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Author Topic: victorian era armour  (Read 5425 times)
Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2015, 10:25:37 pm »

Some slightly more surreal examples of WW1 armour. http://gizmodo.com/5845628/how-to-bulletproof-yourself-on-a-wwi-battlefield/  .
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creagmor
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« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2015, 08:22:21 am »

jonb: the Japanese used the ray skin instead of iron (steel?) plate or mail. I discovered this while watching one of those auction shows on TV when someone took a purse made from the stuff in to an expert to have it appraised. 
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« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2015, 12:35:13 am »

French Cavalry 1914.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

German anti sniper armour WW1.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Same design adapted (in lighter weight plastic) for Steampunk purposes.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


In the middle picture, the man on the right is holding an early antitank rifle, while the man on the left is holding a captured Chauchat (apparently an AMERICAN one at that, judging by the magazine).  The Chauchat, incidentally, is an ancestor of the STEn gun, & by comparison, makes the STEn look like a work of art.  (For those unfamiliar with the terminology, STEn is the correct spelling- it derives from the names of the two designers, Shepherd & Turpin, & where they developed it- Enfield).
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pakled
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« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2015, 05:27:44 am »

They were often called 'so-so's, and worse...Wink They were not thought highly of...but that's out of period...Wink
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Mr. Boltneck
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2015, 09:36:11 pm »

Ray-skins were not, as far as I know, commonly used as armor in Japan, as they are fairly thin. They were, and are, used as the base layer on the hilts of swords and knives, as it gives a good grip, even when wet from sweat or rain. Shark and ray skins are not unknown on European saber hilts, for similar reasons. If you look at a katana, the pebbly leather below the cord wrappings is typically ray-skin, and there are specimens of stretched skins of particularly high quality which were framed and given as presentation gifts.
Typically, a lot of traditional Japanese armor was cow leather, under lacquer, and other treatments to make it tough. I have read that certain armor makers valued the hide found on the knee joints of cows as particularly tough stuff, although tales of entire suits of cow-knee leather are said to be apocryphal.
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jonb
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« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2015, 03:01:19 am »


Ah the sten gun, the three shilling and 6 pence machine gun, less reliable than 'Microsoft Windows Millennium (2000), less accurate than an RAF night bomb run of 1941, less range than a paper dart, it could not even be used as a club. The sten gun was usually given to the trooper that was likely to be shot well before he came in contact with the enemy, you know the mad and or truly hopeless. My father was equipped with one.

On the subject of Armour most people think it was designed to stop all blows, but in truth it never was and could not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3jV93rNils
If you look at the video of a modern 21 man fight with blunt weapons you will see that although the armour is not pierced the hammering still brings the men down, where in a real battle they would not be able to defend themselves and be dispatched. Also being in armour you over heat so you can only fight for a very short time, effectively ten minutes at most, so it is only useful in the first few moments of a fight, the initial clash. This is  why there have always been light troops on a battle field they become effective when those encased in armour have become ineffective. The art in ancient times was to hold off the heavy armoured men long enough that the light troops could sweep over them. That is what Hannibal did at the battle of Cannae which was the biggest killing battle up until the first day of the Somme.
What armour is for is not to stop all blows that would make it too cumbersome, but rather to lessen the effect, to deflect the slight cut. Thus the wire cage hidden in the hussars braiding will not stop a well aimed  thrust of a sword but it will stop the glancing sweeping cut. The breast plate can deflect a blow, but it could not stop a well aimed thrust that hit it directly.
This is why the sword of an Anglo-Saxon or Viking was sharper than that of a medieval knight. The Viking sword was designed to cut through lighter armour, when mediaeval plate armour came in the sword became blunter but designed to deliver a strong hit to the armour which would wind and injure the person inside the armour with the power of the hit alone, and then at the end of the mediaeval period Europeans were using very fine thin light swords to find gaps in the plate.
Given the above maybe looking at Steampunk armour we might want to include a motor or motors within it so the wearer is not having to carry all of its weight, and a cooling system so the person enclosed in it does not overheat.
so this might be an idea but afternoonified
   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 03:09:21 am by jonb » Logged
creagmor
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2015, 05:38:06 am »

RE: Mr Boltneck: All I know is what I saw on TV. The person said that they were used because they were so tough and difficult to penetrate. As you obviously have more knowledge about, I cannot, with any  honesty debate the subject. But think about it if it is on reality   TV it simply has to be true, right? Smiley
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jonb
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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2015, 02:00:28 pm »

Ray skin might not stop a hit on its own, but as part of a laminate it could be useful in deflecting a blow. The trouble with TV is often not that it is out-rightly wrong, but in that they only have time to mention part of a story rather than examining in full depth It can leave the viewer with over inflated ideas about a thing. (Thus my views on Roman invention.)

