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Author Topic: Dieselpunk vs. Pulp  (Read 10050 times)
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2007, 04:14:45 pm »

Sounds very much like a combination therefore, of "That Was Pulp" (in that, only fiction written at that time can be called pulp), and "Dieselpunk Isnt Pulp" (because it's an extrapolation of Steampunk).

Would you agree, Mr Ottens?
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2007, 04:20:26 pm »

"That Was Pulp" is pretty much where I'd start, yes.  I think only the fiction produced in the Pulp Era can be regarded as true Pulp fiction.  However, I do not think that Dieselpunk "exists on it's own merits".  Like Steampunk has its roots in period Scientific Romances and Voyages Extraordinaries, Dieselpunk is . . . "retro-Pulp",  anachronistic Pulp Era fiction.
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2007, 08:14:08 pm »

However due to the relative lack of fiction that fits this description the suggestion has been raised that “Dieselpunk” may in fact be nothing else than Pulp fiction.

In a nutshell then perhaps we need: more creating and less debating?

There are threads discussing if dieselpunk is retro-futurism and/or pulp (to some extent) or if steampunk is retro-futursim (I remain to be convinced) but really if someone wants to call something dieselpunk or even "dieselpunk" then I'm not going to lose sleep over it so how about cracking on and discussing...

Sky Captain
The Rocketeer
Tom Strong!!! To Dieselpunk, as League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is to Steampunk!! Heavy pulp influences too. Wink
1984
Brazil
Dark City
12 Monkeys?
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2007, 09:38:26 pm »

I dunno.. I don't think the Dystopian media that was listed would fit (1984, Brazil, and 12 Monkeys). Those don't exactly have a retro vibe to them Brazil's world is like the ultimate comodification of the early 80's. Everything is by the numbers and beuracratic and looks like very dreary office buildings. They do have lots of weird ventilations shafts, and such. But I don't think it really looks all that retro.

12 Monkeys certainly wouldn't fit either. It's mostly set in 1990's Americca. No alternate hostory at all. Then the future world looks like a frozen post-apocalyptic environment.

I don't recall the style of 1984, but I think it did have a fair bot of deco in the visuals.

Oh and ixnay on the Rocketeer. That is pure and total Pulp revival. I'd even go so far as to say the sam about Skycaptain. But since everyone seems to be seeing that film as the basis for Dieselpunk, I'll let it slide (but it really does fit all of the trappings af classic 30's Pulp. In fact I doubt the creators have ever heard the terms Diesel or Steampunk.)

Now to name some media that I think the name could apply to (and don't fall within the realm of Pulp):

The Castle Wolfenstein Series (N*zi Zombies, Experimental WW2 technology, etc.)
Ring of Red (WW2 Mech combat)
Sin City (I think it qualifies for the out of the norm elements)
Metropolis (both versions)
Casshern (more Dieselpunk, than Steampunk)
Batman and Batman Returns
Tale Spin (some episodes definitely fit the criteria, but it's mostly Pulp influenced)
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2007, 10:47:11 pm »

Oh and ixnay on the Rocketeer. That is pure and total Pulp revival. I'd even go so far as to say the sam about Skycaptain. But since everyone seems to be seeing that film as the basis for Dieselpunk, I'll let it slide (but it really does fit all of the trappings af classic 30's Pulp. In fact I doubt the creators have ever heard the terms Diesel or Steampunk.)

Need it be either or?
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2007, 10:59:03 pm »

I dunno.. I don't think the Dystopian media that was listed would fit (1984, Brazil, and 12 Monkeys). Those don't exactly have a retro vibe to them Brazil's world is like the ultimate comodification of the early 80's. Everything is by the numbers and beuracratic and looks like very dreary office buildings. They do have lots of weird ventilations shafts, and such. But I don't think it really looks all that retro.

12 Monkeys certainly wouldn't fit either. It's mostly set in 1990's Americca. No alternate hostory at all. Then the future world looks like a frozen post-apocalyptic environment.

I don't recall the style of 1984, but I think it did have a fair bot of deco in the visuals.

Oh and ixnay on the Rocketeer. That is pure and total Pulp revival. I'd even go so far as to say the sam about Skycaptain. But since everyone seems to be seeing that film as the basis for Dieselpunk, I'll let it slide (but it really does fit all of the trappings af classic 30's Pulp. In fact I doubt the creators have ever heard the terms Diesel or Steampunk.)

