The Steampunk Forum at Brass Goggles
November 21, 2017, 12:50:14 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Support BrassGoggles! Donate once or $3/mo.
 See details here.
 
   Home   Blog Help Rules Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Are airships [Flying Sailships] Plausible?  (Read 683 times)
MillieOfIcaria
Swab

United States United States


Aspiring Writer and Artist


« on: June 11, 2017, 03:07:16 pm »

I got the idea for a Steampunk-themed story based on an airship captain named Millie. I'm trying to come up with a way for the airships to work in a realistic manner. I was thinking possibly Flux Pinning combined with turbines near the back of the ship. It would have sails on the deck and on the hull, and machinery near the back of the inside of the ship, near the turbines. A sheet of magnets would be laid beneath the ground. The turbines would propel the ships around. The ships would fly at approx. 6500 feet. I know there'd be a need for liquid nitrogen [or some way to cool the superconductor] and the magnets would have to be EVERYWHERE, including under the ocean. I'm also not entirely sure that the flux pinning would work while the underneath of a ship, possible oceans or houses, the ground, and that much distance are between the magnets and superconductor. I'm not very knowledgeable on this types of things, so feel free to correct me and suggest other ways for the ships to float. I'd also need a way for the ships to change altitude, change direction, and generally act like a ship. Would sails be useful? What machinery would be required? How often would the ship need to restock on fuel, or supplies depending on the size of the ship? Would it need balloons/a blimp to work? Would steam or mist be produced? What size would the ship have to be? How many crew members could it support? How many crew members would be necessary, and in what positions? Would there be a weight limit? How close could you get to the underside's turbines etc. when it is moving?

The place I found flux pinning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7ZWirICmG8&t=470s

I don't have much knowledge on the subject, so correct me if I'm wrong and maybe try to simplify things a bit. Thanks!
Logged
Hektor Plasm
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United Kingdom United Kingdom


All-Round Oddfellow.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2017, 07:28:15 pm »

Hello!

I understand your pain; realistic and plausible without bending too many rules... what to do?

Well, what I do in these circumstances is stick firmly to the rules. But, as the author, you make the rules, so add whatever fiavour of
phlogiston, handwavium or plasma conduit you need to make things plausible - in your particular world- and make sure that you and all of the characters stick rigidly to them.

Hope that makes sense?

HP

ps this also applies to any magic system- rules is rules, and there are consequences...


*whee! Fun with HTML  Grin *
Logged

"all die! o, the embarrassment."
H Plasm Esq. ICUE    Avatar by and with kind permission of Dr Geof. Ta!!

Some musings:-
http://hektorplasm.blogspot.co.uk/
Steamworkshop
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States


Accurate reproductions of items that never existed


WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2017, 04:27:59 pm »

I wouldn't get bogged down writing a technical manual at the beginning of a story. Just assume that the ship works. Let it's capabilities and mysteries develop as the story unfolds. If the ship is going to be a character, treat it like one. Get the reader curious and feed them bits of info as the story evolves. Leave the reader wanting to know more and they'll keep reading. You don't have to explain anything in the beginning. As your story develops you can come up with information about the ship that works with the story.

Just come up with an idea of what you want the characters to be doing and assume they built or acquired a ship that would meet their basic needs and modified it from there.

*Are they taking long unsupported expeditions or bouncing from town to town?
*Are they fighters, smugglers, spies, police, fugitives, refugees etc...? 
*Are they supported, like a military unit, or are they rogue and stealing/scavenging parts?

This will determine the type of ship it is (freighter, fast fighter, research vessel, yacht etc...) and any modifications it's received over time.

I wouldn't give the reader any more than that until the story really develops. You don't even have to know for yourself.

You can even have flashback type scenes to answer questions about the ship. You have to get the reader interested first though. You can't dump it all in the beginning.

