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Author Topic: What About The Celts ? : A Steampunk Viking Sequel  (Read 2547 times)
jonb
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« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2015, 02:46:34 pm »

What I think we are doing here is analyzing, what would be the consequences if. . . Now that is going to set any academically trained Historian's teeth on edge, because in some ways it can be seen to confuse the facts of what actually happened. Added to that when talking about race and culture there is a long history of inequality that comes with it, so when it is mentioned many think that its mere mention denotes concepts of superiority. I personally hate that concept but rather find the interaction of cultures mixing a fascinating subject, so I come at these things from quite a different place to what maybe imagined when the word 'race' or culture is usually mentioned.
Given the above I think I can understand Mr Rory B's reticence in getting involved in this or similar threads, but I would like to propose this as a thought, the difference with what we are playing with here to Academic History, is like the difference between pure and applied Physics and as applied physics only benefits from input from the other discipline, we would benefit from your pot of knowledge.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 02:48:42 pm by jonb » Logged
Rory B Esq BSc
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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2015, 08:08:16 pm »

My reticence is because it can create rather heated politicized divisions which aren't good (I've seen the results when I lived in Northern Ireland).

I believe I've stated earlier that the steam engine as we know it was developed by Celts involved with the Cornish / Kernow tin mines. So perhaps without the influence of Celts there could be no Steampunk?

Like the Blacks in Africa the Celts are still around and creating things although it's taking me a long time to work out all the interlacing of tentacles as 'knotwork' to create a 'Celtic Kraken' brooch design, getting interrupted by phone calls from my manager asking if I can do an extra shift doesn't help.
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Vagabond GentleMan
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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2015, 08:43:54 pm »

In Chicar's first post on this thread, he mentioned that this thread was inspired partly by a slightly older thread on Viking Steampunk.

Somehow this thread has gone haywire because of semantics; we're not using the same definitions for terms.

When someone says: "Viking", virtually no-one imagines an individual from a time period outside of the Dark Ages.  We don't start talking about Scandinavians or Scandinavian culture, because we're all in colloquial agreement that we're speaking of a certain type of person in a certain time period, even with a certain occupation.

My assumption is (and Chicar, correct me if I'm wrong) that when Chicar used the word "Celtic" in the original post, he was using the word to describe a 'barbaric' (in the Conan-the-barbarian Howardian way) culture of the distant past.  Vercingetorix in a scythe chariot fighting Romans, druids in groves practicing ancient steam-magics, that sort of thing.

"Celtic" as a word can and is used to describe many contemporary peoples, but that isn't the way Chicar was using the word, and isn't the direction he hoped this thread to go.

Steampunk Viking= aerial longships and tesla-warhammers thread lead to Steampunk Celt= clockwork chariots and bardic sonic screwdrivers thread.

Using the broader definition of the word "Celt" (which again, is a perfectly acceptable definition) is making this thread slogged-down and confused.

I suppose it doesn't really matter...but this thread would be a great deal more streamlined and cohesive if we all agreed upon what exactly we were speaking about.

 
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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2015, 09:06:07 pm »

In Chicar's first post on this thread, he mentioned that this thread was inspired partly by a slightly older thread on Viking Steampunk.

Somehow this thread has gone haywire because of semantics; we're not using the same definitions for terms.

When someone says: "Viking", virtually no-one imagines an individual from a time period outside of the Dark Ages.  We don't start talking about Scandinavians or Scandinavian culture, because we're all in colloquial agreement that we're speaking of a certain type of person in a certain time period, even with a certain occupation.

My assumption is (and Chicar, correct me if I'm wrong) that when Chicar used the word "Celtic" in the original post, he was using the word to describe a 'barbaric' (in the Conan-the-barbarian Howardian way) culture of the distant past.  Vercingetorix in a scythe chariot fighting Romans, druids in groves practicing ancient steam-magics, that sort of thing.

"Celtic" as a word can and is used to describe many contemporary peoples, but that isn't the way Chicar was using the word, and isn't the direction he hoped this thread to go.

Steampunk Viking= aerial longships and tesla-warhammers thread lead to Steampunk Celt= clockwork chariots and bardic sonic screwdrivers thread.

Using the broader definition of the word "Celt" (which again, is a perfectly acceptable definition) is making this thread slogged-down and confused.

I suppose it doesn't really matter...but this thread would be a great deal more streamlined and cohesive if we all agreed upon what exactly we were speaking about.

 

 That conundrum could be worthy of its own thread with its own poll.

 I for one am enjoying this thread with its lively debate on what construes a Celt or Celtic influence.