Now to name some media that I think the name could apply to (and don't fall within the realm of Pulp):

The Castle Wolfenstein Series (N*zi Zombies, Experimental WW2 technology, etc.)
Ring of Red (WW2 Mech combat)
Sin City (I think it qualifies for the out of the norm elements)
Metropolis (both versions)
Casshern (more Dieselpunk, than Steampunk)
Batman and Batman Returns
Tale Spin (some episodes definitely fit the criteria, but it's mostly Pulp influenced)



12 Monkeys is an elaborative work to a large degree based on the French classic "La Jete". La Jete is very dystopic, and very retro.
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2007, 11:12:20 pm »

Oh and ixnay on the Rocketeer. That is pure and total Pulp revival. I'd even go so far as to say the sam about Skycaptain. But since everyone seems to be seeing that film as the basis for Dieselpunk, I'll let it slide (but it really does fit all of the trappings af classic 30's Pulp. In fact I doubt the creators have ever heard the terms Diesel or Steampunk.)

Need it be either or?

I just think that if the creators of the story call it Pulp, then who are we to call it something else?

Fantomas:

Oh I didn't realize that it wasn't an original concept. Can't that Terry Giliam come up with anything original anymore?  Tongue
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 11:20:06 pm by VernianProcess » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2007, 03:24:51 am »

Oh and ixnay on the Rocketeer. That is pure and total Pulp revival. I'd even go so far as to say the sam about Skycaptain. But since everyone seems to be seeing that film as the basis for Dieselpunk, I'll let it slide (but it really does fit all of the trappings af classic 30's Pulp. In fact I doubt the creators have ever heard the terms Diesel or Steampunk.)


Need it be either or?


I just think that if the creators of the story call it Pulp, then who are we to call it something else?


Once it is out in the public domain people can categorise it how they feel. Especially if there is so much crossover.

Fantomas:

Oh I didn't realize that it wasn't an original concept. Can't that Terry Giliam come up with anything original anymore?  Tongue


You can watch the whole of La Jetée here:

Original French:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7113165152671062793

English dub:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5354377779883726771


See this post for more things Gilliam helped himself to:
www.brassgoggles.co.uk/bg-forum/index.php?topic=236.msg2752#msg2752
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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2007, 05:12:18 am »

It should be remembered that names for literary and filmic movements are usually given after the fact.  No one called 'The Maltese Falcon' film noir when it came out- that term came after WWII.  Even the idea of pulp is one that is somewhat after the fact- no one would have called the original Hardy Boys or Rover Boys stories pulp, even though they were.  Not everyone would have seen the connection between them and soap opera-ish romance magazines until perhaps the 30s and 40s, when dime novels and magazines were finally known collectively as 'pulp fiction' to many people in the general public.

BTW- I beg to disagree on something.  The term 'fantasy' does not include everything from 'Clash of the Titans' to wanting to have sex on the copier. 'Fantasy in literature and movies refers to a relatively specific categroy of material, that includes whimsy, fantastical creatures and occurrences and non-existent or heightened fictional versions of places.  'Lord of the Rings' and 'Clash of the Titans' would both be included. A further division would be the sub-head of 'sword and sorcery'; another might be 'legend and saga'. 'Sword and sorcery' includes things like 'Lord of the Rings' and non-canon versions of Sinbad stories, both of which are set in a never-was world (the Bagdad of old Sinbad movies has nothing to do with the real city depicted in 1001 Nights); sagas and legends include more canonical versions of Beowulf, Jason and the Argonauts, and so on.  There can be cross-breeding between the two.

Think of it as a sort of Dewey Decimal System of speculative fiction.
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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2007, 05:18:12 am »

Emperor-- Thank you so much, dear sir!
I have been wanting to see this for ages!
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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2007, 08:50:44 am »

Might I suggest that the "Punk" suffix creates much of the problem.

It relegates "Dieselpunk" to a derivative of a derivative of a genre. The fact of the matter is that most of what we enjoy about this pastime is rather gentile and distinctly non-punk. This is why I use the term Gaslamp Fantasy for all my neo-victorian creations.

Sadly, Steampunk has become so ingrained that it would be difficult, if not nigh imposable to break it's hold on our nomenclature.  I encourage you to rage against this fate for it's relatively young Diesel cousin.

Of course this is just my humble opinion.