Logged

Atterton
Time Traveler
****

Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2017, 08:40:40 pm »

Magnetic levitation would not work at such distances. If they flew lower to the ground you could look into ekranoplanes. Otherwise there is what I believe is called ionic levitation. You ionize the air above a craft, creating low air pressure. The air pressure beneath keeps the craft aloft. It works, but nobody has managed to make anything useful with it.
Logged

Resurrectionist and freelance surgeon.
CPT_J_Percell
Moderator
Zeppelin Captain
*
England England


The werewolf Airship Captain.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2017, 09:25:29 pm »

Don't forget Obscurium, Jesticulum and magic!
Logged

I suffer from a random misfiring synapse and a bad case of wolfen the turns me into a seven-foot-tall werewolf or a seven-foot great wolf!
https://dragon-rehoming-centre.myshopify.com/
http://purbry.wordpress.com
Hektor Plasm
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United Kingdom United Kingdom


All-Round Oddfellow.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2017, 07:30:39 pm »

I learned to my surprise today (shame on me...) that Rudyard Kipling did in fact write quite a few stories that would count as Science Fiction, in the same style that became popular in the famous pulps such as Astounding and Analog.

"How is this relevant?" I hear you cry... well, here:-

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29135/29135-h/29135-h.htm

With the Night Mail by Rudyard Kipling

is a tale of mail-carrying airships, set in 2000AD, powered by mysterious forces and gases, which are never quite explained as such, but are introduced to the story gradually in such a way that they do seem perfectly plausible.

Worth a look, I think, if not for ideas, then for style?

HP

*Also, on the Gutenberg site are hundreds of original copies of the golden age pulp magazines and other classic stories! *
 

Logged
Cora Courcelle
Snr. Officer
****
England England



« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2017, 07:43:17 pm »

Think of it this way. 

As steampunk is all make-believe, then that is what you have to do ... make me believe.
Few people actually know how most modern technology works, (although this forum probably contains more who do than the average), and fewer still care as long as the car/washing machine/computer/telephone etc starts when you press the magic button.  If the characters and story grip my attention you can power the airship with pixie waffle dust as far as I'm concerned; if they don't I'm not going to continue reading no matter how accurate the technobabble.
Logged

You have to tread a fine line between avant-garde surrealism and getting yourself sectioned...
Synistor 303
Gunner
**
Australia Australia


Zenyna Ironbracker


« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 01:33:52 am »

Think of it this way. 

As steampunk is all make-believe, then that is what you have to do ... make me believe.
Few people actually know how most modern technology works, (although this forum probably contains more who do than the average), and fewer still care as long as the car/washing machine/computer/telephone etc starts when you press the magic button.  If the characters and story grip my attention you can power the airship with pixie waffle dust as far as I'm concerned; if they don't I'm not going to continue reading no matter how accurate the technobabble.

Oh yes, please don't bogged down by long, boring details about every aspect as to how the "machine" works. Michael Crichton does that, making his otherwise good stories a dull pain to read. If you write as if your audience already knows that sailing/flying ships fly, then we will believe it.
Logged
Otto Von Pifka
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United States United States


goggles? they're here somewhere.....


« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 01:56:15 am »

you need to lay down your story lore, even if its just for your use as the author. then you have a baseline for all your technology to work from.

perhaps something more akin to teslas power transmission to repel the ships into levitating. there could be areas where the ships travel easier, thus establishing shipping routes popular with most vehicles, while other places resist the transmissions making them "the wilds" almost immune to any sort of traffic. power transmission stations are run by competing states, that both strive for bragging rights for their "philanthropy" and strategic gains for their own political purposes. vehicles themselves collect the energy and use it to repel and to power the propulsing turbines. while the technology is rather simple to use, advanced designs benefit from better efficiency and reduced bulk/weight.

as far as having an envelope and gas in them, you could use the gasses and envelope as a sort of closed loop cooling system to cool the supermagnets and to assist greatly in lift. the gasses are used to radiate away heat in the envelope and compressed/refridgerated to cool the superconductor coils. don't forget the world has a magnetic field already and the variances in it could be used to affect the navigation routes and dead zones in the grid coverage. the envelope itself would also serve as a mount for the giant induction coils needed to tap power from the tesla grid to power the turbines and supermagnets.

