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Author Topic: The Brass Goggles Occult Society...The Esoteric Order of the Brazen Dawn...  (Read 188873 times)
Marrock
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« Reply #250 on: January 27, 2009, 07:51:44 pm »

It also helps to find someplace that has a few different decks on display and then just find one that "talks" to you.

One should just draw you to it more than the rest.
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Katrina Broekhart
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« Reply #251 on: January 28, 2009, 05:44:15 am »

I just found my deck! Coincidence...?  Undecided

I only picked mine because it came with an instruction book. Stupid, I know.
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« Reply #252 on: January 28, 2009, 08:17:16 am »

Slightly off topic, but if I were to get any sort of divination deck, I’d go for one based on The Malazan Book of the Fallen’s “Deck of Dragons”  Less for the divination and more for because I can’t stop reading the damned books.  That and it would be neat to have a Deck of Dragons.

So far as Tarot readings go, it’s not quite my thing.  Divination in general really.  I’ve been of the opinion that the future is ours to fusion.
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« Reply #253 on: January 28, 2009, 08:36:00 pm »

Who is your favorite historical alchemist, and if you answer is not Sir George Ripley, why ever not??

That has to be Edward Kelley (aka Edward Talbot) 1555 - 1597, who traveled across europe in the company of John Dee.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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« Reply #254 on: January 28, 2009, 08:59:26 pm »

In 1865 an important occult tome was published. It was disguised as a nonsense childrens story. This book contains an assault on the readers sense of reality. It may be the first published work of what is currently called 'chaos magick'.

The book, for those that have not guessed already, is Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.

Quote
I wonder if I've been changed in the night? Let me think. Was I the same when I got up this morning? I almost think I can remember feeling a little different. But if I'm not the same, the next question is 'Who in the world am I?' Ah, that's the great puzzle! - Alice

This book should be sat between the 'Tao Te Ching' and 'Principia Discordia' on your bookshelf. I suspect that if this had not been published under the guise of a childrens story in 1865 it would have been banned.

The 'Mad' Hatter asks "Why is a raven like a writing desk?", and one has to wonder at the brilliance of this Koan appearing in a book for children! Alice   can be seen as a British version of the Sufi 'Tales of Nasreddin' where the subversive meaning is hidden behind a mask of illogical whimsy.
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rovingjack
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« Reply #255 on: January 29, 2009, 04:32:13 am »

I'm not a huge divination user myself but I do have my own hand made runes, a classic deck of tarot and a deck of cards that seem to be Romany fortune teller cards. The last are something I'm still trying to figure out. I get that the burning wagon can be representative of the death of one of the people, but the rest of the Maj. Arc. are sort of beyound me as to their meaning. I can make a wild guess that one might be some version of the moon card, and maybe one could pass as the fool though it's numbered 22. They really are quite lovely. They have portraits of very victorian looking kings, queens, knights an princesses (at least that is what seems to be in place of the pages).
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Maddie
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« Reply #256 on: February 01, 2009, 05:47:47 pm »

And what a splendid day to dabble into this part of the forum, only to discover this group, or Society, indeed.

Regarding tarots, I am currently in full actuality working on my own steampunk version, though I have mostly worked on the minor arcana, my inspiration quickly grows on the eight greater days, or when the moon grows to full.
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« Reply #257 on: February 09, 2009, 09:56:19 am »

I tend to dabble in Tarot on a semi regular basis myself. Though I don't consult it often, when I do it often unnerves me how accurate it is.
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lavenderfae
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« Reply #258 on: February 10, 2009, 10:03:37 pm »

I am rather fond of Brian Froud's Faerie Oracle, which of course is not Victorian, though the Victorians were fond of faeries.
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Khem Caigan
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« Reply #259 on: February 15, 2009, 04:34:25 am »

A newish theory regarding Tarot cards is that some of the figures portrayed may actually be inspired by allegorical figures portrayed
in Medieval passion plays and Mardi Gras celebrations, so they might have more Christian connections than people realize.


Every image found in the old decks can be seen
first in Johannes Engel's Astrolabium Planum
in Tabulis Ascendens
, a collection of images
of the 36 decans as well as all 360 degrees of the
zodiac, that was published in 1488.

