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Author Topic: Help requested on a foray into electro-magnetism  (Read 1264 times)
The Amber Automaton
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United States United States


« on: November 19, 2016, 11:18:50 am »

Good morning (or afternoon, or evening as the case may be), While browsing online photos I came across an old scientific electronic instrument of a steamy nature.It seems to be a simple electromagnetic motor or an invention based upon a similar principle. The components I am sure I either have or could produce easily enough however I have no idea what this device is called in solid terms and even less of an idea of where to go about finding examples of its' construction. I would like, if possible, to devise a way to make my own similar to this and connect it either to a battery array or suitable generation apparatus. Any and all help is greatly appreciated of course, and should this endeavor bear fruit then this forum shall be the first to see photos.

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Miranda.T
Zeppelin Captain
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United Kingdom United Kingdom



« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2016, 12:30:53 pm »

I'm guessing it's a model dc electric motor. Typically you make these using a coil on a former leading to split rings (or for very simple versions just the bare ends of the coil wire held in place by a rubber band on either side of the spindle) with permanent magnets to provide the magnetic field, but it looks like this one has the outer coil (fixed) to provide the field with the inner coil rotating; I guess the split ring is hidden in the stand. I think both coils are just powered by a dc supply attached via the terminals at the base.

A quick search for 'dc electric motor' pulls up plenty of tutorials (e.g. http://www.hometrainingtools.com/a/build-motor-project), but it would be rather nice to build a properly Steampunked version. If you do start work on this, please do post up WIP pictures!

Yours,
Miranda.

P.S. If you do make a version take care to start with low level supplies (e.g. just one AA battery to start) and work up, checking how hot the coils are getting in operation. These things need a relatively high current to give strong enough magentic fields and so can get rather hot.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 12:35:04 pm by Miranda.T » Logged
The Amber Automaton
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United States United States


« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2016, 02:11:12 pm »

im familiar enough with the simple DC motors as i made one from paperclips in a tv remote as a trick before. The puzzling bit for me though is figuring out how one like this would work as im a very visual learner... i can hear or see something done once and learn it but reading just doesnt do as much with technical things at least. I was planning on a small battery pack or possibly have it as a curiosity on my sewing table, running for a bit of electrical whimsy as i treadle the sewing machine with a dynamo running off it maybe.
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RJBowman
Zeppelin Captain
*****


« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2016, 04:17:11 pm »

I have seen photographs of early radio tuning coils similar in design to this, except that there should be a knob for turning the internal coil within the outer coil.

I think that you probably could build an electric motor like this, but I've never seen one.

For it to work as a motor, the small coil would have to get it's power through a commutator (rotary switching device) which would have to be concealed inside the candlestick or its base. But given that this looks like a laboratory or teaching device designed to be seen, it seems odd to me that the builder would conceal the commutator, which is a fairly interesting device in itself.

Also, it is odd that a motor would be built with "air cores", which is to say that the coils have no cores at all. If you look at any electric motor, AC or DC, you will find that the coils are wound around steel or iron cores, usually (in modern motors) made of laminated sheet metal.

I can think of one type of motor that uses air coils and has no commutator, and that is an electric meter. The meter has two coils, or sometimes one coil and a permanent magnet, which produce force in opposition to a spring when a current is applied. Since the meter only moves until the magnetic force and the spring are in equilibrium, and does not rotate fully, no commutator.

So what I think is shown in this photo is some kind of electrical detector or indicator; when a small current passes through the coil, the internal coil moves slightly to signal to the operator that a current is present, but does not spin like a true motor. There may be a week spring inside the pedestal or base to move the coil back into resting position when the current stops.
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Steerpike
Officer
***
United Kingdom United Kingdom


« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2016, 05:43:07 pm »

With a bit of digging in Google image search I've ID'd this as An "Electro-dynamic Revolving Ring apparatus".
A short article here: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjI-YuRm7XQAhUqBMAKHdGRA8MQFggyMAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fphysics.kenyon.edu%2FEarlyApparatus%2FDaniel_Davis_Apparatus%2FElectro-dynamic_Revolving_Coil%2FElectro-dynamic%2520Revolving_Coil.html&usg=AFQjCNFjR4yH4WGn8GFzgXgMxmy8E1yBtg
explaines what it does- basically it's a piece of kit to demonstrate the principles on which a DC motor operates (there is a commutator on the inner coil).

