The Steampunk Forum at Brass Goggles
November 18, 2017, 02:05:18 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Support BrassGoggles! Donate once or $3/mo.
 See details here.
 
   Home   Blog Help Rules Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The actual time frame.  (Read 1275 times)
Darcy Ravenswood
Swab

United States United States



« on: May 30, 2016, 10:23:55 pm »

Dear Persons Well Versed in the Steampunk Arts,

I was wondering, what are the actual accepted dates/time periods of Steampunk?

Is the beginning of SPtime early Edwardian? Before that? I generally accept that Steampunk time ends around the beginning of Dieselpunk time. Dieselpunk begins at the advent of gasoline powered engines, in the beginning referred to as 'explosion engines' by the steamcar engine manufacturers. But steam power users lasted a bit longer after this.  Is there a 'Golden Age' of Steampunkery? What marks the end of SPtime? or is it timey-wimey in its orientation?
Please, Gentle Steampunk Citizens (and rebels), a brief help with this small matter,

D. Ravenswood
Logged
J. Wilhelm
╬ Admiral und Luftschiffengel ╬
Moderator
Immortal
*
United States United States


Sentisne fortunatum punkus? Veni. Diem meum comple


WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2016, 07:46:11 am »

Dear Darcy:

I think there is room for some flexibility. To be honest I don't think of the "Steampunk Period" as being tied to locomotives or steam engines exclusively, but rather it is tied to the Industrial Revolution.  

The "Steampunk" name was a tongue in cheek term coined by science fiction writer K W Jeter in April 1987, while writing for magazine Locus where he responded to Faren Miller's review of his new novel, Infernal Devices. The term was loosely inspired by the name "Cyberpunk," and it was a non-serious term he used to denote a science fiction in the style and aesthetic of the 19th. C.  

Now, the exact period... Noting I am NOT referring to other sub-genres such as Dieselpunk, Clockpunk, etc, then I'd have to say that the concensus on the timeframe for British-based Steampunk is the Victorian Era, basically the reign period of Queen Victoria, 1837 –  1901.

However, one must note that there was an entire planet undergoing the Industrial Revolution, and not just Great Britain.  The Victorian Period makes little sense for those countries which had a delayed Industrial Period, such as Russia, Japan and Mexico, especially since those countries had nothing to do with Queen Victoria.

For Russia, I'd say that the Steampunk Period should probably encompass the Russion Revolution, and end with the rise of the Soviet Union, namely 1817. It's difficult to say when it should start, but perhaps our resident Russian Steampunk, Mr. Morozow, can give you a better estimate.

For Mexico, I'd say that Steampunk Period should include the dictatorship of President Porfirio Diaz and end with the Mexican Revolution (Civil War) of 1910. The beginning of the Mexican Steampunk period could be the war for independence, declared in 1810 which was consummated in 1821 when the Mexican nobility, led by General Agustin Iturbide, joined the rebels, leading to the establishment of the First Mexican Empire (with Emperor Agustin I).

In the latter two cases, their respective civil revolutions included the use of trains to move vast numbers of troops, munitions and supplies, so you could say that was their golden era for locomotives, though there are other previous eras to choose from for the Steampunk Period.

For Japan, it is clear that the Meiji Restoration, i.e. the reign of Emperor Meiji, from 1868 to 1912, is the period when the Japanese industrialized and westernized their culture and government, and that is when you see the Industrial Revolution reach Japan, as well as Western aesthetics and food, among many other factors.

For the United States, it just ocurred to me that the start could as early as the War of 1812 with the United Kingdom, or if not, perhaps as late as the Mexican American War of 1848, which resulted in the coast-to-coast expansion of the US, and the end would probably be the Gilded Age which ends around 1900.

~ ~ ~

On the other hand, some people will want to include the Edwardian Period for the UK, which technically speaking is 1901-1910. Actually, now that I think about it, a lot of people sometimes include the Edwardian Period and make the Steampunk period end with WWI, either at the beginning in 1914 or the end in 1918.

How to judge? It's up to you. For me, since the "Steampunk Periods" for non English speaking countries extend as late as 1910, it makes sense to extend the UK/US Steampunk Period at least to the Edwardian era as well. Then all the "Steampunk Eras" more or less end around the same time (1910). That of course not only gives you automobiles (prior to 1900) but it also gives you airplanes (1904).

