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Author Topic: Terra Nullius - No Mans Land. - Territory Without Sovereignty  (Read 2334 times)
Hurricane Annie
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« on: October 26, 2015, 01:15:38 am »


Another poster on another thread got  me thinking.  There are areas big and small,  unclaimed by any nation, on the  maps. They hold a fascination in the imagination.

 How many are there  and who can claim them?  Are there entire countries that   could have  ambiguous status [ my own country being one]?

 Would you want to claim  a no mans land ? Be part of a new nation striking out against the  long standing international political hegemony ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius

http://reconciliationproject.ca/2012/07/16/the-doctrine-of-discovery-is-less-of-a-problem-than-terra-nullius/

http://stage6.pbworks.com/f/The+Doctrine+of+terra+nullius.pdf

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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2015, 01:24:42 am »



There is a long list of geopolitical anomalies

http://www.geocurrents.info/geopolitics/key-to-map-of-geopolitical-anomalies

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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 02:40:35 am »


Another poster on another thread got  me thinking.  There are areas big and small,  unclaimed by any nation, on the  maps. They hold a fascination in the imagination.

 How many are there  and who can claim them?  Are there entire countries that   could have  ambiguous status [ my own country being one]?

 Would you want to claim  a no mans land ? Be part of a new nation striking out against the  long standing international political hegemony ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius

http://reconciliationproject.ca/2012/07/16/the-doctrine-of-discovery-is-less-of-a-problem-than-terra-nullius/

http://stage6.pbworks.com/f/The+Doctrine+of+terra+nullius.pdf




I don't know about unclaimed land. But I do know of unincorporated American Territory in the form of several atolls, about 50 miles west of Midway Island  Grin  They are administered from Honolulu, but are not part of the State of Hawai'i. They are American Territory not subject to most local, and state laws outside of the Federal Pervue.
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 02:44:33 am »



I'm amused by the "Non-Sovereign Sovereign States"  Huh  Cheesy I'm not sure the writer who drew that map understands what the United States is...  Grin

I'm not sure about "Narco Territories" of Mexico.  Maybe someone wants to see it that way for dramatic effect. The so called Narco Cartels are just glorified drug dealing gangs, and they are not claiming independence from Mexico.  The now defunct pro-Native separatist movement of "Subcomandante Marcos" in Chiapas, decades ago, held more of a legitimate claim, in my opinion...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 02:53:07 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 02:52:10 am »



I'm not sure about "Narco Territories" of Mexico.  Maybe someone wants to see it that way for dramatic effect. The so called Narco Cartels are just glorified drug dealing gangs, and they are not claiming independence from Mexico.  The now defunct pro-Native separatist movement of "Subcomandante Marcos" in Chiapas, decades ago, held more of a legitimate claim, in my opinion...


I don't think the article is claiming that the Narco gangs are claiming independence, but rather that the area is not under the control of the legitimate government.
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 02:56:28 am »



I'm not sure about "Narco Territories" of Mexico.  Maybe someone wants to see it that way for dramatic effect. The so called Narco Cartels are just glorified drug dealing gangs, and they are not claiming independence from Mexico.  The now defunct pro-Native separatist movement of "Subcomandante Marcos" in Chiapas, decades ago, held more of a legitimate claim, in my opinion...


I don't think the article is claiming that the Narco gangs are claiming independence, but rather that the area is not under the control of the legitimate government.


False. I protest. The Army is not actually prevented from invading any part of those territories ANY time they want. Mostly the narcos are hiding.  There is no armed conflict trying to control the land, and whether the narcos violated the laws of the country, they are able to do so, only becase they are not caught in the act.  Claiming that the area is "not under control" is basically putting Mexico's northern states in the same category as the ISIL and Al Nusra terrotories in Siria, and that is not even close to what is happening in Mexico.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 02:58:51 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 03:07:11 am »

Are the civilian police in control of the areas in question?

MOD NOTE: I'm not trying to start an argument, and I make no claim that what little information I have on the situation is accurate, coming as it does through mass-media news organizations.
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2015, 03:12:49 am »

Are the civilian police in control of the areas in question?

MOD NOTE: I'm not trying to start an argument, and I make no claim that what little information I have on the situation is accurate, coming as it does through mass-media news organizations.


Indeed, the police are having difficulty controlling the organised crime. The state forces are overpowered by the gangs at the local level, but whenever they get support they indeed battle and overtake the  gangs on a case by case basis, but not actually being able to catch the leaders or destroy the organisation, which is why the military is present very often.