See these links for more information :

The Decans
From Three Books of Occult Philosophy
by Henry Cornelius Agrippa
and Astrolabium Planum by Johannes Engel
http://tinyurl.com/5545w

The Images of the Degrees
From Johannes Engel's Astrolabium Planum
http://tinyurl.com/clv453

See the 10th degree of Leo at the link above
for an image of the "Death" card, for
example, and the 26th degree of Libra for an
image of the "Strength" card.

See Ross Caldwell's essay on the Visconti-Sforza
Trump of "Force" or "Strength" with regard to
the images of the Astrolabium Planum,
available here :
http://tinyurl.com/b6w6un

And see also the Heidelberger Schicksalsbuch,
published in 1491, for a full-colour version
of Engel's images :
http://tinyurl.com/b33l5y
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« Reply #260 on: February 15, 2009, 05:04:23 am »

Vampires a sort of faery? Who sold you that one, mate?

Actually, he's dead-bang on - and there is
a tie-in with witches and werewolves, into
the bargain.

See :

Witches Werewolves and Fairies
by Claude Lecouteux

Between the Living and the Dead
by Eva Pocs

Werewolves, Witches, and Wandering
Spirits : Traditional Belief and Folklore
in Early Modern Europe

edited by Kathryn A. Edwards

The Witch in History
by Diane Purkiss
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Sean Patrick O-Byrne
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« Reply #261 on: February 16, 2009, 02:59:16 am »

Hrmph. I'd say depends what you consider a faery, sure. Or a witch, for that matter. Some sort of demon-worshipping hag, or a tree-lovin' wiccan.
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I've stood knee deep cyanide, got sick with a caustic burn
Been working rough, I've seen enough, to make your stomach turn


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rovingjack
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« Reply #262 on: February 16, 2009, 03:15:52 am »

don't believe everything you read. For example I could list several sources that could tell you that the pope is the anti christ, or that all those who haven't accepted so-and-so religion as the one true one are in leauge with the dark forces of the world.

If you read any middle eastern text you would be made to believe that Allah was always the devine entity in that region, and it'd  be years of struggle and research to find out anything about preislamic faiths (trust me on that). Even then the data will refer to it through islamic shadings. With the blasophemous poets/shaman in league with the demonic Djinn to cause humanity to stray into SHRK.

I have never seen any reliable source that deliniates direct connections from the fair folk, to vampires and lyncanthropes.

I think perhaps any implication of such is an attempt by an overzealous scholar to find commonality among the non-human entities of the world.
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Khem Caigan
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« Reply #263 on: February 16, 2009, 07:01:14 am »

I have never seen any reliable source that deliniates direct connections from the fair folk, to vampires and lyncanthropes.

I think perhaps any implication of such is an attempt by an overzealous scholar to find commonality among the non-human entities of the world.


I would think that any book published by a university
press, and most especially one that cites primary
sources, would be considered a reliable source.

I could have cited the work of Katharine Mary Briggs
and Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz in addition to the
books mentioned, but I wanted to offer some
contemporary titles that turned over some new
ground.

Here are a pair of examples from Briggs and
Evans-Wentz :

" Sometimes the fairies have a vampire-like habit
of sucking human blood.
It used to be believed in Man that if water was
not left out for them to drink they would suck
the blood of the sleepers in the house, or bleed
them and make a cake with the blood. What
was left of the cake they would hide about the
house, and if it was not found and given to the
sleepers to eat they would die of a wasting
sickness. "
~ from :
The Fairies in Tradition and Literature
by Katharine Mary Briggs, page 114.

A Fairy-Baking

--'At night the fairies came into a house in Glen
Rushen to bake. The family had put no water out
for them; and a beggar-man who had been left
lodging on the sofa downstairs heard the fairies
say, "We have no water, so we'll take blood out
of the toe of the servant who forgot our water."
And from the girl's blood they mixed their dough.
Then they baked their cakes, ate most of them,
and poked pieces up under the thatched roof.
The next day the servant-girl fell ill, and
was ill until the old beggar-man returned to
the house and cured her with a bit of the cake
which he took from under the thatch.'
~ from :
The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries
By W. Y. Evans-Wentz, 1911
Chapter IV. In The Isle Of Man,
pages 127-128.
http://tinyurl.com/d5qhuh

Evans-Wentz's compilation of interviews is now
freely available online at the link below :

The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries
By W. Y. Evans-Wentz [1911]
http://tinyurl.com/324e5d

If you would care to offer any titles in rebuttal,
be my guest.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 04:05:45 pm by Khem Caigan » Logged
groomporter
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« Reply #264 on: February 16, 2009, 06:06:04 pm »

I don't think there's a need to argue the point. Considering the wide and varied traditions associated with both fair folk and vampires in different cultures it not surprising to find some similar, or overlapping traits somewhere in most of these traditions. For example there are also shape shifters among the beings that are often classified as part of the "fairy" traditions -the Selkies are one example. The Phouka is said to be a shape shifter that may appear as a horse, rabbit, goat, goblin, or dog.