 Personally  for me  I  immediately think of  towers,  maidens with long hair , horseman in the distance  and celtic knot designs , book of Kells , giants, wild boar, abbeys,   gothic cemeteries , monks   and other such romanticised notions.

 All of which would likely have any real Celtic warrior or farmer  of the past turning in his grave....
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Vagabond GentleMan
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« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2015, 09:49:15 pm »

Right, Hurricane? Smiley

Perhaps if we could at least loosely agree to speak about "Ancient Celts" as the original post implied we could keep the thread on the intended path?

Though, tangentially, I'm interested a bit in how we regionally and nationally understand the word "Celt" in context.  I would be flabbergasted if many Americans (outside of maybe Boston, I guess?) would think about Welsh miners when they heard the word "Celt"...I certainly imagine the ancient people almost exclusively.  The same way that when I hear "Viking" I think of a warrior-dude on a dragonship rather than Bjork or Abba.

Ragnar Lothbrog is a Viking, Bjork is Icelandic.
Boadicea is a Celt, Welsh miners are...well, Welsh.

This is absolutely a connotative difference, there isn't a "right" way to use the word "Celt", and sure, Welsh miners are Celts. >shrugs<
But if you were at an American dinner-party and started speaking about Celtic miners, everyone will immediately assume you're speaking about Iron-Age fellers in torques and plaid...I'm assuming that's NOT the colloquial understanding of the word elsewhere?  My curiosity is now piqued...
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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2015, 11:11:59 pm »



  Being from the furthest  flung Antipodean  out post of the British Colonies our views  of Celtic culture  and  peoples  are coloured  by generational  tales  and influences of  our ancestral origins .  Until the last few decades  nearly all  New Zealanders were of  predominantly  Irish and Scots descent.  Despite being  claimed and colonised by the English,  the majority of immigrants were  escaping English tyranny, whether directly from the Celtic countries or  a generation  lost in the diaspora of  Georgian and Victorian rookeries. Agricultural labourers  did arrive from Wales and  southern England in immigration schemes. Soldiers  and traders brought their mixed race  wives and children from their previous  Empire postings  in India, Africa and Malay. Missionaries  were English as were the government  and crown representatives.   There were other  smaller groups from England , Norway , Denmark, Germany , Italy Dalmatia etc...

  Celtic was the predominantly spoken language here in the mid 1800s, our slang is still peppered with it. Tartan was everywhere and still is. Bagpipes are still played at many community events and parades.  St Patrick's  day  is popular makes the news.  Place names  are replicated from the old countries. Rebel heroes are still worshiped.  The Irish troubles and Scottish clearings are still personal  hurts. Our superstitions and habits are ancient Celtic  hold overs .

 Small towns in New Zealand are  modeled on the bucolic charm of  the Irish countryside. The pub scene is of the Irish theme.  Celtic design , in some ways very similar to Maori forms,  are popular motif on jewelry, clothing , tattoo,  table ware and furnishings. Hurling competitions and the local highland games make the news. Lord of the Rings was made here   by Kiwi technicians and artists.

 So what  does Celtic mean here. Childhood fairy tales & legends, religious iconography,  family history,  family heirlooms, Grandma's wall paper and knic knaks, food, pass times, the local pub, whiskey , beer , a drive in the country side,  rituals, superstitions, sayings, warnings and other eccentricities  that make New Zealand  a steampunk nation.



http://steampunkoamaru.co.nz/] [url]http://steampunkoamaru.co.nz/[/url]
http://www.steampunknz.co.nz/
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MWBailey
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« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2015, 11:52:36 pm »

"What if Brian Boru had a steam chariot?" ?
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chicar
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« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2015, 12:26:00 am »

I comfirm i was referring to pre-christian celts and than we have been victim of a infortunate misunderstanding.
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The word pagan came from paganus , who mean peasant . Its was a way to significate than christianism was the religion of the elite and paganism the one of the savage worker class.

''Trickster shows us how we trick OURSELVES. Her rampant curiosity backfires, but, then, something NEW is discovered (though usually not what She expected)! This is where creativity comes from—experiment, do something different, maybe even something forbidden, and voila! A breakthrough occurs! Ha! Ha! We are released! The world is created anew! Do something backwards, break your own traditions, the barrier breaks; destroy the world as you know it, let the new in.''
Extract of the Dreamflesh article ''Path of The Sacred Clown''
Hurricane Annie
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New Zealand New Zealand



« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2015, 04:22:33 am »

I comfirm i was referring to pre-christian celts and than we have been victim of a infortunate misunderstanding.

 That works.   Imagine the brutal weapons  that would evolve. That would be a Celt's 1st concern.
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