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Author Topic: Is Punk really part of Steampunk?  (Read 1363 times)
Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2017, 01:26:29 am »

Steampunks should be the makers, not the hecklers.
Well there you are, moderating has shown me there are always a lot of people with extremely differing views on what Steam/Diesel and probably all the Retro Punks should be. More examples, in an attempt to represent greater diversity than we see in some quarters, we post art, photography and historical articles featuring people who aren't necessarily white. Sad to say, we've actually had objections about it from certain quarters, who'd evidently prefer their Retro Punk to remain predominantly whitecentric. Knowing not all of our members identify as heterosexual, in acknowledgement of the gay marriage laws we made a post featuring an illustration of two male WW2 pilots leaning in for a kiss. Nothing explicit, but although it was appreciated in some quarters, it most decidedly was not in others and whoo boy did we hear about it.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 01:29:25 am by Argus Fairbrass » Logged

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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2017, 01:47:57 am »

Point being, we can make rules and set standards for our own group. We can even eject individuals we don't like, but we're under no illusions that applies to the wider subculture. These people are out there, they're involved and technically they have every right to be whether I agree with their bigoted opinions or not. There's also little I could do to stop them being involved regardless. I used to get annoyed occasionally by BG's refusal to get dragged into politics. Needless to say, after a few years of wearing the mod hat (which is by necessity a big steel helmet with frickin lasers on it) I am considerabely more sympathetic. So on that note, I shall say no more about politics.  Grin
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Sludge Van Diesel
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2017, 11:10:43 am »

the Ramones all voted Republican.
Not all.  In fact I believe it was only Johnny (a contributory factor to his worsening relationship with Joey (on top of their relationships with Linda)). 
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2017, 11:28:36 am »

Steampunks should be the makers, not the hecklers.
Well there you are, moderating has shown me there are always a lot of people with extremely differing views on what Steam/Diesel and probably all the Retro Punks should be. More examples, in an attempt to represent greater diversity than we see in some quarters, we post art, photography and historical articles featuring people who aren't necessarily white. Sad to say, we've actually had objections about it from certain quarters, who'd evidently prefer their Retro Punk to remain predominantly whitecentric. Knowing not all of our members identify as heterosexual, in acknowledgement of the gay marriage laws we made a post featuring an illustration of two male WW2 pilots leaning in for a kiss. Nothing explicit, but although it was appreciated in some quarters, it most decidedly was not in others and whoo boy did we hear about it.

That is sad and perplexing to read, though. I'm personally not aware of anyone being openly intolerant by way of racial origin or sexual orientation in this group... at least not yet. Unless certain elements in the subculture had motives and a fascination with the Diesel Period which is... let's say not recreational nor educational  Roll Eyes   It's not like the Diesel period did not exist all over the globe ("Newflash! WWII only happened in Europe and not further south than Gibraltar!"). Anyone who reads history would understand that global wars were, well... global  Roll Eyes  Undecided
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Fairley B. Strange
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2017, 01:12:52 pm »


here's punk




Are you quite sure that's Punk?

It does resemble Faggotry, or perhaps a type of Fascism...    Wink
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Argus Fairbrass
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So English even the English don't get it!


« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2017, 10:21:24 pm »

Sorry J, can't quote that much text, so this is @ you hehe. It is perplexing, but I would like to assure everybody things have got better. The reason I bring up the Dieselpunk group (Dieselpunk HQ on FB for anyone interested) is because obviously we have a lot of Steampunk members. Let's face it a lot of the same folks are interested in all the Retropunks, so you tend to encounter some familiar faces all over. We've mainly fought our battles now. The group is still growing, we continue to do what we do, and on the whole folks appear appreciative (they mostly seem to be sticking around). But yes we continue to represent diversity, because the greatest generation wasn't composed solely of straight, white, Christian men, and obviously the Steam/Diesel subcultures aren't either. It was a bit of an eye opener that some folks seemed to object to us acknowledging that initially, but I'm glad to say most disputes were settled through dialogue. Personally I much prefer that over the ban hammer.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 10:31:08 pm by Argus Fairbrass » Logged
Prof Marvel
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2017, 11:41:58 pm »


here's punk




Are you quite sure that's Punk?

It does resemble Faggotry, or perhaps a type of Fascism...    Wink


No worries, readily confused -

here is a bundle of faggot


and here is the thingy originally from ancient rome now associated with facism


apparently previously associated with guilds or syndicates...