~ ~ ~

To fire your imagination:

The Attempt Dossier (2010). A fictional assassination attempt against President Porfirio Diaz based on real history events:

El Atentado (Trailer oficial Alta resolución)




The Last Samurai (2003). A fiction based on a historical setting during the reign of young Emperor Meiji

The Last Samurai - Official® Trailer [HD]



The Ukiyoe or Meiji Constitution promulgation of 1889

My two cents.

~ ~ ~

I remain AYS

Adm. J. Wilhelm
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 11:05:03 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged

morozow
Zeppelin Captain
*****
Russian Federation Russian Federation



WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2016, 11:56:55 am »

For Russia the era of steampunk can be extended to the end of the Civil war. Until 1920, the year.
And it is possible not to extend it, and make your, red the revolutionary punk. Full steam, radio, motors and electricity. It's like the author decided for his universe. Smiley

But the beginning, if you focus on steam technology, then this is the work of Cherepanov brothers.
Since 1820, Cherepanov had built about 20 steam engines ranging from 2 to 60 HP In 1825 Yefim Cherepanov was sent to Sweden for "view cars", and 1833, Myron went to England, where he studied the structure of the Railways. On his return, in 1833-1834, they created the first Russian steam locomotive, and then in 1835 — the second, more powerful. They also built a cast-iron railway from one of the factories to the copper mine.

Well, or the construction of the first railway in 1837.
Logged

Sorry for the errors, rudeness and stupidity. It's not me, this online translator. Really convenient?
RJBowman
Zeppelin Captain
*****


« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2016, 04:40:31 am »

There is no timeframe; steampunk is not an era but a genre or style. It is heavily influenced by the 19th century and early 20th century, but there is no restriction; I've seen fictional works about Da Vinci and his inventions that have a strong steampunk vibe, and the 18th century Ichabod Crane's inventions in the film "Sleepy Hollow" certainly deserve the name.

The technology of the genre also need not be limited to steam powered machinery, and Tesla's electrical apparatus and early automobiles frequently find their way into steampunk works.

Don't listen to pedantic know-it-alls who try to claim that it ended with the invention of diesel trains.
Logged
J. Wilhelm
╬ Admiral und Luftschiffengel ╬
Moderator
Immortal
*
United States United States


Sentisne fortunatum punkus? Veni. Diem meum comple


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2016, 11:46:36 am »

Mr. Bowman brings up a good point. I guess I should have been more specific. What does "Steampunk Period" mean to you??  The period when some sci-fi plot takes place? Or the period based on which the sci-fi is inspired from?

The simplest type of Steampunk is an Anachronism, where you take a real time and place (London England, 1837, and you simply create a "kink" in time by using that spot to develop a new alternate time line, e.g. Queen Victoria dies, and someone else takes her place, and then you start changing history.  That is an Anachronism.

But we've touched on this topic several times. And there are Steampunks who refer to Steampunk as being a type of "Uchronia," instead of an Anachronism. The meaning of that word is somewhat obscure, but what it means in terms of literary fantasy, is that the historical period can't be defined. 

In Robert E. Howard's stories about "Conan the Cimerian" novel (a.k.a. the inspiration for Conan the Barbarian movies), the plot takes place on a mythical land of "Hyborea," which is supposed to be some place on Eurasia on the real planet Earth.  Conan's plot however, takes place in a time that is so long ago that it can't be defined, except that it may be the late stone age or early bronze age. The characters are all over the place in terms of technology and weaponry, combining stone age with iron age, and even some medieval bits. And all you know is that "it looks really old,"but you can recognize nothing more.

Not defining a period specifically was a literary tool used by Howard in order to avoid having to use historical references, such as the ancient Minoans, Mesopotamia, Greece, or Egypt. That kind of timeless story is called a Uchronia, and the only drawback is that a writer has to invent a whole global background as opposed to using known civilizations, as a historical frame of reference.

Similarly, there is no reason why a Steampunk story can't be Uchronic, if the literary author wants to create a completely different history that is not related to real history.  Consider a post-apocalyptic scenario, thousands of years into the future, when mankind has lost most of it's technology, and they have to climb their way back up the Industrial Revolution. They could have steam locomotives and look the part of the Wild Wild West, and still be far far away from our time frame - a Steampunk Uchronia.

