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Author Topic: What About The Celts ? : A Steampunk Viking Sequel  (Read 2621 times)
chicar
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« on: December 21, 2014, 04:11:18 pm »

The thread about steampunk viking make me think of a other pre-christian european civilisation: the celts.
http://www.willbeck.com/artblog/?cat=6
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=278&t=708316
https://www.google.ca/search?q=steampunk+celts&biw=1536&bih=724&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=5OSWVJDmLcKOyATMqYKgAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 04:23:04 pm by chicar » Logged

The word pagan came from paganus , who mean peasant . Its was a way to significate than christianism was the religion of the elite and paganism the one of the savage worker class.

''Trickster shows us how we trick OURSELVES. Her rampant curiosity backfires, but, then, something NEW is discovered (though usually not what She expected)! This is where creativity comes from—experiment, do something different, maybe even something forbidden, and voila! A breakthrough occurs! Ha! Ha! We are released! The world is created anew! Do something backwards, break your own traditions, the barrier breaks; destroy the world as you know it, let the new in.''
Extract of the Dreamflesh article ''Path of The Sacred Clown''
Rory B Esq BSc
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2014, 06:02:35 pm »

Some elements of Celtic culture were popular in the 1900's, (particularly Scottish) think Queen Victoria arriving at Balmoral (although there were notices along the route telling people not to fire guns etc).

'The Celts' covers a wide span of both time and location, from the Bronze age to today, from Switzerland to the west of Ireland. And the indigenous British Church / Christianity is Celtic (Book of Kells, Lindisfarne Gospels, Iona etc).

I've spent the last two weeks (when able,ie not at work) trying to work out a design for a 'Celtic Kracken' brooch. Getting the tentacles to make 'knot-work' isn't easy even for someone of Celtic ancestry.
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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2014, 07:31:46 pm »



 Ever wondered why  there is a predominance of Steampunk enthusiasts  with Celtic surnames  and heritage







 
 -or the popularity of Irish Bars
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Atterton
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2014, 09:46:52 pm »

The problem for me is that unlike the vikings, the word "celts" seems to be used as a catch-all term for a lot of different people and cultures.
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2014, 11:32:41 pm »

The major Steampunk event in Europe is the Asylum in Lin-coln...Lincoln is the Celtic name of the place, transalated it means something like dark pool (like dub - lin). People think that the celts went to the western  fringes but place names show that didn't happen.

One of  my friends who does occasional welsh language radio broardcasts for the BBC has researched place names and found that the rivers of the peak district have 'welsh' names like the 'dove' (Aberdovey mouth of the dove) etc.
Dub-lin is celtic but what about Kings Lynne or Lin-coln?

'The Celts' are not pre-Christian, there are Cornish people who would argue that Joseph of Aramathea brought his nephew here on one of his trips to buy tin they are the original Christians. Celts adopted their own brand of Christianity independent of Rome.

OH,my name 'Rory' is the celtic version of 'Adam'.
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Hurricane Annie
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2014, 11:47:54 pm »

The problem for me is that unlike the vikings, the word "celts" seems to be used as a catch-all term for a lot of different people and cultures.


 Ale swilling , thieving and fighting could include the cultural activities of  many peoples of the world

 The idea of     Celtic Steampunk   invokes a few romantic notions.  

 Ancient  Celts defending Tara from invaders


Medieval / Renaissance defending their rivers and  castles


 Beyond the Pale Catholics turned out of their homes by the  absentee landlords  & redcoats during the Clearances of the  1700 and 1800s .


 The Edwardian  / Art Nouveau  Celtic Revival , renewed  interest in all things Irish   and the restoration of abandoned and neglected country estates
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pakled
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2014, 05:58:11 pm »

I tend to think of Celts as a people who fought the Romans. They were spread all over Europe, as far as Greece, IIRC. Now, the ancients did develop one steam device (steam jets rotated a sphere), so if some bright young laddie or lassie decided to put that to work...Wink

I dunno, do steam turbines fit into Steampunk? The Dreadnaughts of the late 19th century were some of the first steam-turbine engines. They'd caught on by the Edwardian period...but that's a whole 'nother can of worms...Wink
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Rory B Esq BSc
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2014, 04:58:08 pm »

Tesla turbines?
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Rory B Esq BSc
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2014, 05:15:59 pm »

Last year I went to 'Steampunks in Space'. at Loughborough

I wore an ICA (Irish Citizens Army) badge on my 'slouch hat', The woman I was with had a Suffragette sash and a rosette with the 'votes for women' airship.

As for the contribution of Celts to Steampunk...
Don't forget that Steam power was developed for the Cornish (celtic) tin mines (before Watt), Trevithic had steam locomotives before Stephenson, and the first steam boat was made by a Scot (from Leadhills).

