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Author Topic: Edged Weapons and Conventions  (Read 1637 times)
Bines
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« on: January 18, 2016, 03:51:34 am »

What has been your experience with bringing edged weapons to conventions and other public gatherings?

Some have strict no edged weapon policies. Some require peace bonding of various styles; tied with rope or zip tied. Even then, there's a staff discretion clause. 
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RJBowman
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2016, 05:38:13 am »

Most these days shows don't allow real metal blades for liability reasons. Best bet is to use padded LARP swords.
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Steam Titan
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fulgur adducere


« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 05:19:07 pm »

Most these days shows don't allow real metal blades for liability reasons. Best bet is to use padded LARP swords.

or a wood/plastic replica.
Some places let you bring them in but they are zip tied to keep them peace bound. I would contact people at the convention before to find out or just use replicas.
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frances
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 09:57:47 pm »

In England the Police would arrest you before you got there.  Carrying an offensive weapon is illegal here.
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frances
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 10:22:10 pm »

https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

English law on carrying knives in general.  Going to a convention does not seems to be a valid reason.
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Bines
Gunner
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United States United States



« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2016, 02:40:33 am »

Bois d'arc and carbon fiber it is! Totally safe.  Wink

Glass? Hey, it's not metal.

Hmmm. A leather bladed knife could be tooled up to look cool.
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Keith_Beef
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France France


« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2016, 10:02:21 am »

https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

English law on carrying knives in general.  Going to a convention does not seems to be a valid reason.


That page is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

The situation is quite complicated, and that page tries so hard to put it in simple terms, that all it does is muddy the waters even more.

This page from the Crown Prosecution Service is better, but it takes some time to read through and then some effort to try to understand.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offensive_weapons_knives_bladed_and_pointed_articles/

The first thing to consider is that even the idea of a "public place" can be hard to pin down at times. Let's just say that a public place is one that the public has access to even if that place is private property and members of the public have to pay an entrance fee. So a football stadium or a convention centre is a public place.

The second is that the general principle of the law is that
  • you cannot legally carry a bladed or sharply pointed object in a public place unless you have good reason to do so*,
  • certain objects are specifically declared as being illegal to manufacture, import, carry, own, offer for sale or trade, and so on.

*For the purposes of the act, a folding knife with a cutting edge no longer than 76mm (3 inches) is exempted from this.

I've been a member of several re-enactment groups in the UK, and though it was quite a long time ago, the law does not seem to have changed a great deal on that side of things. Taking part in a re-enactment event is seen as being a good reason for being in possession of a bladed or sharply pointed object in a public place.

Now you might think that if your "replica" sword or knife is not sharpened, and th etip is rouded off to the same curve as a 2p piece (which was the general guideline for safety in my day for mediæval fencing), then you'd be OK, since the object is not sharp therefore is not a blade, because a blade is a sharp thing for cutting stuff.

But no, look at this extract from the page at the CPS.
Quote
For the purposes of sections 139 and 139A of the Act:
  • a butterknife, with no cutting edge and no point is a bladed article; (Booker v DPP 169).P.368, DC);
  • a screwdriver is not a bladed article; R v Davis [1998] Crim L.R. 564 CA);


Just by rounding off the edge and point and making it decidedly unslicey and unstabby does not remove an object from the class of "bladed or sharply pointed objects".

However, a screwdriver is certainly quite stabby and with quite sharp 90° corners and edges is quite capable of slicing through your skin when it skips out of the slot on a screw head (you can guess how I know this).

I hope I've made things a little bit clearer.

Convention centre == public place.
Sword, even if blunted, == bladed object.

Bladed object in a public place == offence unless you have a good reason.

Now you need to find out if attending this convention is a good enough reason in the eyes of the Police and of the CPS, and to determine whether you are willing to take the risk of either being turned away, or being ejected at some point, from the convention or of being arrested and having to go through the thoroughly time-consuming and inconvenient process of choosing between a caution and trial, then the trial itself.
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Keith
Steam Titan
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fulgur adducere


« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2016, 08:18:18 pm »

I think the overall solution is just don't take a real edged weapon but some form of replica
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Atterton
Time Traveler
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Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2016, 11:04:13 pm »

Go the Bishop Odo route instead and get a large club.
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Resurrectionist and freelance surgeon.
Bines
Gunner
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United States United States



« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 11:22:21 pm »

Go the Bishop Odo route instead and get a large club.

Some cons, and governments, have rules against them, too.

But I hear what you're saying.  Wink
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Clym Angus
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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2016, 01:07:21 am »

Ok so the problem here is that we have a fiction that is a bit shooty and a touch stabby at times yes? Yet our sub culture exists within a society that (generally) gets a little uncomfortable if people start waving said objects around the place.