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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2007, 10:02:30 am »

Yup.
Though I'm fond of the term Dieselpunk, I seem to be in the minority. Dieselpulp has been suggested, as has petrolpulp.
I don't like these as much, but hey, at this point I'll settle for just about anything if we can put nomenclature battles behind us, and start discussing what it COULD be.
Oh, just thought of another alternative-- Dieselfict  for Diesel fiction

I do have a couple technological examples:
 
A diesel moped, German design from 1952 that never really caught on. Actually an 18cc add-on motor for bicycles that ran on parafin, but supposedly it could be easily run on diesel, ether, or straight vegetable oil. I'm not sure of the cruising or top speeds for this puppy, but reported fuel usage was around 477 mpg!!

Diesel motorcycles-- Apparently the Royal Enfield plant in India made some bikes based on the classic Royal Enfield design, with a diesel powerplant. There have been a few other experiments as well as, I believe, a production bike in Russia, Dnepr, which was diesel. Something about these bikes, with classic styling cues from the Pulp era, with a diesel engine, screams post apocalyptic reliability to me. A small community that could produce their own vegetable oil, and had some metalurgical resources, could keep a stable of these going for sometime...
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« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2007, 03:37:24 pm »

Might I suggest that the "Punk" suffix creates much of the problem.

It relegates "Dieselpunk" to a derivative of a derivative of a genre. The fact of the matter is that most of what we enjoy about this pastime is rather gentile and distinctly non-punk. This is why I use the term Gaslamp Fantasy for all my neo-victorian creations.

Sadly, Steampunk has become so ingrained that it would be difficult, if not nigh imposable to break it's hold on our nomenclature.  I encourage you to rage against this fate for it's relatively young Diesel cousin.

Of course this is just my humble opinion.



I would agree. I rather like 'Gaslight Romance'.  It takes in everything from costumed Dickens carolers to Retro-futurism. Most of us fall into more than one category, I think.
One might think in terms of 'Pre-50s Pulp' as a way of discussing the period after Queen Victoria but before the atomic  age.  That wold include everything from Nazi dirigibles and daring archaeologists hunts religious artifacts to mad scientists building Art Deco robot armies in the Carpathian mountains.
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« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2007, 04:11:46 pm »

Emperor-- Thank you so much, dear sir!
I have been wanting to see this for ages!

It must have been upoaded recently as I went looking a few months back and only found the French version.

The English version is on the DVD if you want a better quality version.

www.amazon.co.uk/Jetee-Sans-Soleil-Alexandra-Stewart/dp/B00009WW1R/
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« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2007, 06:05:40 pm »

Might I suggest that the "Punk" suffix creates much of the problem.

It relegates "Dieselpunk" to a derivative of a derivative of a genre. The fact of the matter is that most of what we enjoy about this pastime is rather gentile and distinctly non-punk. This is why I use the term Gaslamp Fantasy for all my neo-victorian creations.

Sadly, Steampunk has become so ingrained that it would be difficult, if not nigh imposable to break it's hold on our nomenclature.  I encourage you to rage against this fate for it's relatively young Diesel cousin.

Of course this is just my humble opinion.


And a damn fine one it is too.

The discussion in various threads here had made me realise something similar. I suspect the name arose from more of an inside joke than an attempt to be that serious. GURPS hammered out a whole series of other X-punk names to hang some stories off but I don't really think we have to take the labels too seriously (I'm sure a lot of people here have fought against being labelled all their lives after all Wink ).

It leads to some odd classification problems as you can only be Steampunk after the name was established in the late eighties so there is some kind of imaginary line in the sand but looking at what is considered "early Steampunk" (proto_Steampunk?) shows a clear continuum from the 19th Century to the present (suggesting more of an evolving and dynamic genre rather than some kind of modern reinvention of Victorian sci-fi):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk#Early_steampunk

Somehow Morlock Night (1979) and The Steel Tsar (1981) don't make the cut but The Anubis Gate (1983) does, despite the fact that it contains neither Steam nor Punks. Wink

I think Steampunk is too firmly embedded to to be changed but that doesn't mean other people looking at other genres need stick to the X-punk path. Thing is adding punk on the end makes it sound cooler. If you describe yourself as Neo-Victorian then all you are going to get are jokes about covering up the legs of pianos

If I was going to suggest a name I think Jess Nevins' book title does the job: Fantastic Victoriana. Fantastic: including anachronistic technology, magic and weirdness. Victoriana: a period or a pseudo/Neo-Victorian setting. Covers all the bases and isn't too overly restrictive.
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« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2007, 10:02:42 pm »

and now, from the bottom of my brain something screams

MAD MAX!

oh, alternative world
fill me up of high octane fumes
screaming onmy veins and
propell me to tomorrow!

