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Author Topic: Help please A3+ Size ship plan design Guidance.  (Read 893 times)
CPT_J_Percell
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« on: February 17, 2016, 07:03:27 am »

Ok, I confess that I have no idea what to do here!   Shocked Grin
I need to draw a plan of my books airship to use on the cover, but apart from random sketches on a drawing pad I have no idea how to create this plan.

Can any of the more experienced prop making senior members give me some guidance?

My operating system is OSX El Capitan.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 07:28:54 pm by CPT_J_Percell » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2016, 07:36:12 pm »

I'm not too up on drawing plans, except with a pencil & T-square, but I find Inkscape very useful as a drawing package and CAD/CAM thing.
There are a lot of free draughting packages that will run on OSX and others, you might find one of those to your taste?

HP
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2016, 08:06:21 pm »

I would put in a recommendation for Sketchup, this is primarily a 3D package but can produce some excellent results and best of all it's free!
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2016, 08:56:54 pm »

I'm not too up on drawing plans, except with a pencil & T-square, but I find Inkscape very useful as a drawing package and CAD/CAM thing.
There are a lot of free draughting packages that will run on OSX and others, you might find one of those to your taste?

HP

I have been using Inkscape for along time on all 3 operating systems (Windows, Linux and OSX)
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Peter Brassbeard
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2016, 04:05:44 pm »

Inkscape is useful, though less than ideal, for drafting.  For engineering design I lean towards http://librecad.org/cms/home.html  Inkscape can work with the files librecad produces if your final output needs to be in another format.
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 09:17:17 pm »

Hasn't been updated in a while Sad

I was hoping on some actual design tips on style and layout
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2016, 09:34:53 am »

Mass it out in cardboard first.

Figuring out the main parts in a loose form using bits of of whatever's to hand and working out the spacial relationships that way can be much more satisfying than diving straight into cad/cam which will inevitability effect the sort of designs you come up with.

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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2016, 06:31:34 pm »

"Steampunk airship" can cover a lot of territory.  Realistic or fantastical?  How big?  What era style?
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2016, 06:58:54 pm »

Had a little goog, under 'airship historic plans' and found amongst others, this page:-

http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/

which has things like this:-

http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/r36/images/r36plan.jpg

Is that the sort of thing?

HP
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2016, 07:38:36 pm »

I know I've seen some good interior illustrations of the Hindenburg.  If you're lucky, you may find a library with a copy of 'Hindenburg - An Illustrated History', but you can get a very inexpensive copy on Amazon

and have a look at the images on this blog.
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2016, 08:44:49 pm »

"Steampunk airship" can cover a lot of territory.  Realistic or fantastical?  How big?  What era style?


Semi real, about the size of HMS Warrior but made out of wood!
Almost the deck plan.

Had a little goog, under 'airship historic plans' and found amongst others, this page:-

http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/

which has things like this:-

http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/r36/images/r36plan.jpg

Is that the sort of thing?

HP


Thanks man,

I know I've seen some good interior illustrations of the Hindenburg.  If you're lucky, you may find a library with a copy of 'Hindenburg - An Illustrated History', but you can get a very inexpensive copy on Amazon

and have a look at the images on this blog.


Thanks, I had forgotten about that film
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2016, 11:46:48 pm »

The ship bit the size of HMS Warrior, or the whole thing including envelope the size of said ship?

To my previous post I'd also add;

Build around key features, if you've a 3 story glass-bottomed ballroom (for dancing in the clouds) running half the length of the ship and ending in a vast viewing panorama and stage at the prow then it's really going to define the ship, certainly the richer parts of it.

If it's more offensive in nature then building around your big guns and their respective magazines will be important, taking care of the feeding of your guns is as important as ensureing they don't turn half your crew into paste or shatter the all important spars holding your boilers in place. Assuming it'll fight other airships and heavier-than-air craft how does it defend/attack all round. Does it carry it's own fighters/reconnaissance craft? The Akron and Macon are prime examples but WW1 saw the first planes strapped to airships.

How're you planning to use the envelope, will the main body of the ship be built into the envelope or dangling below it like a balloon? Again, very different layouts come to mind with each, and each has it's owns pros and cons (for instance imagine dancing in that 3 story ballroom with the clouds below you and the moodily lit shapes of the individual gas bags visible through the ceiling above).

Engines, how's the ship being powered, what fuel does it use, how and where is that stored and does it have any side effects that need to be negated?

People. People need a lot of stuff - Luggage, light, heat, berths (ratings, officers, passengers of several classes) kitchens, food storage, toilets, entertainment, weapons and accessories. How much of what do you need and how does it all relate to the other stuff? You certainly don't want some of that stuff crowding others!

Some airships had some pretty innovative solutions, cooking by using the engines exhaust heat for example.

Make it Lived In. Yup, StarWars, Aliens and Dark Star led the way, it's our duty to follow Cheesy Things get scuffed up, modified, personalised, innovated in the field, fixed and jury-rigged. The Millennium Falcon, the Nostromo, Dark Star, Firefly's Serenity, the moonbase in Moon, gravity and the Rocinante in the Expanse series, the tanks in Fury - They're all as much characters, or should be seen as characters, as the people who work and act within them. Selling your ship as a working vessel means getting it to reflect the loves, lives and experiences of the characters on board.