I like my art but I will not go to prison for it. Or suffer the life long guilt of a stupid accident.

In short boys and girls I'll keep my sharp metal at home and replicate. Exceptionally well might I add.
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Thomas MSwift
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@AdmiralSwift
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 05:10:02 am »

 I have thought that a 'sword' made starting with (say) a wooden scabbard, leather-covered and the hilt rigidly affixed to it, could be worn as a costume prop without violation...it cannot be drawn nor brandished.
  One might do similarly with a holster and pistol....all there is of the pistol is what can be seen above the holster and it is fitted with a threaded stud at its 'muzzle end' to be bolted into the holster. Again, decor for the belt.
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Mme. Ratchet
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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2016, 05:44:45 am »

I know things are a lot different here in the states, but have never really looked to see how things would go over at a con. I know I could openly carry pretty much anything I want as long as Im not stupid with it. But that doesnt necessarily mean Id be able to take it in to a con with me.
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MWBailey
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"This is the sort of thing no-one ever believes"

rtafStElmo
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2016, 05:55:31 am »

When performing or conventionalizing, I habitually wear my fife/flute case. The one I use nowadays is a multi-slot tooled leather case-cum-scabbard thing that I made for the purpose; it's more or less inspired by certain period pieces I've seen, though I must admit I've only seen one- or two- slot versions in daguerrotype. I guess you could call it a latter-day "extrapolation" of the idea.



I tend to call it my "corps des rechanges," though of course that might not really be appropriate (the term actually refers to the set of extra flute sections sometimes included with concert flutes of the 1700s to late 1800s, for the purpose of changing key ranges). Two of the slots in my case are for the storage of the big Irish flute, which I habitually disassemble for safe carry; the other two carry (1) my folk fife, which is in the same key(s) as the big flute (mainly D, A, and G, and also crossfingering in C), and (2) a transverse "fife" descant recorder, mainly for playing in non-crossfingered C and/or adjacent keys when required.



I'm told it kind of looks like a cross between a holster for a long barrelled pistol (like a Mauser, perhaps) and one of those oblong cases for a collapsible pool cue (HA!). It looks interesting worn on the right hip. I gave it a long-travel belt loop, so it would ride up and down when moving from sitting to standing position or vice versa; it makes it easy to fit it into the drivers seat or snug-fitting chairs with me safely (i.e., without doing damage to the flutes inside).



I've been stopped and questioned about the case by both interested onlookers, and by persnickety police/security people (I guess it looks weapon-ish enough to inspire suspicion). They're always bemused by the "open carriage" of a musical instrument. I've considered several times taking the faux ivory grip off of a cap pistol and wedging it under the flap...

I've also thought about making a scabbard for an umbrella, to which I would add a saber hilt for the handle, similar to the katana umbrellas I've seen in various places. Or maybe a flute scabbard just for the big flute, made like a hanger in a scabbard...


More apropos to the thread topic, this is my possibles bag with the knife i habitually carry in my Steampunk/Runaway Scrape costume. it's a fairly nondescript "file" knife (yes, I know such are apocryphal, but it's a great tool and I love the thing) It's crap as a combat knife (no handguard and a relatively short grip), but its great for just about everything else - plus its unobtrusive enough for people to not get too gripey about.



I commonly use a wrought-iron "spork" (one of those blacksmith curios they put out for sale at demonstrations) along with the knife when I eat at the food concession areas at reenactments (yes, I do keep a very sharp edge on it), usually carving up my turkey leg or sausage in a bun (the things are always drippy with grease and the mustard or whatever that I put on them). The knife-and-spork helps to avoid getting embarrassing stains on my clothes - plus it looks photo-op-level "period" for me to sit there and do so. It doesn't bother me to have people filming and photographing me carving up and eating my lunch, as long as they don't turn into Steven Spielburgh and start telling me how to do it for their shot...

« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 06:42:02 am by MWBailey » Logged

Walk softly and carry a big banjo...

""quid statis aspicientes in infernum"
river rat
Gunner
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United States United States

Gambler. Grave Robber. All around fun guy.


« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2016, 04:00:31 pm »

Most conventions here in the states allow styrofoam, PVA or other soft materials. Some conventions wont even allow wood.
Here's the weapons policy from the St Louis MO. Renaissance Fair.

"Weapons Policy

The Festival bans guns on our premises. Longbows are allowed as long as they are not strung, arrows, with tips are not allowed unless you are competing in the longbow competition that day.

Swords, Knives, Dirks, and Daggers must be completely sheathed and peace-tied. Axes, Claymores, Maces, Antique Firearms, Pikes and Halberds are NOT allowed on the Festival site. No drawing of any weapon at any time. Must be 18 years or older to carry a weapon."