(there's a nice lady there, serving tea in lovely china cups) (dot, punkt)
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« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2007, 10:07:00 pm »

Yeah, but the Mad Max series is set in the wrong era for Diesel-X.
But if you knocked it back 3 or 4 decades... you'd have something pretty close to what I envision as Dieselpunk.
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« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2007, 01:09:51 am »

I think that the punk in dieselpunk makes much sense: Dieselpunk to me is less pulp, and more 1984 (the book, haven't seen the movie versions). The world that existed within WW2 propaganda, a world of mass production and uniformity. Everything is streamlined; not for comfort or ergonomics, but economics and "progress".

Of course, i am one of the few who like the term steampunk as well...
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« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2007, 03:06:48 am »

Dont forget about Atomicpunk! Grin
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« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2007, 04:46:42 am »

Atomicpunk sounds like it should be the name for a retro 80's punk band, you know, with all day-glo neon fashion.
That or it reminds me of Fishbone's "Party at Ground Zero"
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« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2007, 05:07:48 am »

Oh and ixnay on the Rocketeer. That is pure and total Pulp revival. I'd even go so far as to say the sam about Skycaptain. But since everyone seems to be seeing that film as the basis for Dieselpunk, I'll let it slide (but it really does fit all of the trappings af classic 30's Pulp. In fact I doubt the creators have ever heard the terms Diesel or Steampunk.)

Need it be either or?

I just think that if the creators of the story call it Pulp, then who are we to call it something else?

Fantomas:

Oh I didn't realize that it wasn't an original concept. Can't that Terry Giliam come up with anything original anymore?  Tongue
Childish Jabs and uninformed mockery don't belong here and if they do then it isn't someplace I want to contribute. Your mocking response is totally inappropriate for a moderator. You appear to consider how it will look before you do it. I am sure that I am not the only person who feels less like posting every time you do it. The only message it sends is "walk on eggshells around this guy because he won't let it go and uses his position of responsibility for the intimidation it affords,you are not allowed to disagree with him".

Because of your attitude toward my comments (basically just because they are mine)  I feel uncomfortable posting and unwelcome. I am not the only one. I expect jabs from either yourself or Cory every time I click post. This petty VENDETTA you have for me , has been your decision to hold onto from the very moment that I commented on brass goggles "cassettes" post about how your work didn't do it for me (not on its quality, not on its execution, but just on my personal preferences). For this you felt it was necessary to email me and "correct my misunderstanding".
Only I didn't misunderstand anything, I didn't even dislike it, its just not my thing.

really, if it doesn't stop I'm just going to leave.

now, with that said for your information 12 monkeys WAS based to a large degree on La Jete, thats just a fact. If you want to see for yourself try watching the film it's only 20 minutes long, and was INCLUDED on one of the special editions of twelve monkeys.
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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2007, 05:30:39 am »

Fantomas--- Easy there big fella.
I know this debate has gotten pretty heated at times.
But I thought VP was just trying to add some levity to the discussion in that post. That's how I interpreted the  Tongue as playful, not as mocking.

Sure, I don't always agree with VP and Cory on the semantics of everything. Still, I respect their knowledge and passion on the subjects...
As I do yours.
Chin up, Stiff Upper Lip, right, right?
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« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2007, 05:42:37 am »

I rather like 'Gaslight Romance'. 

Mmmm. Yes

May I say I also like a good Gaslight Romance...  Wink
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« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2007, 10:59:39 am »

...
Fantomas:

Oh I didn't realize that it wasn't an original concept. Can't that Terry Giliam come up with anything original anymore?  Tongue
Childish Jabs and uninformed mockery don't belong here and if they do then it isn't someplace I want to contribute. Your mocking response is totally inappropriate for a moderator. You appear to consider how it will look before you do it. I am sure that I am not the only person who feels less like posting every time you do it. The only message it sends is "walk on eggshells around this guy because he won't let it go and uses his position of responsibility for the intimidation it affords,you are not allowed to disagree with him".

Because of your attitude toward my comments (basically just because they are mine)  I feel uncomfortable posting and unwelcome. I am not the only one. I expect jabs from either yourself or Cory every time I click post. This petty VENDETTA you have for me , has been your decision to hold onto from the very moment that I commented on brass goggles "cassettes" post about how your work didn't do it for me (not on its quality, not on its execution, but just on my personal preferences). For this you felt it was necessary to email me and "correct my misunderstanding".
Only I didn't misunderstand anything, I didn't even dislike it, its just not my thing.

really, if it doesn't stop I'm just going to leave.

now, with that said for your information 12 monkeys WAS based to a large degree on La Jete, thats just a fact. If you want to see for yourself try watching the film it's only 20 minutes long, and was INCLUDED on one of the special editions of twelve monkeys.


