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Author Topic: Terra Nullius - No Mans Land. - Territory Without Sovereignty  (Read 2404 times)
J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2015, 03:31:23 am »

Maybe we could find a way to bind seawater into a solid rock? Like, jelly-concrete. It wouldn't be the strongest, but if we could produce a large amount of rubble above a seamount it would technically be an island...

Yes, I'm aware that the law of the sea doesn't recognise artificial islands.


That is the thing about the maritime law.  It forbids man-made island territory, but what happens when mother nature makes new land?

Maybe we could find a way to bind seawater into a solid rock? Like, jelly-concrete. It wouldn't be the strongest, but if we could produce a large amount of rubble above a seamount it would technically be an island...

Yes, I'm aware that the law of the sea doesn't recognise artificial islands.


Doesn't it?  I thought new-built artificial islands were the foundation of China's present claim to the oceanic territory between Taiwan, the Philippines, and Viet Nam.  (Mind you, I think no one ought to build islands as the Chinese have, by smothering living underwater coral reefs under sand and concrete.)


I think that the Philippines is now making the case to the Permanent Court of Arbitration in the Hague and the UN on precisely that matter. China's claims, the Philippines argue, are plain illegal under international law: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34671504

« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 03:44:03 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2015, 04:18:16 pm »

Also, what happens when mother nature is assisted by humans in bringing new land into existence, say by planting on sandbars to fix the sand into position and raise them by the addition of sediment?
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2015, 09:51:47 am »

Hans Island off the coast of Greenland is disputed territory, with both Canada and Denmark laying claim. It might make a good candidate.
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2015, 12:31:13 am »


A controversial subject, this ownership of land; raging here in Hawaii because the homeless are largely Micronesians whose own islands were just taken for the nuclear testing in the '60's.  They were kicked off their islands, which are now radioactive, and when they come here, they are driven away from the beaches and parks where they sit under the trees with their children while those who can speak the language seek jobs or go to school.  There is the concept of No Man's Land, and then Public Land, but distinctions are made about who is a member of the public and whether or not a person has a right to be on it.  Robinson Crusoe would have come up against the local Sit-Lie Ban which allows police to arrest anyone who sits or lies down on the ground here. Which is sad for those of us who like to sit under a tree sometimes.  They did build some extra land a while ago by dropping a lot of old cars into the ocean, where the corals cemented them together to form a solid place.

If there is a map with a place on it where anyone may go, I would certainly like to see it.
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2015, 04:22:29 am »


A controversial subject, this ownership of land; raging here in Hawaii because the homeless are largely Micronesians whose own islands were just taken for the nuclear testing in the '60's.  They were kicked off their islands, which are now radioactive, and when they come here, they are driven away from the beaches and parks where they sit under the trees with their children while those who can speak the language seek jobs or go to school.  There is the concept of No Man's Land, and then Public Land, but distinctions are made about who is a member of the public and whether or not a person has a right to be on it.  Robinson Crusoe would have come up against the local Sit-Lie Ban which allows police to arrest anyone who sits or lies down on the ground here. Which is sad for those of us who like to sit under a tree sometimes.  They did build some extra land a while ago by dropping a lot of old cars into the ocean, where the corals cemented them together to form a solid place.

If there is a map with a place on it where anyone may go, I would certainly like to see it.

Sit-in ban on public land? Is that even constitutional? I imagine we're talking about State (Hawaii)  land and not Federal land,  then?
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2015, 06:04:31 am »

The subject is indeed fascinating, but the map is... perhaps not the best map for the purpose.  There are some ugly labels and really awful assumptions involved in parts - I won't discuss which, as that really would make it political.

Has anybody got another map?  This should be explored further.



Cheers!

Chas.




It might be that somebody has yet to create one; perhaps someone who has been participating in this thread for a while could do so?
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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2015, 01:54:39 am »


A controversial subject, this ownership of land; raging here in Hawaii because the homeless are largely Micronesians whose own islands were just taken for the nuclear testing in the '60's.  They were kicked off their islands, which are now radioactive, and when they come here, they are driven away from the beaches and parks where they sit under the trees with their children while those who can speak the language seek jobs or go to school.  There is the concept of No Man's Land, and then Public Land, but distinctions are made about who is a member of the public and whether or not a person has a right to be on it.  Robinson Crusoe would have come up against the local Sit-Lie Ban which allows police to arrest anyone who sits or lies down on the ground here. Which is sad for those of us who like to sit under a tree sometimes.  They did build some extra land a while ago by dropping a lot of old cars into the ocean, where the corals cemented them together to form a solid place.

If there is a map with a place on it where anyone may go, I would certainly like to see it.

Sit-in ban on public land? Is that even constitutional? I imagine we're talking about State (Hawaii)  land and not Federal land,  then?

 I don't know that there is anything in the US Constitution about having a right to sit on public land.

This sounds like one of those ordinances whose only real purpose is to make life miserable enough for the destitute that they will magically disappear and trouble real citizens no more, rather like those "sidewalk cleaning" machines that spray water out of buildings at irregular intervals.
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2015, 04:51:33 am »


A controversial subject, this ownership of land; raging here in Hawaii because the homeless are largely Micronesians whose own islands were just taken for the nuclear testing in the '60's.  They were kicked off their islands, which are now radioactive, and when they come here, they are driven away from the beaches and parks where they sit under the trees with their children while those who can speak the language seek jobs or go to school.  There is the concept of No Man's Land, and then Public Land, but distinctions are made about who is a member of the public and whether or not a person has a right to be on it.  Robinson Crusoe would have come up against the local Sit-Lie Ban which allows police to arrest anyone who sits or lies down on the ground here. Which is sad for those of us who like to sit under a tree sometimes.  They did build some extra land a while ago by dropping a lot of old cars into the ocean, where the corals cemented them together to form a solid place.

If there is a map with a place on it where anyone may go, I would certainly like to see it.

Sit-in ban on public land? Is that even constitutional? I imagine we're talking about State (Hawaii)  land and not Federal land,  then?

 I don't know that there is anything in the US Constitution about having a right to sit on public land.

This sounds like one of those ordinances whose only real purpose is to make life miserable enough for the destitute that they will magically disappear and trouble real citizens no more, rather like those "sidewalk cleaning" machines that spray water out of buildings at irregular intervals.

You may be right on that one.  There is no coctitutional guarantee that protects a right to sit or lie in public land.  But the opposite is equally illogical.  If you have no right to sit or lie in public land, and there is no private property that will take you in (as private property is by definition private, and thus you can be denied access of any kind), then, what is someone without any private property supposed to do? Float in mid air? Disappear?

While there may be no explicit guarantee, that guarantee may be implied by other constitutional rights.  A good example is the current fight for same-sex marriage between the Federal Govt. and the Sates' Govts.  There is no constitutional guarantee explicitly giving you the right to marry the same sex, but the right to do so is implied indirectly by the rest of the law. When the constitution was drafted, these issues were simply not treated.

Hence, these transients' rights may in fact be contested in Federal and State Courts, based on other human rights principles guaranteed by the Constitution.
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2015, 05:53:15 pm »

The subject is indeed fascinating, but the map is... perhaps not the best map for the purpose.  There are some ugly labels and really awful assumptions involved in parts - I won't discuss which, as that really would make it political.

Has anybody got another map?  This should be explored further.



Cheers!

Chas.




It might be that somebody has yet to create one; perhaps someone who has been participating in this thread for a while could do so?

It's one of those peculiar things. Everytime some eager young cartographer starts compiling the List, about halfway through they suddenly pack their bags and are never seen again.....       Wink
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