very basic ships would use sails to assist on movement while using larger gas envelopes to do most of the lift work, so the engineering side of things would be simpler and more easily maintained by a less trained crew, while larger military type vessels would be more technological in design and practice.
Logged
J. Wilhelm
╬ Admiral und Luftschiffengel ╬
Board Moderator
Immortal
**
United States United States


Sentisne fortunatum punkus? Veni. Diem meum comple


WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 08:19:49 am »

Speaking as an engineer who knows a bit about physics, I actually prefer to not see real physical systems try to do things that are non-physical. In other words, your superconductivity induced levitation through the Meissner Effect requires really strong force fields that are not realistic over the altitudes that you mention for practical reasons (possibly as well for biological viability reasons).

If you are going with science fiction, you might as well go "all out," with unknown types of matter and/or forces which belong to the types of things real physicists discuss over a cup of coffee at Starbucks, or a good cognac at their favourite Italian Gelatto place. In other words "high-brow bovine manure"  ( Grin Yes, I've been an engineer spectator to some of those theoretical physicist types when they're drunk. College towns are great for that).

Alcohol or caffeine effects notwithstanding, some of the theories that real scientists come up when they're wearing a tinfoil hat are really interesting, and since they're a bit more removed from everyday reality, make for better speculation and science fiction while still seeming plausible.

Search for "Diametrical Drive" and "Negative Mass" on the webs...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_mass
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Propulsion_Physics_Program#Diametrical
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-gravity#General_relativity_research_in_the_1950s

It is based on a concept originally proposed by Joaquin Mazdak Luttinger, and then explained by a scientist named Hermann Bondi, in the 1950s, whereby there is such a thing as "negative mass." You can think of negative mass as being equivalently made from "negative energy", in the famous Einstein’s equation E=mc2.  While the concept seems far-fetched, Bondi postulated that the existence of negative mass does not violate Einstein's concept of Gravity under his Theory of Relativity.

Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity describes gravity and the laws of motion for both positive and negative energy particles, hence negative mass, and negative mass doesn't violate anything, other than a postulate Einstein made, named the Positive Energy Condition, which doesn't affect the consistency of the equations in the theory. Meanwhile the Standard Model in Particle Physics (think particle accelerators) does not include gravity.

So there are no obstacles to the existence of negative matter as far as accepted and corroborated (by experiment) physics can say. And in fact, just recently some scientists from Washington State University in 2017, have claimed to have "reversed" the sign of mass, and observed negative mass properties in some Rubidium atoms at near absolute zero temperature...

Future Quantum Mechanics research might lead to some other conclusion though, and in fact, mathematical research by Jean-Marie Souriau in 1970 offered a different set of properties for negative matter, thus refuting Bondi's properties of negative matter, the ones I'll explain below:

~ ~ ~

Negative mass is a bit more complicated than you might think. This is not about mass "that floats." This is not a balloon's buoyancy we're talking about. But rather this is about a strange theoretical property, in which negative mass tends to repulse all other mass (whether it's negative or positive), while positive mass always attracts other mass (positive or negative). The net effect is that negative mass can "cancel out" the Gravity of an equal amount of positive mass along the line that connects both centres of mass.

With a sharp eye, you can see the strange effect: A regular positive mass would feel a force pushing against it coming from the negative mass so it would accelerate away from the negative mass. But the negative mass on the other hand would feel a pull from the positive mass, so it would move toward the positive mass. This phenomenon is called "runaway" or "self accelerating" motion.

So if you place a positive pellet of mass (+m) on the left side, and a negative pellet of mass, (-m), on the right side, both the positive and the negative pellets of mass accelerate to the left, along the centreline between the two, with no limit, other than a relativistic speed limit!