Years ago I watched an improved sword fight between to guys in regalia. One sword slid down the blade of the other. Striking his opponent in the hand. Cut deep. Ended up getting stitches.
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I'm not all bad. I rob graves. I don't add to their numbers.
morozow
Zeppelin Captain
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Russian Federation Russian Federation



WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2016, 08:22:03 pm »

I'm sorry. Reconstructable historical battles.  Historical fencing?

How are they without weapons? Without their blunt blades.
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Sorry for the errors, rudeness and stupidity. It's not me, this online translator. Really convenient?
Inflatable Friend
Zeppelin Admiral
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Italy Italy



« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2016, 02:37:27 pm »

I'm sorry. Reconstructable historical battles.  Historical fencing?

How are they without weapons? Without their blunt blades.

They're likely to be events or specticals at a venue. They'll be done by a group who have a collective responsibility and (more importantly for organisers) insurance. They'll be roped off or staged for safety with participants who (theoretically) know what they're doing and have likely had some modicum of training with their blunted weapons.

Very different from a random collection of general convention goers.
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morozow
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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2016, 03:18:56 pm »

About the organization of festivals is clear. Who wants to be responsible for violent fools.

But I understand your laws, even the carriage of such items is prohibited.

We have easier. Blunt the sword has no blade. So he has no striking blade. And therefore is not considered a cold arms.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 03:21:00 pm by morozow » Logged
Clym Angus
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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2016, 06:41:11 pm »

And remember if your having a nerf duel, clear the area behind both shooters, watch for cross wind, everyone wears goggles (yes even the umpire) and keep your gob shut during the shoot out!
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MWBailey
Rogue Ætherlord
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United States United States


"This is the sort of thing no-one ever believes"

rtafStElmo
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2016, 07:31:13 pm »

GULP!
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morozow
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Russian Federation Russian Federation



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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2016, 10:35:30 pm »

Valiant British knights crush on the festival "Battle of Nations".



Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sorry for offtopic
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river rat
Gunner
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United States United States

Gambler. Grave Robber. All around fun guy.


« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2016, 12:09:33 am »

I'm sorry. Reconstructable historical battles.  Historical fencing?

How are they without weapons? Without their blunt blades.

They're likely to be events or specticals at a venue. They'll be done by a group who have a collective responsibility and (more importantly for organisers) insurance. They'll be roped off or staged for safety with participants who (theoretically) know what they're doing and have likely had some modicum of training with their blunted weapons.

Very different from a random collection of general convention goers.

This mock sword fight wasn't roped off or separated from the crowds in any way. I was only about 3 feet '1 meeter' away. Nothing but the clothing I had on between me and their performance. So technically, within swords reach. This wasn't the only mock sword fight done in the middle of a crowd. I saw a few that day. Back around 20 years or more this was the norm. The only people walking around the fest in regalia were the performers. The idea was to keep a storyline going on all day.
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Mme. Ratchet
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2016, 02:43:29 am »

I had had an idea that if a convention had a "no real weapons" rule (like our local con, SoDak Con), that what if you were able to permanently attach the weapon to the inside of a scabbard or holster. For instance, if I took my sword and pop-riveted it to the inside of the scabbard, would it be okay, then? For all intents and purposes, it's been neutered. It can't be removed from the sheath, it can't be waved around. It's like a permanent peace tie. I've been hesitant to ask the con organizers about it, but figured it may be worth saying something and see what you all thought.

Our local con's rule is that if it's made of actual metal, it's no bueno. Airsoft weaponry is also banned.
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Clym Angus
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2016, 02:37:55 pm »

With a good tempered steel even without the edge at best you have a crowbar fight.
Look guys (and ladies) if the rollers don't like what your doing they will get you.
I tend to err on the side of not giving the officious an easy win. But it's up to you.
Whatever you do, know the law and accept responsibility if it all goes left very very quickly.

This is fun, it really shouldn't end in a cell and a sizeable dink on the rap sheet.
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Mme. Ratchet
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United States United States


« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2016, 08:19:39 pm »

If the con said no, I wouldn't particularly mind, but they seem to be totally okay with wood and other stuff (like if I had a wooden sword tucked in my belt, they wouldn't care, but if it were metal, regardless of edge, they would). My idea/question was mostly if you took the metal and put it in a sheath made of something else and permanenly fixed it in there, do you think it'd work? It'd be like a peace tie, but permanent/semi-permanent. Just figured I'd offer a possible solution to benefit the discussion (I happen to have a couple of cheapo blades about that I wouldn't mind pop-riveting in to a sheath as a prop).
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