Origin: 1915–20; < Italian fascismo, equivalent to fasc(io) bundle, political group (see fasces) + -ismo -ism

The term fascismo is derived from the Latin word fasces. The fasces, which consisted of a bundle of rods that were tied around an axe, was an ancient Roman symbol of the authority of the civic magistrate. They were carried by his lictors and could be used for corporal and capital punishment at his command. The word fascismo also relates to political organizations in Italy known as fasci, groups similar to guilds or syndicates. The symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity: a single rod is easily broken, while the bundle is difficult to break.


in the U.S. punk was formerly used to described soft semi-rotten material that burned easily and produced prodigious
quantities of smoke, such as ripe cattails or rotten ( ie "punky" ) wood.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2017, 02:06:31 am »

Yeah.  But the bundle of faggot around the axe is not just used for fascism; before we go ascribing the Fasces to the Fascists let's remember that the symbol was used first since the Age of Enlightenment for the concept of the Republic, so in the name of the United States (and other free republics worldwide) I must claim right to first use.  

In the Great Seal of France it is carried by lady Liberty,probably as a symbol of unity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_France


It is also the unofficial symbol of France :



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolism_in_the_French_Revolution
Quote
Fasces, like many other symbols of the French Revolution, are Roman in origin. Fasces are a bundle of birch rods containing an axe. In Roman times, the fasces symbolized the power of magistrates, representing union and accord with the Roman Republic. The French Republic continued this Roman symbol to represent state power, justice, and unity

The symbol also appears repeatedly in the American Republics, starting first with the United States and later in Latin American National coat of arms such as in Colombia and Ecuador. The Fasces is used as a symbol of the United States House of Representatives (ie the direct equivalent of the House of Commons in parliament in the UK), The US National Guard (the organized States' " Militia" outside the US Armed Forces) .. The list is endless. The symbol appears everywhere including currency.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
Quote
Fasces (/ˈfæsiːz/, (Italian: Fasci, Latin pronunciation: [ˈfa.skeːs], a plurale tantum, from the Latin word fascis, meaning "bundle")[1] is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe with its blade emerging. The fasces had its origin in the Etruscan civilization, and was passed on to ancient Rome, where it symbolized a magistrate's power and jurisdiction. The image has survived in the modern world as a representation of magisterial or collective power. The fasces frequently occurs as a charge in heraldry, it is present on an older design of the Mercury dime and behind the podium in the United States House of Representatives, it is used as the symbol of a number of Italian syndicalist groups, including the Unione Sindacale Italiana, and it was the origin of the name of the National Fascist Party in Italy (from which the term fascism is derived).

While the swastika – also a symbol with a long previous history – was deeply stigmatized by its association with Nazi Germany, the Fasces did not undergo a similar process because of association with Italian Fascism; its use remains acceptable in various legitimate contexts.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 02:09:20 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
MWBailey
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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2017, 06:34:29 am »

Funny thing... I started listening to a youtube post of the music from the Cowboy Bebop movie and the anime series as a sort of background "radio" for surfing, then logged in here and started looking around, and found this thread.

Thus, I'm reading everybody's comments here with those sometimes loving, sometimes harshly hateful cynical/philosophical lyrics in English and Japanese ringing through the back of my skull*. Too, I'm somewhat of the sector of the so-called "Maker" ilk that has always made things that we couldn't afford otherwise, or that nobody else made like we wanted. So, I tend to view and reply to newbie rants (like Fisk's, for example) about maker and steampunk culture being "dead," or somehow in the last stages of "dying" or punk or not punk, with my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek, and a jaundice of varying severity in my veins.

Mr. Fisk is opinionated, yes, and is sometimes somewhat hard to take from my vantage point (that of a guy who's more than just a couple of years older than him and has seen a lot more than he has of the world he rails against) at times, but at least his heart seems to me to be in it for the most part - though like most people who get into the podcast genre, a modicum of what he posts is (or often seems to be) purely for the sake of bombast, presumably for advertizing purposes, but also because that seems to be just the way he "is," so to speak. Not necessarily defending him or his words, but it's his opinion on his channel and in his podcasts, so...

But getting back to the background soundtrack; that's making me tend to view the whole thing from the position of the old man (a role I'm not entirely sure I want or deserve to play, but still) who sees the kids getting all bent over something that's not really all that important in the greater scheme of things.

Steampunk, in at least one sense, did not actually exist at some point in the past. It might very well not exist (or not in a form that we today would necessarily recognize) at some point in the future, But... folk who make their own stuff, and love the old "future" enough to dream about it will continue to crop up, because one still needs to make things work - and make things to make things work - at least until that locomotive that's over 90 years old and barely runs can be replaced or refurbished.

To do that, you need imagination, and the idea of something that  might have existed, if only reality were kind  enough - and the ability to make things that refer to that dream (so that you have the experience and skills to make things for the real world).