Quote
In July 1988, Robert L. Forward presented a paper at the AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE 24th Joint Propulsion Conference that proposed a Bondi negative gravitational mass propulsion system.[12]

[Hermann] Bondi pointed out that a negative mass will fall toward (and not away from) "normal" matter, since although the gravitational force is repulsive, the negative mass (according to Newton's law, F=ma) responds by accelerating in the opposite of the direction of the force. Normal mass, on the other hand, will fall away from the negative matter. He noted that two identical masses, one positive and one negative, placed near each other will therefore self-accelerate in the direction of the line between them, with the negative mass chasing after the positive mass.[11] Notice that because the negative mass acquires negative kinetic energy, the total energy of the accelerating masses remains at zero. Forward pointed out that the self-acceleration effect is due to the negative inertial mass, and could be seen induced without the gravitational forces between the particles.

Quote
In 1957, following Luttinger's idea, Hermann Bondi suggested in a paper in Reviews of Modern Physics that mass might be negative as well as positive.[5] He pointed out that this does not entail a logical contradiction, as long as all three forms of mass are negative, but that the assumption of negative mass involves some counter-intuitive form of motion. For example, an object with negative inertial mass would be expected to accelerate in the opposite direction to that in which it was pushed.

*snip*

Runaway motion

Although no particles are known to have negative mass, physicists (primarily Hermann Bondi in 1957,[5] William B. Bonnor in 1989,[11] then Robert L. Forward[12]) have been able to describe some of the anticipated properties such particles may have. Assuming that all three concepts of mass are equivalent the gravitational interactions between masses of arbitrary sign can be explored, based on the Einstein field equations:

1. Positive mass attracts both other positive masses and negative masses.

2. Negative mass repels both other negative masses and positive masses.

Sounds ridiculous and impossible, and this is of course is refuted by Bondi, the same physicist who came up with negative mass and the explanation of how negative mass would behave, because he sees it as a purely mathematical construct allowed by the equations in Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and not a real phenomenon. Remember Jean-Marie Souriau mentioned above? She seems to show that reversing the energy of matter (hence it's mass) is actually equivalent to reversing the arrow of time in matter. In other words, negative matter, she argued, is matter that is moving backward in time. Souriau explained through some high level maths that the mathematical properties in General Theory of Relativity, actually precluded negative matter from being able to do the "runaway motion" trick - so no perpetual machine.

But the fact is, that as incredible as this sounds - basically a perpetual motion machine-  Bondi's "laws" don't violate conservation of energy and momentum on the following grounds, AND provided you look at the system of two pellets as a unit, and assume an initial velocity for each mass to be the same as the other, and the mass of both pellets is exactly the same:

1. The net Mass of the system is zero.

2. The net Momentum of the system is zero (even though it may be moving!!!)

3. The net Kinetic Energy of the system is also zero.

Hence the system is not violating any physics outside of itself. The keyword here is ZERO, if you think about it. That cancellation effect of mass.

One other interesting property follows:

1. When negative mass and regular mass come in contact they annihilate each other like matter and antimatter, EXCEPT that when the negative mass particles and positive mass particles come together they don't explode releasing energy, but instead the collision releases zero energy. In other words, they simply cancel out.  Grin  

Of course, Bondi's negative mass element "Unobtanium" is nowhere to be found. Grin Or is it?  Roll Eyes The closest we have come is the experiment where Rubidium atoms were "converted" in 2017 by Prof. Peter Engels and a team of his colleagues at Washington State University... Speculate as you will

Quote
Prof. Peter Engels and a team of colleagues at Washington State University claim to have observed negative mass on the 10th April 2017 when they created new negative effective mass by reducing the temperature of rubidium atoms to near absolute zero, generating a Bose-Einstein condensate. By using a laser-trap, the team were able to reverse the spin of some of the rubidium atoms in this state, and observed that once released from the trap, the atoms expanded and displayed properties of negative mass, in particular accelerating towards a pushing force instead of away from it.[22][23] This kind of negative effective mass is analogous to the well-known apparent negative effective mass of electrons in the upper part of the dispersion bands in solids[24]

~ ~ ~

Now. What can you do with Bondi's negative mass?  Plenty I'd say, because remember, the mass (hence the weight) of the system is zero, Your limitation is how much volume do you need to carry an equal mass to your ship? And of course, the system will be stable as long as you keep the negative mass sealed in a magnetic bottle and and within it a perfect vacuum, to avoid "disappearing mass."