Still recommend working in card/clay/something loose and fast before touching plans. You're solving a 3d spacial problem and it's best looked at in 3d space. Plans are just cuts through that 3d solution, if you jump straight to them you risk getting stuck with planiform solutions to 3d problems Cheesy

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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2016, 09:17:55 am »

Thanks for those pointers.

The ship is basically an old wooden warship with a ballon strapped to it. to negate the weight (and save fuel) it has 7 spears filled with an obscurium/Æther mix that when activated producing a field that reduces the weight of anything inside relative to the outside.

powered buy 4 loco pattern steam engines the turn a dynamo making power.

only the top 2 decks (out of 3) have cannons. I'm basing a lot of the design on the actual HMS warrior so that i have some form of reference.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajb2k3/albums/72157630695859898
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 09:57:04 pm »

Hmmm...

The biggest design issue that reads it's head from reading that is the very different nature of the two intended mediums.

Flying galleys giving each other shocking broadsides is a cool notion, but it's easy to overlook the main technical difference between naval and aerial battles - altitude.

Having your gun decks on the top decks of a ship and the engines below is good sense, most of the shots you're likely to take in the line of duty are going to be above the waterline, that bulbus bit underneath is partly protected by water and if you're in the situation where people can shoot straight into your keel then you're likely beyond caring likely. All the shooting you're going to be doing will be aimed at people sharing the same general plane as you, give or take a bit of swell, so having your guns point straight out the sides is perfect.

A flying ship would likely have the opposite concerns, taking a shot in the keel is highly likely, be it from ground based stuff shooting up or other airships, but what with big gas balloons taking a hit on the centre of the top deck is less likely, or at least going to be scary enough already. Having your guns and crew on the bottom two decks gives them a better field of fire, if other airships do dastardly things like not have the decency to maintain the same altitude as you.

Putting the engines in the centre of the top deck means getting hit below the old waterline might loose you a few crew members, but it's a whole lot less likely to pop a boiler and turn your ship into a cloud of burning rain.

Not reason not to use an old warship, it's a fun idea, but it might need a lot of fun refitting to make it suitable for the task! (Plus you get to confuse any crew who worked on that class of ship when it was waterbased).

Lastly, more questions: ballon contents? Helium, hydrogen, hot air?
How do the smokestacks interact with the envelope?

Also, how does the low-weight field affect life on board the ship when it's switched on, are there more injuries and accidents as a result of it? How does it affect combat and the path of projectiles as they enter or exit the field and suddenly gain or lose weight?
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2016, 10:24:05 pm »

Hmmm...

The biggest design issue that reads it's head from reading that is the very different nature of the two intended mediums.

Flying galleys giving each other shocking broadsides is a cool notion, but it's easy to overlook the main technical difference between naval and aerial battles - altitude.

Having your gun decks on the top decks of a ship and the engines below is good sense, most of the shots you're likely to take in the line of duty are going to be above the waterline, that bulbus bit underneath is partly protected by water and if you're in the situation where people can shoot straight into your keel then you're likely beyond caring likely. All the shooting you're going to be doing will be aimed at people sharing the same general plane as you, give or take a bit of swell, so having your guns point straight out the sides is perfect.

A flying ship would likely have the opposite concerns, taking a shot in the keel is highly likely, be it from ground based stuff shooting up or other airships, but what with big gas balloons taking a hit on the centre of the top deck is less likely, or at least going to be scary enough already. Having your guns and crew on the bottom two decks gives them a better field of fire, if other airships do dastardly things like not have the decency to maintain the same altitude as you.
Can't place cannons lower as there are devices mounted low on the hull and well everyother space is hold space.
Putting the engines in the centre of the top deck means getting hit below the old waterline might loose you a few crew members, but it's a whole lot less likely to pop a boiler and turn your ship into a cloud of burning rain.

Not reason not to use an old warship, it's a fun idea, but it might need a lot of fun refitting to make it suitable for the task! (Plus you get to confuse any crew who worked on that class of ship when it was waterbased).
The crew have never been in an airship before so had to learn for themselves how it works.
Lastly, more questions: ballon contents? Helium, hydrogen, hot air?
How do the smokestacks interact with the envelope?
Valid question, unsure, but did discover a massive fire risk with the smoke stack commin right up through the middle of the ballon!
Also, how does the low-weight field affect life on board the ship when it's switched on, are there more injuries and accidents as a result of it? How does it affect combat and the path of projectiles as they enter or exit the field and suddenly gain or lose weight?

Interesting because those inside don't loose weigh but its relative to the outside. i.e without the field, a ton weighs a ton but with the field its weights lest then a ton.
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2016, 07:32:44 am »

A very rough sketch.



 (rear propellers are too high!)
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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2016, 08:54:19 am »

Actually, if you're basically hanging a sailing ship under a gasbag, you won't want the propellors lower as they will just cause the ship/gondola to swing forward under the balloon and waste energy.