If you take it one step further, you might even finagle a story where the plot doesn't even take place on Planet Earth. A good example could be the Anime series, "Trigun," which basically is an extraterrestrial Wild West type of setting far into the future, but involving former Terran humans.

The characters could even be  non-human. There is at least one Steampunk novel out there (I forget the name), about extraterrestrial beings who are living through their own Industrial Revolution, complete with coal, steam locomotives and expansionist warfare, all wrapped in the aesthetics of a type of 19th. Century. No humans involved.

I made up a name for this latter type of Sci-Fi: "Virtual Steampunk." Namely virtual because the entire background story, both in time and space, is artificial, all made up by the literary author and has no connection to our real history or terrestrial geography.

So Mr. Bowman is right that there is no Steampunk Period, if what you mean by Steampunk Period  is the timeframe when the plot takes place, as opposed to what the timeframe from which the aesthetics and technology were derived....
Logged
MWBailey
Rogue Ætherlord
*
United States United States


"This is the sort of thing no-one ever believes"

rtafStElmo
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2016, 05:50:59 pm »

Steampunk still, despite the ragings of definition-crazed know-it-alls, is mainly defined both lexicographically and chronologically by the individual.  If anyone tells you the relevant historical period started at this or that time, or ended when thus and so did whatever, nine times out of ten they're just spouting nonsense; everybody does their own thing. By and large, people keep it in the ever-popular Victorian or "Vicwardian" era, but there's no reason it can't be in some other era. I've even heard of one fellow (don't ask me who or where, I can't remember that bit, only that I read it someplace) who approaches it from an ancient Sumerian angle; there're others (lots of them, actually) who do "futuristic" Steampunk in outer space (the Firefly TV series could be considered steampunk if one stretches the point a bit, since lots of it's parts obviously fit the bill, but it clearly is not Vicwardian or even 19th century!).

The actual point of Steampunk, as I see it, is SF approached from the way that the people of past, pre-transistor and just-post-amplified radio (When Steam was still king but Electricity was beginning to gain a major foothold) societies would have solved the problems presented by such challenges as air and space travel, long-distance communication, medicine, Scientific paradigms, etc. for several examples (one need not limit oneself to those examples, or apply all of them, either). BUT, that's just my own preference. Said preference should not be taken as a rule for the entire genre.

A bit more wordy than I intended. Sorry about that.

Do the steampunk that fits your vision.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 06:05:40 pm by MWBailey » Logged

Walk softly and carry a big banjo...

""quid statis aspicientes in infernum"
MWBailey
Rogue Ætherlord
*
United States United States


"This is the sort of thing no-one ever believes"

rtafStElmo
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2016, 06:13:05 pm »

Sorry for the double post...

I would add that Steam is not necessarily a thing of the past; many large ships still use steam, and there several places in the world where steam locomotives are still used. There are also many others where that technology was only abandoned a couple or few years ago (A few coal mines in China spring to mind). There are also a few Caribbean sugar plantations (and other similar concerns elsewhere in the world) that cling to steam, apparently either because it's so expensive to switch over, or perhaps because switching would rob the local population of precious jobs (?), since steam tech tends to require more workers than that of Diesel or electric rail - or truck transport, for that matter.
Logged
Maets
Immortal
**
United States United States

Gravatar

Airship Builder


WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2016, 03:16:59 am »

Quite simply, steampunk is here and now!
Logged

Fairley B. Strange
Zeppelin Overlord
*******
Australia Australia


Relax, I've done much dumber things and survived..


WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2016, 11:00:43 am »

I believe that the Steampunk Period dates from around the year of the birth of Our Queen Empress Victoria unto her death.

However, since her unfortunate decision to make that lamentable pact with the forces of darkness has made the date of her death problematic to predict, my best guess is that the old girl might still last another few decades....
Logged

Choose a code to live by, die by it if you have to.
Prof Marvel
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States


learn from history, or be doomed to repeat it


« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2016, 06:28:20 am »

Sorry for the double post...