For a small "negative mass balloon" you can make an hourglass container or a dumbbell shape where one side of the dumbbell contains positive mass and the other negative mass. The negative mass, located above the cabin for stability, like in a balloon envelope, and if it was like metallic solid liquid or gas, could be contained safely in a magnetic field. The other side of the dumbbell is the entire mass of the ship plus passengers plus the propulsion and weapon systems, as your hourglass/dumbbell will have near zero mass such that you can offset that non-zero weight by more conventional means (propellers. rotors).

I don't see why you could not make shapes other than a balloon. You could treat your ship as a neutrally buoyant airship and use aerodynamic body lift by pushing yourself with propellers. Or forget about aerodynamics and make the propulsion systems do all the work. You would determine the ultimate payload of the ship as being equal to the negative weight of the  "excess negative matter" which means you’d need to carry some disposable mass (e.g. water) in your system to push you down when your ship is empty. When you're ready to take a payload, you will have to dump in water the same mass your bringing up the ship - which the sailors will unceremoniously refer to as "whale piss"  Grin When you get to port and unload the ship you will have to refill your water tanks.

Now imagine battle damage. This could be serious. Because if the negative mass container is breached, the positive mass will "cancel out" an equal amount of positive mass in the vicinity. Not only would the ship fall to it's doom, but any sailors (or their body parts), plus anything else on the ship in the vicinity of a leak, would also be "erased" from existence upon contact with the mysterious Unobtanium.

So my guess is that flying ships would have to be very well armoured, or have various systems with "chambers" of negative mass, similar to sealable bulkheads.

Perhaps you should be looking at the Steam/Dieselpunk-ish Anime Series "Last Exile." While they don't refer to negative mass, they keep talking about a mysterious blue liquid named "Claudia," which is circulated through pipes coming out of a mysterious contraption...

Concept images and screenshots from Last Exile




Just an idea...

*Sitting comfortably on a large leather chair, wearing a kepi and a smoking jacket, Wilhelm blows soap bubbles out the smoking pipe*

J. Wilhelm....




« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:40:29 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged

Synistor 303
Gunner
**
Australia Australia


Zenyna Ironbracker


« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 12:15:43 pm »

Blimey, Wilhelm!  Shocked
Logged
Peter Brassbeard
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States



« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2017, 01:13:24 am »

Few people actually know how most modern technology works, (although this forum probably contains more who do than the average)...
Yes, there are a few Wizards around here Wink

Back to the original topic: A sailing ship can travel crosswise to the wind, or even in some cases some degree against the wind, because it has an ocean it can place a keel into to resist sideslip.  That's not really possible for an airship, baring some kind of "magic".  What is possible is selecting an altitude with relatively favorable wind, if such exists within the capability of the ship.

Another interesting option if you have ample capacity to adjust buoyancy, is a lifting structure to glide as the airship rises and descends.  How much, how fast, and how many times the buoyancy can adjust could play into a tactical situation.  Being chased, do you dare dump lifting gas hard to drop altitude hoping to refill your lift bag in time to avoid a hard landing?
Logged
polyphemus
Zeppelin Captain
*****

« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2017, 05:29:12 pm »



Plausible? What dat mean?
Logged

Polphemus Pomfret
"Don't be silly. He wouldn't write,"Aaarrgghhh!"
"Perhaps he was dictating."
Wormster
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United Kingdom United Kingdom



WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2017, 07:25:09 pm »

Sat behind polyphemus wid a hooge Ebil grin!!!!

(Icanhazawerkinprogres!)

(aplogies for the farcebook linky, hope it works!)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156186968192977&set=pb.711042976.-2207520000.1497894601.&type=3&theater

my take ona Steapunk Air Ships
Logged

We are the BEC,
And this we must confess,
Whatever is worth doing,
We'll do it to excess!
MWBailey
Rogue Ætherlord
*
United States United States


"This is the sort of thing no-one ever believes"

rtafStElmo
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2017, 10:59:45 pm »

Sat behind polyphemus wid a hooge Ebil grin!!!!