What about soft armour. The Mongols wore loose fitting silks under their armour. The silk did not stop an arrow or anything from penetrating the body. However the silk was not cut by the arrow or sword and went into the wound around the arrow head or sword blade. This meant that firstly the silk kept the wound clean and the person was less likely to be infected with the dirt etcetera that might be on the projectile and secondly it also meant the projectile could much more easily be removed. So the recovery rate for Mongols after a battle was much better than their enemies. So even if they lost the first battle they would be better able to fight a second time.
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Madasasteamfish
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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2015, 03:47:32 pm »

What about soft armour. The Mongols wore loose fitting silks under their armour. The silk did not stop an arrow or anything from penetrating the body. However the silk was not cut by the arrow or sword and went into the wound around the arrow head or sword blade. This meant that firstly the silk kept the wound clean and the person was less likely to be infected with the dirt etcetera that might be on the projectile and secondly it also meant the projectile could much more easily be removed. So the recovery rate for Mongols after a battle was much better than their enemies. So even if they lost the first battle they would be better able to fight a second time.

Well there is a kind of precedent for soft armour (beyond kevlar and the like which use their weave to disperse the impact of the projectile), I remember watching a documentary about historical weaponry that featured a kind of 'arrow shield' used by Samurai on horseback. In essence it was a large silk sheet they tied around their neck and waist which (when riding) filled with air and any arrows fired into it were absorbed by the fabric and it's movement, robbing them of almost all momentum (the host/expert was actually so impressed with the results on testing with a dummy he successfully tried it himself).

Of course soft armour makes a lot of sense given than all armour is a trade off between protection and maneuverability, the better the armour, the more protection it offers and less it constricts the wearer.
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jonb
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« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2015, 04:11:54 pm »

And without knowing who would recognise that Samurai silk as armour? Same way we look at a Victorian Bearskin hat and just don't realise how effective it is at stopping a sword blow, or when we look at the chin strap do we think ah yes that is there to stop a swinging sword cut to the side of a face or chin.



We tend to think those old fashioned/foreign things are just quaint because we don't think about the jobs they were designed to do, once we start looking into old designs we find they were often far more practical than we would now ever imagine.
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Mr. Boltneck
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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2015, 10:12:53 pm »

One good thing to keep in mind about armor that's in a collection or museum is that, no matter where it is from, you are much more likely to see high-end parade armor or tournament armor, made for the nobility, than you are to see working armor as worn by most people of that period. This happens for a few reasons. First, it's a crowd-pleaser: this is where all the stops are pulled out in metalwork and finishing, and it looks fantastic. Second, the working stuff tended to get beaten into scrap, stolen, remade, and so forth. Much the same applies to weapons. It can make you appreciate how rare it is to see things like the Wallace Collection. In a number of cases, there are types of arms and armor which are better known from contemporaneous artworks than from surviving specimens.
One of the most widely used types of armor, from East Asia to England, over several centuries, is some variation on the "jack": rows of metal plates sewn between the layers of leather and, in some cases, fabric. This was what a decently-equipped soldier wore, and countless numbers must have been made, but surviving examples are rare, not only because they were on the front lines, but because a bunch of leather and fabric gets pretty well rotted out after a few years of heavy use. The lovely plate worn by the men directing the battles, at least when appropriate, lasts for centuries with a bit of care.
This tends to distort a lot of people's viewpoints, including costume designers and, bless 'em, any number of Victorian gentleman antiquarians in love with the Middle Ages.
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Steampunk Away
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« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2015, 03:00:27 am »

And without knowing who would recognise that Samurai silk as armour? Same way we look at a Victorian Bearskin hat and just don't realise how effective it is at stopping a sword blow, or when we look at the chin strap do we think ah yes that is there to stop a swinging sword cut to the side of a face or chin.



We tend to think those old fashioned/foreign things are just quaint because we don't think about the jobs they were designed to do, once we start looking into old designs we find they were often far more practical than we would now ever imagine.


Th were also used to obscure the true position of the head making it harder for sharpshooters to effectively get head shots.
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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2015, 04:15:08 am »


More Ned Kelly armor, if the server allows us to see it. Why isn't this guy better known? I'd like to have this armor in GI Joe scale.
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Sorontar
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2015, 09:55:07 am »


More Ned Kelly armor, if the server allows us to see it. Why isn't this guy better known? I'd like to have this armor in GI Joe scale.