But that is ALL that these people are: organised crime.  I'm just tired of the sensationalist conclusions - Mexico is a country who is constantly getting its character assassinated by the media. I just feel I have to speak up.

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« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 05:54:39 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged
Atterton
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2015, 06:18:54 am »

Even Sweden have places where the police have lost control and criminals run things. Doesn't really mean those areas are not Sweden.
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2015, 06:29:44 am »

The subject is indeed fascinating, but the map is... perhaps not the best map for the purpose.  There are some ugly labels and really awful assumptions involved in parts - I won't discuss which, as that really would make it political.

Has anybody got another map?  This should be explored further.



Cheers!

Chas.
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2015, 12:50:55 pm »

In the Sea of China, there are constantly new islands being artificially created by the PRC, which creates problems.
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Captain Lyerly
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2015, 04:52:16 pm »

That is an area with at least three competing claims, not what the original post was referring to - areas with no claims at all, or weak claims at best.


Cheers!

Chas.
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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2015, 10:22:01 pm »

The subject is indeed fascinating, but the map is... perhaps not the best map for the purpose.  There are some ugly labels and really awful assumptions involved in parts - I won't discuss which, as that really would make it political.

Has anybody got another map?  This should be explored further.



Cheers!

Chas.

 Yes all maps and  links are welcome for means of  extending the discussion. This is a  rather controversial subject

   - Let the debate rage on -
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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2015, 10:53:32 pm »

Are the civilian police in control of the areas in question?

MOD NOTE: I'm not trying to start an argument, and I make no claim that what little information I have on the situation is accurate, coming as it does through mass-media news organizations.


Indeed, the police are having difficulty controlling the organised crime. The state forces are overpowered by the gangs at the local level, but whenever they get support they indeed battle and overtake the  gangs on a case by case basis, but not actually being able to catch the leaders or destroy the organisation, which is why the military is present very often.

But that is ALL that these people are: organised crime.  I'm just tired of the sensationalist conclusions - Mexico is a country who is constantly getting its character assassinated by the media. I just feel I have to speak up.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


 I can see parallels here with  New Zealand.   There is record unemployment , particularly for those under 25 years.  People are being encouraged to clock up huge  student debt for  qualifications they   never get to use.  The result is the highest educated unemployed in the world. Semi organised drug [and related ] crime  is  a big industry.  Off shore corporate are   taking   New Zealand  industries , businesses and developments to the detriment of the country

 I could go on  ...
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2015, 09:24:18 am »

The subject is indeed fascinating, but the map is... perhaps not the best map for the purpose.  There are some ugly labels and really awful assumptions involved in parts - I won't discuss which, as that really would make it political.

Has anybody got another map?  This should be explored further.



Cheers!

Chas.

I was thinking just that while looking at this map.

It's not really a chart of ambiguously owned territories, which was the speculation in the OP.  That might be a very interesting map to see.

This one, however, has many terribly problematic labels.  One hardly knows what the authors think are "anomalies" unless it is somehow deviation from the set-in-stone eternally stable borders of Victorian myth.
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2015, 03:53:31 pm »

There is a bit of a difference between areas that do not have an effective government and rule of law, and those that are unoccupied or unowned by anybody, which is the better definition of 'terra nullius'.

I believe there are a few anomalous patches between the various borders in Eastern Europe that are technically outside the borders of two neighbouring nations due to changes in river-flows that are considered as having been legal borders.

Some chap has recently planted his flag on Bir Tawil between Egypt and Sudan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil

These days, with every nation claiming - or creating - any tidal rock off their coasts as a legal extension of their nautical limits, the closest thing to that ideal getaway would be some small claimed-but-overlooked uninhabited island.

Some of the atolls in the South Pacific, or along the western coasts of Canada perhaps?
Sure they are probably technically listed as wildlife sanctuaries or belong to some clan on a nearby larger island, but as a venue to go Robinson Crusoe they could possibly work if you didn't draw the attention of whichever authority only occasionally remembers that they claim them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_island
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2015, 04:38:46 pm »

Now and then a new island is created, due to an undersea volcanic eruption. A few well placed explosives could perhaps speed such a process up, giving you a new island in international waters.
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2015, 04:52:43 pm »

Now and then a new island is created, due to an undersea volcanic eruption. A few well placed explosives could perhaps speed such a process up, giving you a new island in international waters.