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Hektor Plasm
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United Kingdom United Kingdom


All-Round Oddfellow.


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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2016, 06:40:33 pm »

My first thought was AC motor- I didn't see the commutator; but I found this...


Which does look similar, like a lab demo version.

Eee, Mr Tesla!

HP
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"all die! o, the embarrassment."
H Plasm Esq. ICUE    Avatar by and with kind permission of Dr Geof. Ta!!

Some musings:-
http://hektorplasm.blogspot.co.uk/
RJBowman
Zeppelin Captain
*****


« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2016, 07:21:53 pm »



Tesla's AC motors didn't have commutators as they are normally understood; the power transfers to the rotating armature by way of electromagnetic induction. This was a sufficiently weird technology in the 19th century that other electrical engineers couldn't understand it or refused to believe that it could work, and Tesla's college professor accused him of trying to build a perpetual motion machine.

Thank you for the link to the image. If I had the time, i might try to build one of these.
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Hektor Plasm
Zeppelin Captain
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United Kingdom United Kingdom


All-Round Oddfellow.


WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2016, 09:59:55 pm »


Thank you for the link to the image. If I had the time, i might try to build one of these.

You are welcome- and things like this are certainly on my to-make list!

HP
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Miranda.T
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United Kingdom United Kingdom



« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2016, 10:56:42 pm »

im familiar enough with the simple DC motors as i made one from paperclips in a tv remote as a trick before. The puzzling bit for me though is figuring out how one like this would work as im a very visual learner... i can hear or see something done once and learn it but reading just doesnt do as much with technical things at least. I was planning on a small battery pack or possibly have it as a curiosity on my sewing table, running for a bit of electrical whimsy as i treadle the sewing machine with a dynamo running off it maybe.

Well, this would not be that much different from the one you've made. So the rotating part of yours was a paperclip? The equivalent in your picture if the red and yellow coil. It would rotate on a vertical axis with the slit ring (or commutator if you prefer) situated at its base, with wires running up from the terminals at the base in, I think, in the orange rod (the one on the other side must be hidden by the brass stem). Presumably you used permanent magnets with yours. Here that's replaced with the (fixed) green and white coil; just connect this to the same wires you are using to power the rotating coil. I hope you can get one working as it does sound like a fun thing to have it pulse around every time the sewing machine's treadle is pressed.

Yours,
Miranda.
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RJBowman
Zeppelin Captain
*****


« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2016, 12:11:51 am »


Thank you for the link to the image. If I had the time, i might try to build one of these.

You are welcome- and things like this are certainly on my to-make list!

HP

If you decide to make one of these, notice that the coils are wound with cloth-insulated wire. Most motors today use varnished wire because it makes for denser coils. Cloth-insulated wire is scarce these days, but I have found it for sale on the internet; it seems that some people like to use it to make electric guitar cables.
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Hektor Plasm
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United Kingdom United Kingdom


All-Round Oddfellow.


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2016, 11:29:28 am »


Thank you for the link to the image. If I had the time, i might try to build one of these.

You are welcome- and things like this are certainly on my to-make list!

HP

If you decide to make one of these, notice that the coils are wound with cloth-insulated wire. Most motors today use varnished wire because it makes for denser coils. Cloth-insulated wire is scarce these days, but I have found it for sale on the internet; it seems that some people like to use it to make electric guitar cables.

Indeed, cloth covered wire is essential- doubly so if it is coily! (new word alert!).

I've also just found some good old-fashioned varnished cloth tube insulation and some nice, big paxolin washers!
What I really need is a big box of cheap knurled terminal thumbscrews in brass- they are either steel or mega expensive.