The big difference seems that vampires and werewolves are more often looked at as mortals who have been cursed/tainted in some way, as opposed to the fairy folk who are supernatural beings to begin with.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 06:22:00 pm by groomporter » Logged

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rovingjack
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« Reply #265 on: February 16, 2009, 10:36:12 pm »

it doesn't seem to need a rebuttal as it states in the first example that they have a vampire like tendancy...

To have a tendancy like something does not make you that thing.

none of your other quotes even go that far as to suggest it at all. All they say is there is the consumption of blood.

Cyotes will consume blood yet they are not vampires, heck pet dogs will seek blood to eat in the garbage cans.

They display a vampire like tendancy to consume the blood of other living things. Should I go get my stake and garlic and head down to the pound?

The fair folk and other fay like beings have their origins and elemental and nature spirits, where Nosferatu have their origins in diseased humans and animated dead.

My main reason for such veamate objections to saying they are related is that one group is a personification of the wild and unpredictable life of the world around us and the other is a fear and unscertainty about the state of death and disease.
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Sean Patrick O-Byrne
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« Reply #266 on: February 16, 2009, 10:49:42 pm »

It is true one must always remember that the fae are not the happy tricksters of childrens stories, and the reality is quite grim. They can be cruel and malicious, and thier motivations are alien to us.

I would say that on the topic of 'vampiric tendencies' the main difference is that a vampire requires blood to continue, while for the other examples it is merely an option. Another more human example: the Steppe nomads who roamed between northeast Europe and Asia have been documented as drinking the blood of their horses when water or food was scarce. This attests to their symbiotic relationships with their mounts, and that the mere consumption of blood does not make one a vampire. Black pudding? Gravy?

Reliance on blood, I would say, is the deciding factor.

These books of yours, Mr. Caigan, I'll have to remember their names if they ever come up, though I would say that simply being published by a university does not automatically make something truth.
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Khem Caigan
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« Reply #267 on: February 17, 2009, 12:28:37 am »

The big difference seems that vampires and werewolves are more often looked at as mortals who have been
cursed/tainted in some way, as opposed to the fairy folk who are supernatural beings to begin with.

Once having studied the matter in any depth, it
can no longer be taken for granted that the fairy
folk are supernatural beings to begin with.

In fact, there are many historic accounts in which
a text or informant states quite plainly that fairies
are the spirits of the dead, that is to say, beings
that once were human.

Both Evans-Wentz and Briggs offer evidence for this,
as well as the texts that I cited above.

Here is another excerpt from Briggs' Encyclopedia of
Fairies
, pages 318-319 :

"The Sluagh or Fairy Hosts are the evil dead, according
to Highland belief. Finvarra's following in Ireland seem
to comprise the dead who have recently died as well as
the ancient dead; but they are almost as sinister as the
Sluagh. "
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Sean Patrick O-Byrne
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« Reply #268 on: February 17, 2009, 12:55:53 am »

Well as I understand it, some hold the idea that a 'faery' is anything that's not a flesh and blood human/animal/bug etc. and that they individually have different names. Fairy can be an all-encompasing term or, to others, a fairly specific one. It's a hard thing to pin down. Add on to that regional and 'local' fae creatures and faerye's all make it even more convoluted.

One mans Fairie Hosts might be another mans Ghost or Lost Soul.

How do you discern which is which, or if there is even a difference?

And on the topic of 'supernatural' I once heard the arguement that since the 'Little People' live in such a harmony with the world around them that they are in fact more 'natural' then humans!
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Khem Caigan
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« Reply #269 on: February 17, 2009, 02:03:54 am »

These books of yours, Mr. Caigan, I'll have to remember their names if they ever come up, though I
would say that simply being published by a university does not automatically make something truth.