Or such are the retro-future anime jazz-philosophical thoughts running through my head right now...

https://youtu.be/3rYYzKo6S9g

Very much my state of mind just now^

OK, so I'm kinda bombastic myself. That's why I think I might have a line on Fisk's mindset.
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« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 10:01:37 am by MWBailey » Logged

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MWBailey
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rtafStElmo
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2017, 04:17:17 pm »

Hopefully I didn't kill this thread too...
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Fairley B. Strange
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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2017, 10:08:35 pm »

Hopefully I didn't kill this thread too...

Well, as a thread that can survive my wordplay japes and respond with history and heraldry in lieu of the flaming one would have expected out on the wider aetherweb, I sincerely doubt you've even dented it.

This is one of the better features of Steampunk, whether it be punk or no.
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MWBailey
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rtafStElmo
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2017, 10:33:31 pm »

Hopefully I didn't kill this thread too...

Well, as a thread that can survive my wordplay japes and respond with history and heraldry in lieu of the flaming one would have expected out on the wider aetherweb, I sincerely doubt you've even dented it.

This is one of the better features of Steampunk, whether it be punk or no.



LOL. Agreed!
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Prof Marvel
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« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2017, 03:23:34 am »

Hopefully I didn't kill this thread too...

Oh No, My Good Bailey - we won't let you off that easily!

I must admit, much of my rant was the "grumpy old bartstitch reacting to the whines of the new kid", and especially since he seems to have not "paid his dues". However,  I put myself at the risk of being hypocritical - whilst an inventor and small scale builder of sorts, I cannot claim even a fraction of the credentials of the awesome makers on this here forum.

MR Fisk undoubtedly suffers from the need to create drama in order to achieve buzz and hits on his media sites. However, he IS entitled to his opinion even when it is wrong .  I on the other hand deliberately labor in the shadows and due to my obsession for privacy, it is a constant  quandary to me whether or not to publish photos of my stuff.
After all, for the last 25 years I have been .. never mind. privacy rant not req'd.

As a longtime fan of GITS,  Bebop, Champloo, and now Gangsta, I can relate to your thinking....

love the soundtracks... even when ... harsh?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


My Dear J -

yes, actually, I think we are in agreement vis-a-vis the origins and continued use of the "bundle" and thus the actual meaning of "unity".

It s only in recent years, via the fame of WW2,  that the fascists were able to gain more publicity of their use of the symbol.

Much like the ancient India, Hindu, and Navajo "whirling logs" or "whirlwind" symbol called a "swastika" that were usurped by
adolph & company. :-(

yhs
prof marvel


« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 03:27:17 am by Prof Marvel » Logged
Atterton
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« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2017, 05:04:55 pm »

The romans were the first ones using the fascies. They also began as a republic.
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« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2017, 07:17:14 am »

The romans were the first ones using the fascies. They also began as a republic.

Naturally. See the wiki link "Facses" in my post above.
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« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2017, 07:36:37 am »

But in all seriousness, is the use of the Faces and the word Fascism nothing more than a symbol appropriation started in Mussolini's Italy? I guess there are other symbols that more appropriately are associated with Fascism - which we all know to ALSO have been cultural appropriations - or rather misappropriations, like the Swastika and the Sun Wheel. Even the mediaeval "Wolfsangel" (wolf trap) is a symbol misappropriated even today by right wing and white nationalist groups.  Misappropriation which by the way started as mysticism in the 19th. C and eventually was incorporated into national socialist neo-Germanic cultist ideology.... It's just that the Fasces is not associated so much with Fascism as the other symbols are. I'm perfectly happy with that. The Republic's symbol for "Order" should not be perverted into something dark.

But leaving all nasty xenophobic/cultist behaviour aside, and changing the subject, Steampunk does have one or two symbols  Grin Does it not? Like The Cog or Sprocket. The Zeppelin. The Goggles?  Grin

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Prof Marvel
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« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2017, 02:24:32 am »

But in all seriousness, is the use of the Faces and the word Fascism nothing more than a symbol appropriation started in Mussolini's Italy? I guess there are other symbols that more appropriately are associated with Fascism - which we all know to ALSO have been cultural appropriations - or rather misappropriations, like the Swastika and the Sun Wheel. Even the mediaeval "Wolfsangel" (wolf trap) is a symbol misappropriated even today by right wing and white nationalist groups.  Misappropriation which by the way started as mysticism in the 19th. C and eventually was incorporated into national socialist neo-Germanic cultist ideology.... It's just that the Fasces is not associated so much with Fascism as the other symbols are. I'm perfectly happy with that. The Republic's symbol for "Order" should not be perverted into something dark.


ummm
I believe I pointed that out...
unless I am on "ignore lists"

pf mvl
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« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2017, 04:30:20 am »