Gentlemen, please.  Firstly, I agree that a place that childish jabs and uninformed mockery exists and is allowed is a place I don't want to be a part of, and that would be very sad indeed.  If the Steampunk Forum should degenerate to the state where such things are considered normal, and not thought of as hideously impolite one-off outbursts, then the forum would have gone well beyond what I had ever wished for it, and I would have to close it down.

However - while I cannot say what was on VP's mind when he posted that one comment, I do know that generally I try to give people the benefit of the doubt ESPECIALLY in an online medium restricted to quickly written text and the occasional yellow face with an expression.  Looking at it one way, it could look like a bitter jab, dripping with the lowest form of wit.  On the other hand, it could just be an attempt at cammeraderie and a humerous digg at a well known writer's habits.

If VP or Fantômas, or indeed anyone else on the forum believe that they have some kind of rivalry, unworkable dislike or repeated locking of horns problem with one another, then I'd like to hope that you would either discuss it between the two of you privately in PM, or if it involves some sort of power difference, that you believe would be abused, then contact myself or Dohicky (Andy) as Admins to mediate.

Really, I don't want anyone at all to leave - everyone here has demonstrated a liking for Steampunk, and an ability to post intelligently and contribute in different ways.  Please let me help to iron out any slights, percieved or concrete, before they get too knotty.

Normal service may now resume.
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« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2007, 11:20:05 am »

...
Fantomas:

Oh I didn't realize that it wasn't an original concept. Can't that Terry Giliam come up with anything original anymore?  Tongue
Childish Jabs and uninformed mockery don't belong here and if they do then it isn't someplace I want to contribute. Your mocking response is totally inappropriate for a moderator. You appear to consider how it will look before you do it. I am sure that I am not the only person who feels less like posting every time you do it. The only message it sends is "walk on eggshells around this guy because he won't let it go and uses his position of responsibility for the intimidation it affords,you are not allowed to disagree with him".

Because of your attitude toward my comments (basically just because they are mine)  I feel uncomfortable posting and unwelcome. I am not the only one. I expect jabs from either yourself or Cory every time I click post. This petty VENDETTA you have for me , has been your decision to hold onto from the very moment that I commented on brass goggles "cassettes" post about how your work didn't do it for me (not on its quality, not on its execution, but just on my personal preferences). For this you felt it was necessary to email me and "correct my misunderstanding".
Only I didn't misunderstand anything, I didn't even dislike it, its just not my thing.

really, if it doesn't stop I'm just going to leave.

now, with that said for your information 12 monkeys WAS based to a large degree on La Jete, thats just a fact. If you want to see for yourself try watching the film it's only 20 minutes long, and was INCLUDED on one of the special editions of twelve monkeys.


Gentlemen, please.  Firstly, I agree that a place that childish jabs and uninformed mockery exists and is allowed is a place I don't want to be a part of, and that would be very sad indeed.  If the Steampunk Forum should degenerate to the state where such things are considered normal, and not thought of as hideously impolite one-off outbursts, then the forum would have gone well beyond what I had ever wished for it, and I would have to close it down.

However - while I cannot say what was on VP's mind when he posted that one comment, I do know that generally I try to give people the benefit of the doubt ESPECIALLY in an online medium restricted to quickly written text and the occasional yellow face with an expression.  Looking at it one way, it could look like a bitter jab, dripping with the lowest form of wit.  On the other hand, it could just be an attempt at cammeraderie and a humerous digg at a well known writer's habits.

If VP or Fantômas, or indeed anyone else on the forum believe that they have some kind of rivalry, unworkable dislike or repeated locking of horns problem with one another, then I'd like to hope that you would either discuss it between the two of you privately in PM, or if it involves some sort of power difference, that you believe would be abused, then contact myself or Dohicky (Andy) as Admins to mediate.

Really, I don't want anyone at all to leave - everyone here has demonstrated a liking for Steampunk, and an ability to post intelligently and contribute in different ways.  Please let me help to iron out any slights, percieved or concrete, before they get too knotty.

Normal service may now resume.


I do think it's unfortunate that it's gone this rout. I believe I did try at one point to establish a mature, private dialog. I usually do if I sense tension or impending conflict in some exchange, I think it's better rather than display it, that....is not my preference.
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