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Author Topic: Victorian Reference Help!  (Read 2971 times)
Capt. Nicodemus Gooding
Gunner
**

« on: March 31, 2007, 06:32:19 am »

Hello all of my good victorian ladies and gentlemen!! I have a very slight request.

So far two sites have been posted on the textual area for reference material to the victorian period. I'm kindly requesting any references to every aspect of victorian life in Europe (specifically England, France, and Germany) and in the "wild west" regions of America. I do need the more urban areas of the United States such as New York and Washington, but that isn't until I start on the second book  Grin!

If you can offer any aid at all, I would be much appreciative!!

Your friend and servant,
Capt. Nicodemus Gooding
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Charlie Mortdecai
Guest
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2007, 01:49:23 pm »

Sir,
May I suggest you peruse the primary source materials available at The Victorian Times Project - scans of documents from the period on staggering host of topics.

http://www.victoriantimes.org/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXSESSION_=T7xL6ZkiWqS&_IXACTION_=file&_IXFILE_=browse/fullbrowse.html

Charlie
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Emperor
Snr. Officer
****
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Divine Wind


WWW
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2007, 04:20:57 pm »

Good resource!!

I have been jamming links on such matters onto deli.cio.us:

http://del.icio.us/wunderk/victoriana

Also the resources mentioned here are well worth looking into.
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Emps

if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

Steampunk Collective thread
The Grand Duchess
Snr. Officer
****
Patior Sed Supervivo


« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2007, 04:23:05 pm »

If you comb through many of the posts on the textual board, you will see a wealth of links, as well as pointers on where to find books on the subject.  In fact, people have been putting up links all over the place- I'd look through the entire forum.

By the way- I found the links I put up by using Google. I simply typed in 'Victorian ____' or '19th century ____' and then clicked through the ones that came up.  You can also type in words like 'airship', 'dirigible', 'belle epoque', 'old west', 'civil war', 'raj', 'prussian empire', 'art nouveau', 'impressionists', 'academic art', 'opium wars', 'tokugawa shogunate', and so on.  Also, try combinations like '(European nation) in (name of colony)', and so on. It's a rather easy process.

From looking up your posts, I see that you are a college student.  That means you have access to JSTOR and other online databases.  You also have access to interlibrary loans which means you can track down dissertations and out of print books that located at other universities. I would strongly suggest that rather than using the internet as your primary source, you attempt to do some book research first. I also submit that asking for 'any references to every aspect of victorian life in Europe (specifically England, France, and Germany)' is like asking people in a cooking forum for the entire of history of cooking from the Romans on. It bespeaks of a want of effort and a desire to have others do your work for you.  I am sure that this is not what you intended. If you wish to become a writer, you will have to learn how to do serious research on your own, and to ask very specific questions of knowledgeable people so that you do not waste their time or strain their patience. Asking for 60-odd years' worth of literary, architectural, cultural, historical and geographical information on three nations while showing only a very slight amount of rigor is a bit unfair.

Please let us know what you find during your research- you will no doubt be adding to the knowledge base here quite soon.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 05:27:16 pm by The Grand Duchess » Logged

A true alternative subculture is one that not only questions the social status quo but poses viable solutions to some of the perceived underlying problems. Difference from the norm is not the same as superiority to the mainstream unless it can be  argued that the difference is positing a better way.
Charlie Mortdecai
Guest
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2007, 03:59:11 pm »

If you don't find what you're looking for here

http://home.insightbb.com/~d.lawson/

then you're doing it wrong.

Charlie
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The Grand Duchess
Snr. Officer
****
Patior Sed Supervivo


« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2007, 06:25:15 am »

Ah, but that only covers Britain.  I believe he wanted all of Western Europe, especially Britain, France and Germany. Surely there is one website that covers pretty much all of the 19th Century (especially since the French and Germans didn't call that period the Victorian Era) for all of Europe, with every cultural, geographical and other details mentioned in full, preferably with illustrations and citations to facilitate finding further information. Oh- and I assume all this information should be in English, too. None of the foreign rot. What's the use of the internet if it doesn't provide us with all we want to know, so that we don't have to cull through volumes of books written by historians, sociologists, philosophers, political scientists, costumers, journalists, humorists, musicians, artists, critics, diarists, economists and everybody else, beginning in the actual Victorian Era and continuing to the present day?