He's very well known... in the Antipodes. Aussies like the underdog, the battler. Remember that even Australia's favourite folksong/poem, Waltzing Matilda, is about a sheep thief.

Ned was an underdog, fighting the system, because the system fought him. He just had original thoughts about how to survive and developed the armour. Part of the original armour is in a museum in Melbourne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/canadagood/3067540728/ http://museumvictoria.com.au/discoverycentre/infosheets/the-kelly-gang/).

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jonb
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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2015, 04:50:28 pm »

And several films- so I would have thought he would have been generally known

Ned Kelly Trailer


And there was the Mick jagger film of 1970
With this song
Waylon Jennings sings of outlaw Ned Kelly's Gang Rare song


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Major Wolfram Quicksilver
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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2015, 07:22:50 pm »

I've been asked to pop a couple of videos on here of things I've made, which were my version on what armour might have been like in alternate Victorian times:

Steampunk Adventurer's Armoured Waistcoat



Steampunk body armour
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« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2015, 07:34:15 pm »

Here is why armor was obsolete in the era of guns and canons:

Article:
http://www.nam.ac.uk/waterloo200/200-object/antoine-fauveau-cuirass/
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jonb
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« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2015, 07:57:05 pm »

Mr quicksilver those are nice.
Mr JRBowman a stone from a catapult would have much the same effect, or even the arrow from a Bowman can pierce armour like at the battle of Agincourt.

Armour becomes too heavy to stop every possible hit, but is worn to lessen the impact of distant or less well aimed blows.
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Steampunk Away
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« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2015, 06:58:00 pm »

I've been asked to pop a couple of videos on here of things I've made, which were my version on what armour might have been like in alternate Victorian times:

Steampunk Adventurer's Armoured Waistcoat


Steampunk body armour


Very nice Mister Quicksilver! Have you every considered maybe taking thin sheet metal and placing it over the foam, or in niches in the foam? Love the burners you have on there!
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RJBowman
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« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2015, 02:02:29 am »

One of my favorites:


Siberian Bear Hunting Armor. It won't protect you from gunfire, but it will keep a wild beast at bay.
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Steampunk Away
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« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2015, 03:59:30 am »

It would be interesting to make it sturdier and than make it into a human weapon by charging the enemies. There is a Sci-fi comic book that illustrates this with a race of aliens. Said comic is called Anomaly.
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Astalo
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« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2015, 12:15:22 am »

Also one Forgotten Realms character have armor full of spikes and blades. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Thibbledorf_Pwent
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hardlec
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« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2015, 01:59:15 pm »

Armor's use has waxed and waned over the Victorians era.  Its use depends on many things.

A Gentleman or Lady might have wardrobe parts for protecting against attacks from thugs armed with a cudgel or a Sap. Certian garments do this. A Stick often works better.
A watch chain can protect a man from a knife slash, but not well.  Cumberbunds are pretty tough but will only stop one slash. 

Sometimes, one is enough.

A steampunk outfit may include items for protection that are decorative or items that are decorative that can protect.  A hat that will keep off the rain or stop one cudgel stroke, a vest with rows of buttons that will deflect a knife slash, a cravat that will delay the effect of a garrot. 

There are no rules in Steampunk. There are no rules in a street fight.  A Lady or Gentleman knows the best armor from real combat is preparedness.  As for good looks, maile can be very decorative and protective.

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« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2015, 02:32:25 pm »


Ah the sten gun, the three shilling and 6 pence machine gun, less reliable than 'Microsoft Windows Millennium (2000), less accurate than an RAF night bomb run of 1941, less range than a paper dart, it could not even be used as a club. The sten gun was usually given to the trooper that was likely to be shot well before he came in contact with the enemy, you know the mad and or truly hopeless. My father was equipped with one.


Off-topic and post-1901, but the Sten is often unfairly maligned. Most modern tests are using worn out examples of an originally semi-disposable design or ancient anecdote. I had the opportunity to use a near-mint ex-SOE cache MkII example a few years ago and it was as effective and reliable as any equivalent smg.

Back to armour: The First Great Unpleasantness, and the mechanisation of firepower being exchanged by equivalent European armies rather than colonial skirmishes brought plate armour back for MG crews and later specialist assault troops.


The rise of the political bomber and the infernal-device also brought about the first of the 'bomb-suits'. There were Anarchists, Bolsheviks, Fenians and Suffragettes all exploiting Mr Nobel's chemistry to make their various points.

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« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2015, 12:46:41 am »

One of my favorites:


Siberian Bear Hunting Armor. It won't protect you from gunfire, but it will keep a wild beast at bay.


If anything calls out for a sash reading "Free Hugs," it's that suit.
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