I would add that Steam is not necessarily a thing of the past; many large ships still use steam, and there several places in the world where steam locomotives are still used. There are also many others where that technology was only abandoned a couple or few years ago (A few coal mines in China spring to mind). There are also a few Caribbean sugar plantations (and other similar concerns elsewhere in the world) that cling to steam, apparently either because it's so expensive to switch over, or perhaps because switching would rob the local population of precious jobs (?), since steam tech tends to require more workers than that of Diesel or electric rail - or truck transport, for that matter.


Technically Nuclear powered Aircarft Carriers and Submarines are Steam-powered as well. The Reactors merely heat the water into steam to drive the turbines.

yhs
prof marvel
Logged

Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of
Professor Marvel's Traveling Apothecary and Fortune Telling Emporium

Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods, and Picture Postcards
Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions and Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
Colonel Hawthorne
Snr. Officer
****
New Zealand New Zealand



WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2016, 08:45:19 am »

Technically Nuclear powered Aircarft Carriers and Submarines are Steam-powered as well. The Reactors merely heat the water into steam to drive the turbines.

And let us not forget the Saturn V rocket, powered by the reaction of oxygen with hydrogen ... steam, more or less!
Logged

Colonel Sir Julius Hawthorne
H.M. Air Privateers (Retd.)

http://capitalsteampunknz.org

Whatever did we do before retro-futurism?
Inflatable Friend
Zeppelin Admiral
******
Italy Italy



« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2016, 09:36:38 am »

For me I'd suggest a very blurred line somewhere between the late 1700s and the end of the first world war. Unless it's set in the future, on another planet or some other mitigating factor.

Logged
J. Wilhelm
╬ Admiral und Luftschiffengel ╬
Moderator
Immortal
*
United States United States


Sentisne fortunatum punkus? Veni. Diem meum comple


WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2016, 08:03:24 pm »

Technically Nuclear powered Aircarft Carriers and Submarines are Steam-powered as well. The Reactors merely heat the water into steam to drive the turbines.

And let us not forget the Saturn V rocket, powered by the reaction of oxygen with hydrogen ... steam, more or less!

Unfortunately, speaking with some authority one the issue, that's not 100% right, because in a fast combustion reaction like that, not all of the chemical reaction steps needed to for water to form have happened. The combustion is "dirty" and there are many intermediary chemical reactions that leave highly toxic radicals containing hydrogen and oxygen atoms. That  is the reason (besides being burnt to a crisp) that  people are not allowed to be closer to the rocket.
Logged
Colonel Hawthorne
Snr. Officer
****
New Zealand New Zealand



WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2016, 07:29:50 am »

Bah, sir!  I have no time for your radicals and dirty combustibles.  I power my own Saturn Vs by boiling up a good strong cup of tea; have always done so and always shall!
Logged
von Corax
Squire of the Lambda Calculus
Board Moderator
Immortal
**
Canada Canada


Prof. Darwin Prætorius von Corax


« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2016, 07:03:11 pm »

I power my own Saturn Vs by boiling up a good strong cup of tea; have always done so and always shall!
It's amazing what a good Brownian motion generator can accomplish, isn't it?
Logged

By the power of caffeine do I set my mind in motion
By the Beans of Life do my thoughts acquire speed
My hands acquire a shaking
The shaking becomes a warning
By the power of caffeine do I set my mind in motion
The Leverkusen Institute of Paleocybernetics is 5838 km from Reading
chicar
Rogue Ætherlord
*
Canada Canada


Student in Techno-Shamanism and Lyncanthrope

Chicar556
WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2016, 02:28:56 am »

Steampunk being primarely a esthetic, any time frame would do as long this esthetic is respected.


As for past setting eclusively thought, i usually go between the french revolution and ww1 as it is the "official" of the historical 19th century have been taught in school. Hovewer i also heard of a alternative "official" time frame going between 1815 and 1914.
Logged

The word pagan came from paganus , who mean peasant . Its was a way to significate than christianism was the religion of the elite and paganism the one of the savage worker class.

''Trickster shows us how we trick OURSELVES. Her rampant curiosity backfires, but, then, something NEW is discovered (though usually not what She expected)! This is where creativity comes from—experiment, do something different, maybe even something forbidden, and voila! A breakthrough occurs! Ha! Ha! We are released! The world is created anew! Do something backwards, break your own traditions, the barrier breaks; destroy the world as you know it, let the new in.''
Extract of the Dreamflesh article ''Path of The Sacred Clown''
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.102 seconds with 16 queries.