We weren't speaking of "truth", however.

rovingjack wrote that he had never seen
any reliable source delineating a direct
connection between fairies and vampires
and lycanthropes, and I in my turn obliged
him by offering several texts from academically
credentialed authors that go to some lengths
to demonstrate such a connection from historic
sources.

An academic text, which is a text that has at
least been through a review by one's peers in
the Academy, is not necessarily the stuff of
Eternal Truth, but I submit that it is "suitable
or fit to be relied on
," as the author's arguments
have survived the more than casual scrutiny of
academic specialists in the author's chosen field
of endeavour, and were thus warranted fit to
see print by the author's University.
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groomporter
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« Reply #270 on: February 17, 2009, 02:09:58 am »

There's also the Irish story that at the time of Lucifer's revolt the fallen angels were cast out of heaven and some fell into the sea, and some on the dry land, and some fell into hell, and those that were not evil enough to be cast as deep as hell became the fairy folk related to the woods, seas, mountains or where ever they ended up landing.

AS Mr O-Byrne wrote, they are a hard thing to pin down, there is no one strict explanation, there is a spectrum of explanations in such traditions, and the bottom line is, for the sake of our Steampunk fictions we are free to blend the colors from that spectrum as they fit best into the plot of our stories.

and just for fun:
I dreamt of a hunter of insects
with his bottles, nets and pins
and shuddered to think of a man
who would do a butterfly in

If little boys tear wings from flies
I suppose that there's an excuse
But I can't believe the faerie-folk
from adults, would bear such abuse

For tho they be immortal
lacking man-ish wants or cares
Honour must be upheld
'gainst mortal science and her snares

So pity that bug hunter
in his folly and his pain
for his most precious quarry
shall prove his greatest bane.
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Khem Caigan
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« Reply #271 on: February 17, 2009, 02:25:24 am »

There's also the Irish story that at the time of Lucifer's revolt the fallen angels were cast out of heaven and some fell into the sea, and some on the dry land, and some fell into hell, and those that were not evil enough to be cast as deep as hell became the fairy folk related to the woods, seas, mountains or where ever they ended up landing.


You will find several versions of this story in
Evans-Wentz.

Here is a Scottish version recorded by
Alexander Carmichael :

" Another theory of the origin of fairies I took down in the
island of Miunghlaidh (Minglay); and, though I have given
it in Carmina Gadelica, it is sufficiently interesting
to be quoted here. During October 1871, Roderick Macneill,
known as 'Ruaraidh mac Dhomhuil, then ninety-two years
of age, told it in Gaelic to the late J. F. Campbell of Islay
and the writer, when they were storm-stayed in the
precipitous island of Miunghlaidh, Barra:--

'The Proud Angel fomented a rebellion among the angels
of heaven, where he had been a leading light. He declared
that he would go and found a kingdom for himself. When
going out at the door of heaven the Proud Angel brought
prickly lightning and biting lightning out of the doorstep
with his heels. Many angels followed him--so many that
at last the Son called out, "Father! Father! the city is being
emptied!" whereupon the Father ordered that the gates
of heaven and the gates of hell should be closed.

This was instantly done. And those who were in were in,
and those who were out were out; while the hosts who
had left heaven and had not reached hell flew into the
holes of the earth, like the stormy petrels.

These are the Fairy Folk--ever since doomed to live
under the ground, and only allowed to emerge where
and when the King permits. They are never allowed
abroad on Thursday, that being Columba's Day; nor
on Friday, that being the Son's Day; nor on Saturday,
that being Mary's Day; nor on Sunday, that being the
Lord's Day.' "

~ from :
The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries
By W. Y. Evans-Wentz, 1911.
Chapter III. In Scotland
http://tinyurl.com/acvegp
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groomporter
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« Reply #272 on: February 17, 2009, 02:36:48 am »

Many angels followed him--so many that
at last the Son called out, "Father! Father! the city is being
emptied!" whereupon the Father ordered that the gates
of heaven and the gates of hell should be closed.

This was instantly done. And those who were in were in,
and those who were out were out; while the hosts who
had left heaven and had not reached hell flew into the
holes of the earth, like the stormy petrels.