Come now, Mr. Mortdecai!  Chop, chop! Just because it might have taken you several years of your life to learn only one corner of these things, doesn't mean that anyone else should actually have to take time to learn pretty much everything about at least three major European cultures.  Spit it out, man- there's a good stout fellow! There is no time to waste- knowledge must be comprehensive, instant, and easy for the young.  That book stuff is no longer the thing. We should empty our brains to everyone who asks for it, and as quickly as possible too, lest innocent people be forced to enter an actual library and stain their precious hands with ink.

All right- I'm sorry about the flowing sarcasm and I shall stop being so terribly rude.  It's just that I find it difficult to believe that anyone would make such a request when it's obvious that an hour or so with Mr Google might yield as much or more as has already been described extensively within this forum. No doubt all of this annoyance is exacerbated by a rather tight corset and not enough absinthe. Please forgive me- I shall withdraw into my boudoir and utilize my fainting couch and smelling salts forthwith.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 06:32:07 am by The Grand Duchess » Logged
Charlie Mortdecai
Guest
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2007, 03:35:48 pm »

Hmmm.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 10:50:09 am by Charlie Mortdecai » Logged
The Grand Duchess
Snr. Officer
****
Patior Sed Supervivo


« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2007, 06:43:05 pm »

I think we should encourage them also.  Which is why at least one hundred posts of mine provide links to material on the Victorian era. EDIT:  There's also the issue of the word 'comprehensive', which according to the Compact OED means:
comprehensive -  including or dealing with all or nearly all aspects of something.

As opposed to cursory, which means:
      
cursory - hasty and therefore not thorough.

The Captain wants a comprehensive knowledge- that cannot be gotten through internet sources.  If he wants a cursory knowledge, I'll be more than happy to help- and I've been doing so, all over this forum for at least two weeks.

In other words, most of the info is already on the BG forum. But is it gathered in one place? No. Or, rather, yes- but the search engine at the top of the page will have to be used to make it pop up. But the young man is at college.  It's not academic snobbery to suggest a college student use a library.  Everything  is not yet on the internet; some things are only found in books.  For instance, so far as I have seen, there is no comprehensive information on Germany during the Victorian era online and in English.  However, there are plenty of books with that information.  The same goes for 19th Century France.  Ditto Spain, Portugal, and other places that are all part of Europe.  For New York, I can tell you from personal experience that the best way to find information on that great city- even comprehensive information- is by going to a bookstore or library.  The Encyclopedia of New York City is not on the internet, but it is sitting in Barnes and Noble right now, and in most American libraries, too.

Most info on poverty during the 19th century- what people ate, how they dressed, and how they entertained themselves- has to be found in libraries.  Or by utilizing film, which can in part be found through Netflix in the US.  But that requires more than letting info wash over one.  The majority of net information is on the wealthy classes- in fact, many people here have already commented on the difficulty in finding out how working class people lived and died.  Is it intellectual snobbery to say that the reason they can't find out what they want to know is because it's not going to show up on their doorstep- they'll actually have to leave the house in order to find it?  Especially when that happens to be true? And especially since one of the perks of attending university is the free use of interlibrary loan, which can bring one materials from (in my case) all over the US, including items that can usually only be seen by scholars and haven't been copied onto the net or into books as yet?  Or would you prefer that I lie and say that one can get a comprehensive understanding even of Great Britain over a one hundred year period just by looking at one or two websites that have tons of links, some of which are dead?

If the Pierian Spring sat in the middle of Broadway where horse carts could muddy it, it would have no value, would it? According to legend, the Pierian Spring was only found by the deserving who searched for it.  There were no maps.

