, revealing flaws in her
presentation of evidence.

In 1975, the most vehement of Murray's critics,
Norman Cohn, helped to shift the balance of
scholarly opinion away from the perception of
the sabbath as a historical event by arguing
that the early modern notion of the sabbath
was rooted in collective fantasies about religious
heresy, perpetrated by the ruling elite as a
method of social control. In other words, it
was predominantly an elite fiction. The year
1989 saw something completely new brought
to the debate when Carlo Ginzburg published
his pioneering work, Ecstasies. In this book
Ginzburg offers an interpretation of the
ontological nature of the sabbath which
diverged from the polarized views of both
Murray and Cohn. Ginzburg argued that
descriptions of attendance at the sabbath
( along with affiliated descriptions of
spirit-related experiences, including visits
to fairyland ) found throughout early modern
Europe, were in fact evidence of the survival
of ritual trance experiences derived from
pre-Christian Eurasian shamanism. Ginzburg's
theory has since been backed up by other
scholars who have uncovered evidence of
popular shamanistic visionary traditions in
different parts of early modern Europe. As a
result of Ginzburg's work many scholars now
accept that there was likely to have been an
experiential component to sabbath beliefs in
this period, although they might disagree as
to its extent. "

~ from :

Cunning Folk and Familiar Spirits :
Shamanistic Visionary Traditions
in Early Modern British Witchcraft
and Magic
by Emma Wilby
Sussex Academic Press, 2005.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/msbpq3

Quote
One of the issues with her theories that I am familiar with was her belief that the witches' sabbath was a practice that was universal in Europe. However, there is NO evidence of the witches' sabbath in the early witch trials in England, it was an element in continental trials. It was known of by English scholars, but it did not show up in a English trial until the 17th century.


Fairy revels are well-known outside of the
trial literature in the UK long before the
period in question, and the crossover between
witches and fairies is well-attested both on the
continent and in the British Isles - see :

Elves in Anglo-Saxon England :
Matters of Belief, Health, Gender
and Identity
by Alaric Hall
Boydell Press, 2007, page 75.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/mrtmye

Alaric's Publications
http://tinyurl.com/n289av

In Scotland, for example, where the witch hunts
were some of the most vicious in Europe, and in
northern England, witches were often accused of
traffic with fairies rather than with Lucifer - see
A Dictionary of Fairies, by Katherine Briggs,
under the heading traffic with fairies.

" The worlds of fairies and witches are
connected organically and practically in
the context of witch trials. However, in
the narratives concerning witches' sabbats,
they were increasingly polarized as witchcraft
became more and more demonologized during
the hunts. The worlds of fairies and witches
are interwoven with each other due to their
archaic death characteristics, but they came
into opposition : the satanic, hellish, and
witchlike faced the godly, heavenly, and
fairylike. Witches generally stood on the
dark, satanic side. although this was never
exclusively so, as documentation about "good"
witches proves. More examples are offered
below. "

~ from :

Between the Living and the Dead :
A Perspective on Witches and Seers
in the Early Modern Age

by Éva Pócs
Central European University Press,
1999, page 91.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/m5tj53

" Encouraged by the initial successes of Carlo
Ginzburg, early modernists have proven more
willing to comment on ecstatic shamanism
as a remnant of archaic belief structures in
Christian Europe. "

~ from :

Werewolves, Witches,
and Wandering Spirits :
Traditional Belief & Folklore
in Early Modern Europe

by Kathryn A. Edwards
Truman State Univ Press, 2002,
page 30.
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/mgm2nu

See also :

Witches, Werewolves, and Fairies :
Shapeshifters and Astral Doubles
in the Middle Ages

by Claude Lecouteux
Inner Traditions, 2003.
Overview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/mgm2nu

Cunning Folk homepage
Dr. Owen Davies
http://tinyurl.com/mkuvko

Cunning-Folk :
Popular Magic in English History

by Owen Davies
Hambledon and London, 2003.
Overview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/kj9rau

Cunning Folk
From Wikipedia
http://tinyurl.com/69sw43
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 08:57:13 pm by Khem Caigan » Logged
Khem Caigan
Zeppelin Overlord
*******
United States United States


Aut Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam


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« Reply #640 on: August 22, 2009, 06:56:40 am »

Always be skeptical of anyone who claims their tradition goes back centuries or was passed down through generations.
That is about as tactless and off-colour as
Herr Döktor's remark about Baptised /
Christened individuals producing holy
water when they urinate.