(Icanhazawerkinprogres!)

(aplogies for the farcebook linky, hope it works!)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156186968192977&set=pb.711042976.-2207520000.1497894601.&type=3&theater

my take ona Steapunk Air Ships



Can't see it.
Logged

Walk softly and carry a big banjo...

""quid statis aspicientes in infernum"
Wormster
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United Kingdom United Kingdom



WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2017, 07:50:25 am »

Oh daymm, will look at this later! - am offski to work now!
Logged
polyphemus
Zeppelin Captain
*****

« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2017, 12:36:35 am »

Logged
SkyCityPublishing
Swab

United States United States



« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2017, 05:30:17 am »

I wouldn't get bogged down writing a technical manual at the beginning of a story. Just assume that the ship works. Let it's capabilities and mysteries develop as the story unfolds. If the ship is going to be a character, treat it like one. Get the reader curious and feed them bits of info as the story evolves. Leave the reader wanting to know more and they'll keep reading. You don't have to explain anything in the beginning. As your story develops you can come up with information about the ship that works with the story.


I agree with Steamworkshop. I think that is one huge mistake many writers make. Writing pages and pages describing objects and scenery is just down right boring. I put the third book of the Dark Tower series down for like a year before picking it back up and powering through it for that reason. Just assume people know your ship flies, and describe some of it's cool features as you need them.
Logged
J. Wilhelm
╬ Admiral und Luftschiffengel ╬
Board Moderator
Immortal
**
United States United States


Sentisne fortunatum punkus? Veni. Diem meum comple


WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2017, 09:08:12 am »

There is no rule that says the author can't write a technical manual for him/her self. If the author wants to understand her technology, it is her provilege to work out the details beforehand.

JRR Tolkien started by inventing the languages and the mythology of Middle Earth before writing a single word of The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and Silmarillon. Not a very common route, I agree (how many people have invented a language before writing?), but it cemented what the characters would look like and behave like, so that when the actual writing began all the details needed were there.

You're not going to dictate the technical manual during the novel all at once. You just give bits and pieces here and there. That's the fun part of writing. You get to write interesting prologues and appendices, for the die-hard fan. The ship's manual is an appendix in the book.
Logged
SkyCityPublishing
Swab

United States United States



« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2017, 02:24:50 pm »

There is no rule that says the author can't write a technical manual for him/her self. If the author wants to understand her technology, it is her provilege to work out the details beforehand.

JRR Tolkien started by inventing the languages and the mythology of Middle Earth before writing a single word of The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and Silmarillon. Not a very common route, I agree (how many people have invented a language before writing?), but it cemented what the characters would look like and behave like, so that when the actual writing began all the details needed were there.

You're not going to dictate the technical manual during the novel all at once. You just give bits and pieces here and there. That's the fun part of writing. You get to write interesting prologues and appendices, for the die-hard fan. The ship's manual is an appendix in the book.

A technical manual could be in an appendix alongside others, that could be neat. I would read it there as opposed to reading it during the story.
Logged
SkyCityPublishing
Swab

United States United States



« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 02:28:21 pm »

A technical manual could be in an appendix alongside others, that could be neat. I would read it there as opposed to reading it during the story.
I'm too new to be able to edit my posts... An appendix would probably not be the greatest of ideas unless done right.
Logged
Eclectic mechanic
Swab

United States United States


« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 06:58:04 am »

Hi all, I made a prototype of an atomic drive for dirigibles a couple of years ago.  i'm a kinetic sculptor.  The bell shaped housing at the rear would contain a piece of a radioactive meteorite.  The coils in the center would be a series of tube filled with a fluid to super-heat and drive the propeller at the front.  The air generating thrust from the propeller would help keep the reactor from overheating.  All sound principles in reality, re-imagined in an earlier period. Attach two at the rear and fly around the world non stop.

https://www.facebook.com/ArtifactGarage/photos/a.217596875024228.46993.209323095851606/256663127784269/?type=3
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.182 seconds with 16 queries.