From Alexander Pope's Essay on Criticism:
    "A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring;
    For shallow draughts intoxicate the brain
    And drinking largely sobers us again.
    Fired at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
    In fearless youth we tempt the heights of arts,
    While from the bounded level of our mind,
    Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind;
    But more advanced, behold with strange surprise
    New distant scenes of endless science rise!
    So pleased at first the towering Alps we try.
    Mount o'er the vales, and seem to tread the sky,
    The' eternal snows appear already past,
    And the first clouds and mountains seem the last;
    But those attained, we tremble to survey
    The growing labours of the lengthened way,
    Th' increasing prospects tire our wandering eyes,
    Hills peep o'er hills, and Alps on Alps arise!"

EDIT- in the US, we don't copy things by hand anymore- we use electrical copiers.  It usually costs about a quarter a page at the most.  But even so, writing down information never killed anybody.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 01:23:29 am by The Grand Duchess » Logged
Reiver
Guest
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 01:38:18 am »

Ma’am,

So loosen your stays, take another draught of the green fairy and slip another cylinder on the phonograph.

Charlie

Trained academic historian though you may be, comprehensive does indeed explicitly require detailed knowledge of a matter or topic of study. If my thesis had not been comprehensive, I would never have my advanced degrees. As far as I know there are no seats of higher learning that award degrees for cursory knowledge of a field of study. They demand rigour, comprehensive knowledge of the field, and the ability to display same.

I might suggest you consider the change in your use of the word comprehensive to thorough when pairing such terms with "overview".

Logged
Capt. Nicodemus Gooding
Gunner
**

« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2007, 09:41:23 pm »

Hello friends! I really appreciate all of your help, but please, Duchess and Mr. Mortdecai, I don't want you two to argue over my request. I apologize for my lack of posting this week, I've been quite busy with returning to school after spring break, and have had to deal with a myriad of tests.

And a brilliant use of observation, Grand Duchess. I am indeed a Freshman here at the University of Missour Rolla. Thank you for your suggestion about my library. I hadn't thought to use my library, as I believed it was useless in my research, as our library is comprised of nearly nothing but engineering materials. Even the periodicals, excluding newspapers, focus on engineering. But now that you have informed me of these aids, I will most certainly put them to use! Once again, I thank all of you for your help!! I will post any significant materials I find.
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La Bricoleuse
Snr. Officer
****
United States United States

Sartorial Engineer


WWW
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2007, 11:43:24 pm »

For a lot of interesting period photography and periodical articles on the American West, check out Ghost Cowboy, a historical blog: http://www.ghostcowboy.com/
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The Grand Duchess
Snr. Officer
****
Patior Sed Supervivo


« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2007, 02:47:26 am »

Hello friends! I really appreciate all of your help, but please, Duchess and Mr. Mortdecai, I don't want you two to argue over my request. I apologize for my lack of posting this week, I've been quite busy with returning to school after spring break, and have had to deal with a myriad of tests.

And a brilliant use of observation, Grand Duchess. I am indeed a Freshman here at the University of Missour Rolla. Thank you for your suggestion about my library. I hadn't thought to use my library, as I believed it was useless in my research, as our library is comprised of nearly nothing but engineering materials. Even the periodicals, excluding newspapers, focus on engineering. But now that you have informed me of these aids, I will most certainly put them to use! Once again, I thank all of you for your help!! I will post any significant materials I find.

I would suggest that you look for 19th century documents on engineering, to start.  I also looked up your school library- there are online references to historical maps of all the continents.  For instance:
Perry-Castañeda Library
Map Collection
Historical World Maps

Atlases:
Cambridge Modern History Atlas (1912)
Historical Atlas by William Shepherd (1911)
Historical Atlas by William Shepherd (1923-26)
Public Schools Historical Atlas by C. Colbeck (1905)

Individual Maps:
The Age of Discovery 1340-1600 (1.4 MB)
    From Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd, 1911.

