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Author Topic: Protocol Of War ? : Inquiry About A Quite Scary Rule Of Proto-Modern Chivalry  (Read 401 times)
chicar
Rogue Ætherlord
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Canada Canada


Student in Techno-Shamanism and Lyncanthrope

Chicar556
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« on: January 21, 2017, 04:34:22 pm »

Lets Begin By A Illustration:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zSowOS4Wyg



Why don't the english imediatly reciprocate ? Why one army have to wait to reciprocate to the first blow ? Why do they do war like if this was a bloody turn-based strategy game. And don't tell me is a weapon range problem, if they can kill you, you can kill them.

I knew than between the melee of the pre-gunpowder era and the melee of the post-WW1 era they were decorum to respect in war, but i don't knew than it involved looking right in the eyes of death with a upper lisp interminable minutes before finally be able to at last listen to your more basic survival instincts.

WHY ? I am so ignorant of the reality of war to think than when you are threatened of death NATURE COMMAND YOU to defend yourself ? Do my 21th century mindset that much barbaric ?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 04:40:42 pm by chicar » Logged

The word pagan came from paganus , who mean peasant . Its was a way to significate than christianism was the religion of the elite and paganism the one of the savage worker class.

''Trickster shows us how we trick OURSELVES. Her rampant curiosity backfires, but, then, something NEW is discovered (though usually not what She expected)! This is where creativity comes from—experiment, do something different, maybe even something forbidden, and voila! A breakthrough occurs! Ha! Ha! We are released! The world is created anew! Do something backwards, break your own traditions, the barrier breaks; destroy the world as you know it, let the new in.''
Extract of the Dreamflesh article ''Path of The Sacred Clown''
Atterton
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Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2017, 05:05:45 pm »

Queensbury rules?
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von Corax
Squire of the Lambda Calculus
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Prof. Darwin Prætorius von Corax


« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2017, 08:21:36 pm »

Bloody stupid way to earn a living...
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By the Beans of Life do my thoughts acquire speed
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The Leverkusen Institute of Paleocybernetics is 5838 km from Reading
Fairley B. Strange
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2017, 09:17:57 pm »

Why the advancing infantry don't stop to fire?
Momentum.
To fire a musket volley is an elaborate drill movement with much shouting of orders and clockwork actions.
To stop and organise the troops do so in those circumstances is to allow the opponent even more time to continue shooting.
The charge will falter, and probably not start forward again, then it will just be two armies trying to cut each other down with more volleys.
By continuing forward, there will hopefully still be enough of the larger attacking force alive and with their rifles still all loaded when the contest closes to bayonet distance and a fair proportion of the other guys are mid-reloading to win that stage of the fight.
As VonCorax says, not the most refined strategy but the style of that era - changing only slightly from when it was phalanxes and cohorts and the rain was arrows and javelin, to when it was fixed machinegun positions and barbedwire in the First Global Unpleasantness..
Tactics have updated somewhat in the mechanical age, but in some instances - e.g. jungle or urban ambushes where the other chaps are in a position with an open field of fire you've just bumbled into, the only 'safe' option is to counterintuitively run towards them, although these days firing as you do so is a lot simpler and therefore encouraged, but still with the goal that getting in close enough with your own weapons fire means that they lose that positional advantage, just stopping in the killing zone leaves you stuck in their preferred shooting plan at a disadvantage, and running away just means they have longer to shoot you in the back.
Hence all that 'army shouty obedience to discipline' stuff, it's to overcome the natural instinct to run away
War is often rather like designing a meatgrinder where the on switch is outside and the off switch is inside - whoever set it to start, some poor bugger has to reach in to turn it off.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 09:32:13 pm by Fairley B. Strange » Logged

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chicar
Rogue Ætherlord
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Canada Canada


Student in Techno-Shamanism and Lyncanthrope

Chicar556
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2017, 11:56:29 pm »

Definitely make more sens seem that way.  Grin
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Banfili
Zeppelin Captain
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Australia Australia



« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2017, 12:39:13 am »

Another major problem was the notorious inaccuracy of the weapon coupled with the inaccuracy of the average soldier.
The charge in the musket was not powerful enough to fire accurately from a long distance, one reason why there are usually so many musket balls scattered over these old battlegrounds. You had to be within 'whites of their eyes' distance to guarantee some kind of hit, let alone a killing shot. Before the introduction of standardised powder cartridges - in place of individuals pouring the loose powder down the barrel, then ramming a wad of cloth and the ball down the barrel - it was easy to over-charge your musket, and if you over-charged the musket you risked it blowing up in your face.
Not too mention the failure of the flint to strike! In some cases the weapon was so unreliable they weren't fired at all, just used as very handy thrusting spear, or a club!