But in all seriousness, is the use of the Faces and the word Fascism nothing more than a symbol appropriation started in Mussolini's Italy? I guess there are other symbols that more appropriately are associated with Fascism - which we all know to ALSO have been cultural appropriations - or rather misappropriations, like the Swastika and the Sun Wheel. Even the mediaeval "Wolfsangel" (wolf trap) is a symbol misappropriated even today by right wing and white nationalist groups.  Misappropriation which by the way started as mysticism in the 19th. C and eventually was incorporated into national socialist neo-Germanic cultist ideology.... It's just that the Fasces is not associated so much with Fascism as the other symbols are. I'm perfectly happy with that. The Republic's symbol for "Order" should not be perverted into something dark.


ummm
I believe I pointed that out...
unless I am on "ignore lists"

pf mvl

Indeed you did. I guess we're going in circles now...

Need a new topic!
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Fairley B. Strange
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« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2017, 02:06:07 pm »

Well, we could instead build a Steampunk armoured land-crawler to carry a fascine...



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Atterton
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« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2017, 09:59:46 am »

The romans and nazis used the fascies to symbolize the same thing though, strength through unity.
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« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2017, 11:02:34 am »

The romans and nazis used the fascies to symbolize the same thing though, strength through unity.


Same as the Republic. But we need to get out from this rhetorical roundabout (traffic circle in the US)

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annevpreussen
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« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2017, 06:29:07 pm »

Same as the Republic. But we need to get out from this rhetorical roundabout (traffic circle in the US)

I'm from the U.S. and I've never heard anyone call it a traffic circle! We call it a roundabout here as well (or at least we do in my area).

Does anyone want to comment on the "steampunk is just goths wearing brown" thing?
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« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2017, 02:24:50 am »

Same as the Republic. But we need to get out from this rhetorical roundabout (traffic circle in the US)

I'm from the U.S. and I've never heard anyone call it a traffic circle! We call it a roundabout here as well (or at least we do in my area).

Does anyone want to comment on the "steampunk is just goths wearing brown" thing?

Well, that's according to Wiki  Tongue Tongue I wouldn't know because I wasn't raised in the US; and in California and Texas where I have lived I never saw one   Grin(that I remember). They were commonplace in Mexico.

Well, what I can say about Steampunk and Goth is mostly related to age. I can't comment on when the migration and overlapping started exactly, but probably around the mid 90's, as Goth began to wear Steampunk clothing. There is some evidence it's a pattern repeated every time Steampunk emerges in a new place.

From my understanding, as well as my experience in the Texas Steampunks and Steampunk Mexico fora, when the Steampunk movement starts in a new area, it tends to be populated by younger people, as a rule of thumb. In Mexico (as of the inception of the forum in 2010), the males tended to be Goths around college age, and the females tended to be high school girls into Anime and Japanese Moe culture in general (Lolita et. al.). In contrast British and American Steampunks were older at the time.

As the Steampunk movement matures in an area (a given country, continent, etc.) my experience is that the median age in the group tends to rise, as the movement matures. Either by word of mouth, spreading the movement, or because time passes and those young Steamers also mature in age. In English speaking countries, where the movement started a long time ago, you see a median age that is higher than college age and you see kids, young adults, middle aged people and old people all mingling together (like in this forum for example) - so I don't know what the median age is exactly, but for us at BG it's got to be relatively high.

If you think about it, migrating from Goth to Steampunk is rather natural, as a lot of Goth is based on Victoriana (Bram Stoker's Dracula, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein), so the aesthetics are in place. Young people will try many different things when young before settling on something.

But at the same time, at some point in your life, when you're balding and have a paunch for a stomach, the tight leather, fake fangs, whips and chains don't look so good, eh?  Tongue  Grin  In contrast, Steampunk looks better on you the older you are  Wink  Grin
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 02:27:12 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2017, 10:52:42 am »

Does anyone want to comment on the "steampunk is just goths wearing brown" thing?
Well I still wear black in the evenings, or cream and beige in summer if that helps hehe. Yeah the whole Goths in brown thing is kinda annoying. They exist, but can I wear colours? tended to be a fairly common question from newcomers, proving the perception of a brown 'n' brass uniform was a real thing. There were a number of Goths that jumped all over Steampunk a few years back. I'd list Abney Park as an example. That also led to objections from other quarters, who clearly failed to understand what possible attraction SP could have to those (in their eyes) miserable, insular black haired types. I guess the Neo Victorian aspects of Goth passed them by (in fairness the Cyber/Rivet trends had become rather dominant). Still mix Cyber/Rivet with Neo Victoriana and what do you have? The first person to say "Dreadpunk" receives -10 cred damage.
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« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2017, 01:13:36 pm »

The biggest difference between Goth and Steampunk is that Steampunks can smile without breaking character.

Sadly, I cannot take credit for that line.
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