(Apologies for applying Newtonian physics to flying brigs)
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2016, 06:39:05 pm »

Also, how does the low-weight field affect life on board the ship when it's switched on, are there more injuries and accidents as a result of it? How does it affect combat and the path of projectiles as they enter or exit the field and suddenly gain or lose weight?

Interesting because those inside don't loose weigh but its relative to the outside. i.e without the field, a ton weighs a ton but with the field its weights lest then a ton.
So objects inside the ship still feel the normal force of gravity, but there's a counterforce on the hull of the ship?  Sounds like a repulsorlift type device.
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 06:59:18 pm »

Also, how does the low-weight field affect life on board the ship when it's switched on, are there more injuries and accidents as a result of it? How does it affect combat and the path of projectiles as they enter or exit the field and suddenly gain or lose weight?

Interesting because those inside don't loose weigh but its relative to the outside. i.e without the field, a ton weighs a ton but with the field its weights lest then a ton.
So objects inside the ship still feel the normal force of gravity, but there's a counterforce on the hull of the ship?  Sounds like a repulsorlift type device.

Kind off may even a bit of antigravity, I decided to leave it undiscussed to leave questions for others to get their own ideas on, I'm just classing it as the "Handwaveum" effect.

Quote
(Apologies for applying Newtonian physics to flying brigs)
To be honest I just ignore the laws of physics there because the motors powering the props could only be mounted in the lower hull (oh and they also act as water props  Tongue
The biggest thing annoying me at present is the steering sails (when used in flight mode)
When open I can draw the mechanics to make them work and draw into the side of the ship when in water. My biggest headache is that I can get a decent mechanical design into my head to make them open and close even with a set of gears connecting them.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 07:02:19 pm by CPT_J_Percell » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2016, 08:21:04 pm »

Hmm... I want to push more on the fields functionality, probably due to a strange handwavium allergy (I just want things to make sense!). That and depending on how it works I can see a lot of superweapon use for it.

But, on topic!

I meant to get my crayons out tonight, but alas my ongoing housing crisis has meant the crayons remained boxed.

What I wanted to do, and will now have to do with words instead, is push other ideas for a cover.

The question has to be, why a plan?

Generally plans are very dry, flicking through my bookshelves brought up only two books that use plans as a major element of the cover; a book on stable design and another on planning gardens. I suppose we could count Ching's architectural graphics has having a plan on it, but that's only a small part of the cover. Plans are a dry and uninspiring graphic, more likely to summon up images of technical history, estate agents or or other niche topics. Even all swooshed up as part of an elaborate larger image it's going to be a hard sell for adventure.

Going with something that helps people visualise the environment or characters (airship soaring above clouds, hero-sailor looking moodily into the middle distance with white cliffs of Dover in the background, that sort of thing)bis more traditional. Choosing 4-5 bits of the book that sum up the experience, locations or characters then paying an artist to work the one they like the most into a cover with you could work well.

If you don't fancy that way you could go the more enigmatic route of a stylised logo or graphic on a plain background (think the more recent lord of the rings or adult harry potter or pratchett covers).

Dunno, maybe I'm overthinking it,

Got a mock-up or description of how you want the cover to look?
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2016, 09:45:43 pm »

Funny you say that as I want a more adault feel to the covers.
These are done by the other me!




My problem is that I have no artistic talent but I can draw plans.
As to the field....
It was an accidental discovery while studying the effects of runes and crystals. the same technology that resulted in the "Repulsorlift" effect also had another side affect that allows it to transport its contents across dimensions (anything attached to the source) however it was also discovered the the iled can also be shaped and turned into Æther weapons!
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« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2016, 11:15:03 pm »

I feel I must raise an outraged eyebrow at the notion of 'Artistic Talent'

Talent is a lie, an outrageous falsehood that must be torn down and cast into the gutter where it belongs at every opportunity.

People use the Talent Lie as an excuse for not committing to something, or, worse, aggrandizing themselves as something rare and special.

Artistry is, as with so much of the things so many people excuse themselves from be it maths, writing, sports, knitting, music or other, a skill. Skills that are learned, developed and improved through time, training and practice.

If someone says they're a natural talent, then they're probably selling you some kind of snakeoil, or they're some insufferable tuftsucker. If you're excusing yourself for not having a talent then stop deluding yourself, realise it's down to time, practice and skills and treat it as such.

Ahem, sorry. Hot button topic there.

Right, plans, yes. All fine and dandy for showing off the layout of a kitchen, garden or suburban semi. Handy as anything when visiting a stately home. Bloody awful at conveying anything emotional, much like an IKEA instruction manual.

You're better off with something simple and clean, the adult covers there work though personally I'd probably have gone with a slightly less fussy background and fiddled with the levels of the objects till I had a lovely 2-or-3 tone effect, but that's personal taste. They work as is!

Honestly, I'll try and find my crayons box at the weekend. Cheer myself up a bit.
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2016, 07:14:27 am »

On the subject of Newtonian law causing the gondola to swing when excellerating.
If the rear lines were loosed (raising the back of the ballon) and the front drawn in (lowing the front closer to the deck) would this work better?
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