Any explosive powerful enough to appreciably affect volcanic island creation is likely to be heavily regulated by UN convention.
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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2015, 04:57:00 pm »



These days, with every nation claiming - or creating - any tidal rock off their coasts as a legal extension of their nautical limits, the closest thing to that ideal getaway would be some small claimed-but-overlooked uninhabited island.

Some of the atolls in the South Pacific, or along the western coasts of Canada perhaps?
Sure they are probably technically listed as wildlife sanctuaries or belong to some clan on a nearby larger island, but as a venue to go Robinson Crusoe they could possibly work if you didn't draw the attention of whichever authority only occasionally remembers that they claim them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_island


 Mr Strange ,  the  South Pacific is notorious for islands that come an go off the maps and radar.   Early explorers and recent surveyors have puzzled over   mysterious  small islands and large  rocky out crops   that  disappear and reappear.

 There is potential scientific explanation for these mysteries.  Along the plates of the Pacific Ring of Fire   there are large seismic faults and  volcanoes , some of which  are under water. Earthquakes can  and do   raise land above the water live or  cause land to sink  under the waves.  Volcanic action can either  blow the top off   under water mountains that previously popped up above the water  ;  or spew lava that creates  an new  island  .  Climate change and raised  water levels also play their part.  Water erosion , storm  and tsunami  can wipe an island off the map.

  The North Island of New Zealand  is built mainly of   archipelago being filled in by  volcanic activity over the centuries.  The South Island is a long mountainous  fault line   that has been raised by seismic action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand  [ this  entry is politically contentious]


 Kiribati  in the Pacific is sinking under the waves as are other island and atolls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribati
http://www.climate.gov.ki/category/effects/coastal-erosion/

 Pacific Ring of Fire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Fire
http://www.earthobservatory.sg/resources/maps/ring-fire



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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2015, 05:03:05 pm »

Now and then a new island is created, due to an undersea volcanic eruption. A few well placed explosives could perhaps speed such a process up, giving you a new island in international waters.


Any explosive powerful enough to appreciably affect volcanic island creation is likely to be heavily regulated by UN convention.


  Like any of the  UN Conventions are  adhered to in the Southern  Pacific regions  Tongue

 No doubt there have been experiments  undergone in the past.   Joint  military operations have seen  amoung other things -  atomic bomb testing, weather control experiments and   Operation Seal that  involved  attempting to generate tsunami



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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2015, 05:11:50 pm »

Now and then a new island is created, due to an undersea volcanic eruption. A few well placed explosives could perhaps speed such a process up, giving you a new island in international waters.


  The Kermadec Ridge  in the Southern Pacific is  an example    of  sch volcanic activity that is being  closely watched


http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/volcanoes/page-6
http://info.geonet.org.nz/display/volc/Kermadec+Islands]http://www.radionz.co.nz/[url]http://info.geonet.org.nz/display/volc/Kermadec+Islands
http://info.geonet.org.nz/display/volc/Kermadec+Islands

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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2015, 05:19:12 pm »

Please tell me Operation Seal was trying to create a tsunami using actual circus trained seals.

As for island creation, I think you will need something more sophisticated than dropping a bomb from on high.
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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2015, 05:31:12 pm »

Please tell me Operation Seal was trying to create a tsunami using actual circus trained seals.

As for island creation, I think you will need something more sophisticated than dropping a bomb from on high.



 Sorry to dash your illusions  - maybe they would have had more success if they had used real seals
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/best-kept-secret-world-war-two-%E2%80%94-project-seal-tsunami-bomb-ck-134614
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2015, 04:09:22 pm »

Maybe we could find a way to bind seawater into a solid rock? Like, jelly-concrete. It wouldn't be the strongest, but if we could produce a large amount of rubble above a seamount it would technically be an island...

Yes, I'm aware that the law of the sea doesn't recognise artificial islands.
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2015, 05:52:20 pm »

Maybe we could find a way to bind seawater into a solid rock? Like, jelly-concrete. It wouldn't be the strongest, but if we could produce a large amount of rubble above a seamount it would technically be an island...

Yes, I'm aware that the law of the sea doesn't recognise artificial islands.

Doesn't it?  I thought new-built artificial islands were the foundation of China's present claim to the oceanic territory between Taiwan, the Philippines, and Viet Nam.  (Mind you, I think no one ought to build islands as the Chinese have, by smothering living underwater coral reefs under sand and concrete.)
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