I expect better of you all.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 07:03:54 am by Khem Caigan » Logged
Countessa Lenora
Zeppelin Captain
*****
Canada Canada


CountessaLenora
WWW
« Reply #641 on: August 22, 2009, 01:03:39 pm »

Always be skeptical of anyone who claims their tradition goes back centuries or was passed down through generations.
That is about as tactless and off-colour as
Herr Doktor's remark about Baptised /
Christened individuals producing holy
water when they urinate.

I expect better of you all.

I have to say I don't understand how my statement is "tactless and off-colour"?  It is simply a warning to not take such people at face value and to do your research.  I believe it is true for a few, but there are too many out there that make such a claim where it is entirely untrue and in some cases used for nefarious means.

I also have to disagree (strongly) that it is in any way similar to the Herr Doktor's remark about urinating holy water.
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Khem Caigan
Zeppelin Overlord
*******
United States United States


Aut Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam


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« Reply #642 on: August 22, 2009, 03:03:16 pm »

I have to say I don't understand how my statement is "tactless and off-colour"?  It is simply a warning to not take such people at face value and to do your research.  I believe it is true for a few, but there are too many out there that make such a claim where it is entirely untrue and in some cases used for nefarious means.

I also have to disagree (strongly) that it is in any way similar to the Herr Doktor's remark about urinating holy water.

The brush that you are employing here
is so very wide that, in the end, you
manage to indict practically every
religious or spiritual tradition that we
know of
, including those that we tend
to think of as being in the 'mainstream'.

And I sincerely hope that no one here
will take this as an invitation to libel
any religious or spiritual tradition in
particular
, either.

Please, in future, be more sensitive
and considerate of the religious or
spiritual practices of others - even,
and especially, when you personally
take exception to them.
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groomporter
Zeppelin Admiral
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United States United States


HMA Todd, Combined Highland Expeditionary Force


WWW
« Reply #643 on: August 31, 2009, 07:28:26 pm »

The brush that you are employing here
is so very wide that, in the end, you
manage to indict practically every
religious or spiritual tradition that we
know of
, including those that we tend
to think of as being in the 'mainstream'.

I suggest we should indict them all, they are all guilty of shoddy research at times, and too much wishful thinking in their history -especially in regard to themselves. But then we're getting into politics and religion in ways that are not approved of discussion in this forum.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 07:30:08 pm by groomporter » Logged
Khem Caigan
Zeppelin Overlord
*******
United States United States


Aut Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam


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« Reply #644 on: September 01, 2009, 03:21:49 am »

But then we're getting into politics and religion in ways that are not approved of for discussion on this forum.

Yes, you certainly are - and in spite of the warning. Sad
<rummages about in his workshop>
<activates the StupidFilter, amid more whirring and
sparking>
<sighs>

StupidFilter
http://tinyurl.com/yshau3
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Victoria The Mistress
Snr. Officer
****
United Kingdom United Kingdom



« Reply #645 on: September 01, 2009, 10:30:23 am »

Ooh, didn't I join this club a couple of aeons ago when I was first a member of the Forum?

Can't remember. It's my age.

Will catch up later.

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Malcom Kane
Snr. Officer
****
United States United States



« Reply #646 on: September 16, 2009, 04:09:24 am »

Witch,shaman,Reki master,Rune Valder Miester,and professional psychic .Looks like I need to be here .
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To Break the Chains,
To Shatter the Walls,
To Wake the Sleepers.
Victoria The Mistress
Snr. Officer
****
United Kingdom United Kingdom



« Reply #647 on: September 23, 2009, 10:30:24 pm »

Witch,shaman,Reki master,Rune Valder Miester,and professional psychic .Looks like I need to be here .

*Sidles over and looks interested*

Tell me more..... Wink
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darkshines
Rogue Ætherlord
*
Wales Wales


Miss Katonic 1898


« Reply #648 on: September 24, 2009, 09:28:27 am »

I have now handed in my dissertation, if you would like a copy, bound, I can allow you to purchase one for £10. The finished titled is "Take a Bow: The Perception of Mesmerism for a Victorian Audience", and the chapter titles are "Medical Marvels: (May Cause Some Side Effects)", "Transcendence and the Sublime: Poetic Inspiration From Beyond the Veil" and "Mesmerism and Villainy: Svengali Types and Mind Control".
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DrTom
Snr. Officer
****
United States United States


Mad Psyentist


WWW
« Reply #649 on: September 26, 2009, 07:04:54 am »

Many congratulations on this part of the hurdle!  As someone who utilizes hypnosis profesionally on a regular basis, I applaud your exploration of this topic...best of luck on your defense!
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"We are the music makers.
      And we are the dreamers of dreams,"
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