The World XVI Century (215K)
    From The Public Schools Historical Atlas by C. Colbeck, 1905

Wytfliet's Map of the World 1598 (487K)
    From The Scottish Geographical Magazine Vol. XVI, No. 1, 1900.

The Spread of Colonization, 1600-1700 (516K)
    Includes these inset maps: Partition of Guiana and the West Indies 1600-1700; India; The Establishment of Dutch Power in the Malay Archipelago, 1602-1641; and Guinea Coast. From Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd, 1911.

The Struggle for Colonial Dominion, 1700-1763 (431K)
    Insets: The West Indies, 1700-1763. Cook's Voyages in the Southern Pacific. From Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd, 1923.

The World 1772 (290K)
    From The Public Schools Historical Atlas by C. Colbeck, 1905

The World on Mercators Projection 1820 (991K)
    From The Cyclopaedia or, Universal Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and Literature by Abraham Rees, 1820.

The Notable High Buildings of the World 1896 (710K)
    From Rand, McNally & Co.'s Universal Atlas of The World. Edition 1896.

The World: Colonial Possessions and Commercial Highways 1910 (971K)
    From Cambridge Modern History Atlas, 1912

The Distribution of the Principal European Languages 1911 (332K)
    From Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd, 1911.

Present Distribution of Europeans, Chinese, Japanese and Negroes 1911 (366K)
    From Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd, 1911.

Density of Population 1918 (388K)
    From The British Dominions Year Book, 1918

World War II Maps

NATO: The North Atlantic Treaty Organization 1970 (139K)
    From Nuclear Weapons and NATO: Analytical Survey of Literature by United States Department of the Army, 1970.

United States Collective Defense Arrangements 1967 (420K)
    From Nuclear Weapons and NATO: Analytical Survey of Literature by United States Department of the Army, 1970.


There is also this:
Journals available in full-text online:
-- Basic Engineering
-- Biological Sciences
-- Business Administration
-- Chemical & Biological Engineering
-- Chemistry
-- Civil, Architectural, & Environmental Engineering
-- Computer Science
-- Economics & Finance
-- Electrical & Computer Engineering
-- Engineering Management
-- English
-- Geological & Petroleum Engineering
-- Geology & Geophysics
-- History & Political Science
-- Materials Science & Engineering
-- Mathematics & Statistics
-- Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering
-- Mining Engineering
-- Nuclear Engineering
-- Philosophy & Liberal Arts -- free journals are interfiled under their appropriate department
-- Physics
-- Psychology

If I can see all this from my computer in New York, then you should have an easier time of it.  Ask the librarians for help- don't assume that they can't get materials for you.  They can, and they will, if you just put in requests.
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Chuzzlewit
Snr. Officer
****
Netherlands Netherlands



« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2007, 12:21:59 am »

Probably get in trouble again, but...

There are many reasons to want to explore the past, and most of them are simply admirable per se, and indeed most of the methods used are admirable. Heaven knows we need working historians... One reason to look into the past, I get the hint, seems to be to research novels, Captain Gooding?
 
If this is the case primary sources such as the sites recommended by Messrs Mortdecai and Emperor are wonderful for detail and authenticity and such fine books as The Difference Engine would be nowhere without such materials.
But if I may be so bold, the Duchess has in mind something rather different, which is the personal development of a full-on historical conscience - a grasp of our place and our responsibilities in the grand arch of history - to ask what can history teach us about our condition today. We are talking the big questions here, like... Was the British Empire a net gain or net loss to the world... should the unalloyed pride of the period be replaced by unalloyed shame today? Things like that. In approaching questions like this I find that the free resources on the internet seem to be a pale shadow of what is created when a historian, sociologist, political scientist, or follower of any other discipline which uses the past as material, puts a couple of years thought into a book. Some good examples are in the Duchess's "Fun with Imperialism" thread. Books like that are all about the collection and evaluation of evidence to give a shape to history that can be agreed upon or debated by serious minds. Such endeavors are often very subjective, and obviously historians with questionable agendas find their way into bookshops and even libraries. but by going through the conclusions raised by such people one learns to oneself evaluate the usage of evidence. Integrity and rigour are key, and it is indeed a version of the process that is followed in the natural sciences (though, sadly, people are easier to fool than Mother Nature...)