I've always like that version of it for some reason, there's something about the "son" (or one of the archangels) calling out to god that "the city is being emptied!" that makes it feel a little more like some other mythologies where the gods are more human-like in their emotions, and therefore at risk of making mistakes.
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Khem Caigan
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« Reply #273 on: February 17, 2009, 03:53:41 am »

I've always like that version of it for some reason, there's something about the "son" (or one of the archangels) calling out to god that "the city is being emptied!" that makes it feel a little more like some other mythologies where the gods are more human-like in their emotions, and therefore at risk of making mistakes.


Here is another version of that tale as reported
by Evans-Wentz :

Father MacDonald's Opinions. -

" We then asked about the late Rev. Donald MacDonald,
who had the reputation of knowing all about fairies
and spirits when he lived here in these islands, and
John said : - 'I have heard my wife say that she
questioned Father MacDonald, who was then a parish
priest here in Barra, and for whom she was a
housekeeper, if it was possible that such beings or
spirits as fairies were in existence.

He said "Yes", and that they were those who left
Heaven after the fallen angels; and that those
going out after the fallen angels had gone out were
so numerous and kept going so long that St. Michael
notified Christ that the throne was fast emptying,
and when Christ saw the state of affairs he ordered
the doors of Heaven to be closed at once, saying
as he gave the order, "Who is out is out and who is
in is in."

And the fairies are as numerous now as ever they
were before the beginning of the world.' "

~ from :
The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries
by Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz, 1911,
Page 105.
http://tinyurl.com/ah4355
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rovingjack
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« Reply #274 on: February 17, 2009, 04:49:03 am »

no offense but I'm gonna have to chalk those referances up with the referances of evil shrk colluding with Djin to lead the decendants of abraham away from the path of the righteous.

anything that connects fairy with lucifer is retcon. The fair folk predate the introduction of monotheistic practic, and a source that uses the not of gods court and thus demonic argument smacks too much of propaganda.

I'll admit it's some good stories that get told about the earth bound angels, and there are examples of similar concept in islamic texts too, (actually angels lusting after the beautifully haired women of humanity is what is thought to have spawned the biblical giants like goliath, and inspired the use of veils in islamic traditions... why do I find myself referring to that subset of abrahamic faith so much lately?)

I tend to look to sources that hold the legends in their own origins, such as the tales of the invasions of ireland and the animistic practices of the early europeans.

The point is made that many texts will say many things as each respective author tries to make the stories of those that came before fit their own world view. I still get annoyed when I read school text books that state things such as, the primative ancients saw many minor gods at work in the slightest natural phenomenon and sought to make sacrifice to their imagined gods; but in the same text mention more enlightened christian practices.

I dispise 'scholarly' text that shows such heavy bias and a religious agenda.

yes the stories are good in some cases, I don't get too bent out of shape with the portrayal of alchemy in full metal alchemist, but I do get rather torqued when some geek of the show uses it like an instruction manual for his practice of alchemy and has the gall to try to preach the 'truth' to others.

Worse I despise the kind of fellow who most resently was talking to a freind of mine and myself about the evils of meditation and how it is against the christian way, and the teachings of christ.

I'll buy that he had some bad experiances (often it's what you bring into such things that dictates what you get out) and they can be facinating discussions of spiritual practice and personal belief but a source of credible referance (being one without having been founded on personal belief) or a foundation for advice to others they are not.

I could point you to a widely read wiccan text, used in many religious circles that consider it the best referance for those who wish to practice and acknowledge the ancient ways... yet referances a ancient goddess of death as a goddess of rest and peace. Generally speaking that's a bit more relaxed than I like to get.

Also keep in mind the tower of babel. For here is where we see it's effects. Some people consider giants to be a kind of fairy (I have a bit of trouble fathoming that one, other then perhaps the idea as a fairy tale creature) and some would limit the term to tinkerbelle-esque entities. Ther are also lost in translation moments where we get the idea of what Shinto Kami are. You can't easily translate the concept and when you do the terms are a bad fit missing some nuances and including some that are inappropriate.

So before you go chasing Fairies with wooden stakes and garlic might I suggest that you take some of these texts with a grain of salt and try to sus out which of them are saying that they are the same thing and which are simple saying that they are nonhuman supernatrual enities. Then look for other sources. Always keep in mind the prevailing BELIEF of the time (lest we should begin again to question wether the earth is indeed the center of the universe, beacause I can find many a source that says so.

It doesn't do to make mistakes when facing either vampire or fairy kind. Even the Seelie court is not disposed to kindness toward those who show poor ettiquette.
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