The video itself is a bit misleading, as the static soldiers are not shown reloading. Generally, the first kneeling row would fire first, then, as they reloaded the second row would fire, then the third. By the time the third row had fired the first row would have reloaded and been ready to fire, and so on. The video also errs, I think, in the number of injuries/deaths received via each volley, and in the distance from the redcoats that the static soldiers fired - way too early!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 12:47:43 am by Banfili » Logged
von Corax
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Prof. Darwin Prætorius von Corax


« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2017, 03:16:15 am »

The video itself is a bit misleading, as the static soldiers are not shown reloading. Generally, the first kneeling row would fire first, then, as they reloaded the second row would fire, then the third. By the time the third row had fired the first row would have reloaded and been ready to fire, and so on. The video also errs, I think, in the number of injuries/deaths received via each volley, and in the distance from the redcoats that the static soldiers fired - way too early!

I had that thought too, but don't consider myself expert enough to have commended on it.

Another major problem was the notorious inaccuracy of the weapon coupled with the inaccuracy of the average soldier.
The charge in the musket was not powerful enough to fire accurately from a long distance, one reason why there are usually so many musket balls scattered over these old battlegrounds. You had to be within 'whites of their eyes' distance to guarantee some kind of hit, let alone a killing shot. Before the introduction of standardised powder cartridges - in place of individuals pouring the loose powder down the barrel, then ramming a wad of cloth and the ball down the barrel - it was easy to over-charge your musket, and if you over-charged the musket you risked it blowing up in your face.
Not too mention the failure of the flint to strike! In some cases the weapon was so unreliable they weren't fired at all, just used as very handy thrusting spear, or a club!

Charge power was certainly a factor, but an even larger factor was that the fact of the musket firing a spherical projectile down a smooth bore meant the bullets were subject to a strong Magnus effect. The bullet would usually pick up top-spin from rolling down the bottom of the barrel, and as a result would abruptly hook downward once its velocity dropped enough for the ærodynamic forces to dominate, which happened at around "whites-of-the-eyes" range. In some cases, say if the musket had a bent barrel, the ball might instead pick up side- or back-spin and hook to one side or even upwards.

TL/DNR: The musket ball's trajectory becomes more unpredictable the farther it flies, and at a certain range abruptly becomes wildly more unpredictable.

Also, after the third or fourth volley the smoke meant you had to be close to even see the enemy.
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Banfili
Zeppelin Captain
*****
Australia Australia



« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2017, 06:30:14 am »

Another factor I thought of was that the quality of the powder wasn't always consistent - the coarser the grind, the lower the quality and the more you needed for the charge. Very fined corned gunpowder was best.

Have had another look at the video - apart from not reloading, static troops look too far away for such deadly accuracy. At that range the ball loses a lot of power, so you might get hit by a ball, but it may not even draw blood.

Is the video from a re-enactor group, or tv/film?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 06:36:09 am by Banfili » Logged
chicar
Rogue Ætherlord
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Canada Canada


Student in Techno-Shamanism and Lyncanthrope

Chicar556
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2017, 02:44:46 pm »

Is the video from a re-enactor group, or tv/film?

''From: Barry Lyndon''
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Banfili
Zeppelin Captain
*****
Australia Australia



« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2017, 03:16:40 pm »

OK, from a film - not the greatest level of accuracy! The British advance was pretty much right, with second and third ranks advancing into the vacant spots as their fellow soldiers fell, and the opposition position also pretty much right, but as I haven't seen the film haven't seen the full scenes. It's the bits in the middle that are the problem - bodies falling everywhere, but surprisingly not a lot of blood for such a level of carnage - obviously too far away really for effective musket fire. Also, no images of front, centre and rear ranks reloading on the enemy's side. Needed a decent continuity expert in league with a military reconstructionist!! Grin

It was not always such stiff-upper-lippishness and good order!
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bicyclebuilder
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2017, 10:07:59 pm »

I think, with the reloading problem on both sides, the tactics would be as in a football-match.
You want to fire more bullets, have more rows of gunmen. Want a wider range, have longer rows, but less of them. Reading the enemies plan and acting on it, would have been a real life, advanced game of "Risk".

With the same mindset of the reloading problem, it also wouldn't matter if the attire was camouflaged. There where no snipers, because the guns weren't accurate. Hiding for the enemy, with only one bullet to fire at ones, doesn't make any sense. So, in order to keep the soldiers fearless, they hid the bloodstains in bright red coats. And brown pants to hide....  Lips sealed
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Banfili
Zeppelin Captain
*****
Australia Australia



« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2017, 10:55:05 pm »

The advancing redcoats couldn't shoot and stop to reload - so they kept their shots to the last moment, then a bayonet charge! Being on the move did help a bit, as it would throw off the range for the static opposition.
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