The formation of a historical conscience is a personal thing, I think, but one that is of such ambition and importance that the Duchess is perfectly entitled to the powerful emotions the idea arouses in her, as long as she apologises for any fallout afterwards...  Smiley

Then again, I may be off my horse completely here...

Regards &c
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"`Suppose, after all, it all ends in your butterflies and morlocks. THAT DOESN'T MATTER NOW. The effort's real. It's worth going on with. It's worth it. It's worth it, even so.' . . .
The Grand Duchess
Snr. Officer
****
Patior Sed Supervivo


« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2007, 02:24:11 am »

Probably get in trouble again, but...

There are many reasons to want to explore the past, and most of them are simply admirable per se, and indeed most of the methods used are admirable. Heaven knows we need working historians... One reason to look into the past, I get the hint, seems to be to research novels, Captain Gooding?
 
If this is the case primary sources such as the sites recommended by Messrs Mortdecai and Emperor are wonderful for detail and authenticity and such fine books as The Difference Engine would be nowhere without such materials.
But if I may be so bold, the Duchess has in mind something rather different, which is the personal development of a full-on historical conscience - a grasp of our place and our responsibilities in the grand arch of history - to ask what can history teach us about our condition today. We are talking the big questions here, like... Was the British Empire a net gain or net loss to the world... should the unalloyed pride of the period be replaced by unalloyed shame today? Things like that. In approaching questions like this I find that the free resources on the internet seem to be a pale shadow of what is created when a historian, sociologist, political scientist, or follower of any other discipline which uses the past as material, puts a couple of years thought into a book. Some good examples are in the Duchess's "Fun with Imperialism" thread. Books like that are all about the collection and evaluation of evidence to give a shape to history that can be agreed upon or debated by serious minds. Such endeavors are often very subjective, and obviously historians with questionable agendas find their way into bookshops and even libraries. but by going through the conclusions raised by such people one learns to oneself evaluate the usage of evidence. Integrity and rigour are key, and it is indeed a version of the process that is followed in the natural sciences (though, sadly, people are easier to fool than Mother Nature...)

The formation of a historical conscience is a personal thing, I think, but one that is of such ambition and importance that the Duchess is perfectly entitled to the powerful emotions the idea arouses in her, as long as she apologises for any fallout afterwards...  Smiley

Then again, I may be off my horse completely here...

Regards &c



I'm glad I'm not drinking hot cocoa right now, or the insides of my nose would be scalded.

That's indeed what I'm talking about.  I love the internet and the quick and easy information it gives.  It's a delight, and I've learned a great deal that way.  But if I hadn't had an understanding of history in the first place, most of what I've found would simply be a chain of disconnected factoids  with no real sticking power.   My approach is based on the old saw about the difference between give a man a fish and teaching him how to use a fishing pole.  What makes a man a fisherman is not his ability to eat fish; it's his ability to recognise good fish from bad, to know what kinds of bait will catch which kinds of fish, and how to clean the fish after it's caught.  The first method leads to a single meal which might be tasty or might be terrible (although chances are this group will turn up an excellent meal), but leaves one with a momentary satisfaction nevertheless.  The second method leads to the development of a person who can not only talk to anyone about fishing, but who can develop new ideas and methods of fishing and teach others how to fish also.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 03:38:52 pm by The Grand Duchess » Logged
Mercury Wells
Rogue Ætherlord
*
I insiste that you do call me WELLS. :)


« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2007, 05:14:30 am »

I do really hope this of some help.

Manchester (UK) Costume Museum
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Oh...my old war wound? I got that at The Battle of Dorking. Very nasty affair that was, I can tell you.

The Ministry of Tea respectfully advises you to drink one cup of tea day...for that +5 Moral Fibre stat.
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