...And that sort of thing <i>smells</i> so nice!
HP


edit for bad use of 'quoting'
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 06:22:29 pm by Hektor Plasm » Logged
RJBowman
Zeppelin Captain
*****


« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2016, 05:36:05 am »

With a bit of digging in Google image search I've ID'd this as An "Electro-dynamic Revolving Ring apparatus".
A short article here: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjI-YuRm7XQAhUqBMAKHdGRA8MQFggyMAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fphysics.kenyon.edu%2FEarlyApparatus%2FDaniel_Davis_Apparatus%2FElectro-dynamic_Revolving_Coil%2FElectro-dynamic%2520Revolving_Coil.html&usg=AFQjCNFjR4yH4WGn8GFzgXgMxmy8E1yBtg
explaines what it does- basically it's a piece of kit to demonstrate the principles on which a DC motor operates (there is a commutator on the inner coil).

These pictures make it a little clearer; the commutator brushes are more visible.
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Hektor Plasm
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United Kingdom United Kingdom


All-Round Oddfellow.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2016, 06:23:13 pm »


Thank you for the link to the image. If I had the time, i might try to build one of these.

You are welcome- and things like this are certainly on my to-make list!

HP

If you decide to make one of these, notice that the coils are wound with cloth-insulated wire. Most motors today use varnished wire because it makes for denser coils. Cloth-insulated wire is scarce these days, but I have found it for sale on the internet; it seems that some people like to use it to make electric guitar cables.

Indeed, cloth covered wire is essential- doubly so if it is coily! (new word alert!).

I've also just found some good old-fashioned varnished cloth tube insulation and some nice, big paxolin washers!
What I really need is a big box of cheap knurled terminal thumbscrews in brass- they are either steel or mega expensive.

...And that sort of thing smells so nice!
HP


edit for bad use of 'quoting'
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Hektor Plasm
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United Kingdom United Kingdom


All-Round Oddfellow.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2016, 10:41:11 pm »


Thank you for the link to the image. If I had the time, i might try to build one of these.

You are welcome- and things like this are certainly on my to-make list!

HP
Quote

If you decide to make one of these, notice that the coils are wound with cloth-insulated wire. Most motors today use varnished wire because it makes for denser coils. Cloth-insulated wire is scarce these days, but I have found it for sale on the internet; it seems that some people like to use it to make electric guitar cables.

Indeed, cloth covered wire is essential- doubly so if it is coily! (new word alert!).

I've also just found some good old-fashioned varnished cloth tube insulation and some nice, big paxolin washers!
What I really need is a big box of cheap knurled terminal thumbscrews in brass- they are either steel or mega expensive.

...And that sort of thing smells so nice!
HP


edit for bad use of 'quoting'
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The Amber Automaton
Deck Hand
*
United States United States


« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 07:16:11 am »


Quote
Indeed, cloth covered wire is essential- doubly so if it is coily! (new word alert!).

I've also just found some good old-fashioned varnished cloth tube insulation and some nice, big paxolin washers!


Is this an online source or did you find such in real life?
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The Amber Automaton
Deck Hand
*
United States United States


« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2016, 04:15:12 pm »

additionally is this motor design based off of a similar enough principle to what Im trying to make, because the diagram to making it looks easy enough to follow I would just need to make it circular and not linear, correct?

http://bizarrelabs.com/motor1.htm
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RJBowman
Zeppelin Captain
*****


« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2016, 06:07:55 pm »

additionally is this motor design based off of a similar enough principle to what Im trying to make, because the diagram to making it looks easy enough to follow I would just need to make it circular and not linear, correct?

http://bizarrelabs.com/motor1.htm


The nested rings are more picturesque, but the cork and three nails look like they'd be easier to build.
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The Amber Automaton
Deck Hand
*
United States United States


« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2016, 08:27:23 pm »

additionally is this motor design based off of a similar enough principle to what Im trying to make, because the diagram to making it looks easy enough to follow I would just need to make it circular and not linear, correct?

http://bizarrelabs.com/motor1.htm


The nested rings are more picturesque, but the cork and three nails look like they'd be easier to build.


right, im planning on the nested rings as i have more than enough brass and gadgets to make rings but was mostly just curious if i could take those instructions and modify them for rings instead of the nails in a cork
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Miranda.T
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United Kingdom United Kingdom



« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2016, 09:34:25 pm »

additionally is this motor design based off of a similar enough principle to what Im trying to make, because the diagram to making it looks easy enough to follow I would just need to make it circular and not linear, correct?

http://bizarrelabs.com/motor1.htm


The nested rings are more picturesque, but the cork and three nails look like they'd be easier to build.


right, im planning on the nested rings as i have more than enough brass and gadgets to make rings but was mostly just curious if i could take those instructions and modify them for rings instead of the nails in a cork


Pretty much - just adjust the setup to as shown in this schematic:



Yours,
Miranda.
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RJBowman
Zeppelin Captain
*****


« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2016, 10:29:00 pm »

There's a trick to making those ring coils.

Since we have links to more than one example of the exact same design of this device, it is probably that they were manufactured for use by educational institutions, and the manufacturer would have had tooling and jigs to make everything come out perfect every time.

Notice that they are wound around cardboard rings, but have to side walls. My guess is that the cardboard ring was probably clamped between two wooden disks when the winding was done, so as to create that perfect rectangular cross section. The whole assembly would have had an axle in the middle to allow it to rotate as the wire windings were applied. If those stripes are, as I believe, bands of tape, there probably would have been slots cut into the wooden disks to allow the tape to be applied before the disks were removed. It also looks to me like the windings were coated with shellac, which is a common technique to create solid permanent windings.

Someone should be able to build a similar jig in a well equipped home wood shop, and make coils as perfect as these.
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The Amber Automaton
Deck Hand
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United States United States


« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2016, 10:53:29 pm »

many thanks Miranda!
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The Amber Automaton
Deck Hand
*
United States United States


« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2016, 10:59:17 pm »

There's a trick to making those ring coils.

Since we have links to more than one example of the exact same design of this device, it is probably that they were manufactured for use by educational institutions, and the manufacturer would have had tooling and jigs to make everything come out perfect every time.

Notice that they are wound around cardboard rings, but have to side walls. My guess is that the cardboard ring was probably clamped between two wooden disks when the winding was done, so as to create that perfect rectangular cross section. The whole assembly would have had an axle in the middle to allow it to rotate as the wire windings were applied. If those stripes are, as I believe, bands of tape, there probably would have been slots cut into the wooden disks to allow the tape to be applied before the disks were removed. It also looks to me like the windings were coated with shellac, which is a common technique to create solid permanent windings.

Someone should be able to build a similar jig in a well equipped home wood shop, and make coils as perfect as these.


I was planning on using cloth covered wire if i can find, salvage or make it enough for my purpose, soak the cloth insulation in some sort of non conductive adhesive and wrap it around a mandrel with guides to keep the sides even, then once the glue dries remove the side disks and slip it off the mandrel. The stripes dont look like tape but some sort of paint or doping, it may have been structural or it may be just for contrast visually as the device is in motion.( currently my working theory)
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Hektor Plasm
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United Kingdom United Kingdom


All-Round Oddfellow.


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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2016, 10:20:05 pm »


Quote
Indeed, cloth covered wire is essential- doubly so if it is coily! (new word alert!).

I've also just found some good old-fashioned varnished cloth tube insulation and some nice, big paxolin washers!


Is this an online source or did you find such in real life?

I found the washers and insulation on Ebby, and some clothy wire on a special offer from a Chinese supplier, if that helps?

HP
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SPBrewer
Zeppelin Captain
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United States United States


Sky Pirate Brewer


« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2017, 10:25:56 am »

If you follow this post:
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34837.0.html
You will find a link to John D. Jenkins Spark Museum.  As I said the book is well worth the asking price and will give one many ideas for Steampunk creations.
Also, if you go into his web sites Motors page you will find a motor almost identical to the one in your post.
See:
http://www.sparkmuseum.com/MOTORS.HTM
Scroll down to "Other Early Motors" and the one I am talking about is just above the words "Other Early".

Stan aka The Sky Pirate


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The Sky Pirate
Captain of the "Queen Victoria's Revenge"

SPBrewer
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States


Sky Pirate Brewer


« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2017, 10:28:35 am »

P.S. the paint job on the motor in your post reminds me of a Coral Snake, except the Coral Snake has red and yellow next to each other.
I always remember that from the little saying "Red and Yellow, kills a fellow!"
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