So in some ways there wouldn't be Steampunk without 'celts' !
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chicar
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2014, 12:41:45 am »

I tend to think of Celts as a people who fought the Romans. They were spread all over Europe, as far as Greece, IIRC. Now, the ancients did develop one steam device (steam jets rotated a sphere), so if some bright young laddie or lassie decided to put that to work...Wink

I dunno, do steam turbines fit into Steampunk? The Dreadnaughts of the late 19th century were some of the first steam-turbine engines. They'd caught on by the Edwardian period...but that's a whole 'nother can of worms...Wink


1- If it is steam, that steampunk.

2- Well, the britons were in the ''industrial fertile crescent'' the same way their britishs descendants was.
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Vagabond GentleMan
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2014, 11:50:07 pm »

It's true what's been mentioned above, the Celts seems to be a catch-all term.  The range of people described as "Celtic" is far larger than what has been mentioned above.  At least as far East as Turkey, and there are even a number of naturally mummified corpses of red-haired, torque-wearing, checkered-clothes-wearing folk that have been discovered in Western China, though there is debate as to whether these folk can be considered "genuinely" Celtic.

The word "Celt" has Grecian origins; none of the people described as Celtic called themselves Celts, and whether the people we call Celts were a unified culture is hotly debatable; generally amongst historians and anthropologists it is assumed they were not.

Using the word "Celtic" is kind of like using the term "Native American" or "American Indian" as if all of the indigenous Americans practiced the same religion, practiced the same subsistence methods, had the same gender-roles, spoke the same language, etc. when they certainly did not.

But we can certainly use the word colloquially, thus assuming that Celts were tattooed, headhunting, cattle-raising, plaid-wearing, torque-bejeweled, charioteering folk; their women could be warriors, they had druids and bards, limed their hair for battle, painted with woad, they had all that pretty interlocking swirly Book-of-Kells art, wrote in Ogham, etc. >shrugs<
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2014, 03:28:10 am »

It's true what's been mentioned above, the Celts seems to be a catch-all term.  The range of people described as "Celtic" is far larger than what has been mentioned above.  At least as far East as Turkey, and there are even a number of naturally mummified corpses of red-haired, torque-wearing, checkered-clothes-wearing folk that have been discovered in Western China, though there is debate as to whether these folk can be considered "genuinely" Celtic.

The word "Celt" has Grecian origins; none of the people described as Celtic called themselves Celts, and whether the people we call Celts were a unified culture is hotly debatable; generally amongst historians and anthropologists it is assumed they were not.

Using the word "Celtic" is kind of like using the term "Native American" or "American Indian" as if all of the indigenous Americans practiced the same religion, practiced the same subsistence methods, had the same gender-roles, spoke the same language, etc. when they certainly did not.

But we can certainly use the word colloquially, thus assuming that Celts were tattooed, headhunting, cattle-raising, plaid-wearing, torque-bejeweled, charioteering folk; their women could be warriors, they had druids and bards, limed their hair for battle, painted with woad, they had all that pretty interlocking swirly Book-of-Kells art, wrote in Ogham, etc. >shrugs<

 - Or as my dad  described his ancestors - Glorified Cattle Rustlers -
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Prof Marvel
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2014, 05:29:39 am »

So.... What  About The Celts ?

Bagpipes?   check
Kilt?           check
Tatts ?        check
Leather?     check
Flame?  .... um.. check

Steampunk?  .......   I leave it for you to decide





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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2014, 09:26:57 pm »

Depends which definition of 'Celts' you use: linguistic those with a gaelic language (Breton, Irish, Manx, Cornish, Scots, Welsh), historical (based on references from Greece and Rome) anthropological (common cultural factors Bards, druids etc or DNA) , archaeological (the use of the 'Celt' form of axe) or mythical?

I watched 'Zulu' a few days ago...South Wales Borderers defending an outpost of Victoria's Empire.
Is that Celts in steampunk? they were from an area in the 'Celtic fringe' of Europe and combined the Celtic cultural traditions of both 'the hero warrior' (winning VC's) and Bards (singing). But there they were in their scarlet tunics and white helmets holding an outpost for Queen Victoria (quite Steampunk).
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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2014, 12:01:23 am »

Surely pretty much everything can be Steampunk, it's all just a matter of execution.

Rather than posing all manner of 'Is X Steampunk?' and the stream of thoroughly reasonable 'Well it could be' answers surely it'd be much better to work out and create examples of how a thing is steampunk and (if wished) developing the idea out from there.

To give my opinion on the original thread query though the celts are no more or less inherently Steampunk than any of their contemporary civilization or for that matter any real civilization, fashion or trend (though it's probably safe enough to give Vicwargian stuff a bit of a headstart) and like all those other things can be made Steampunk with a little thought, time and imagination.

The fun is in seeing someone take a thing/culture/fashion and making an artifact/artwork/story out of it, be it Steampunk Picts, Gauls, Swedish Minimalism or contemporary issues.
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Vagabond GentleMan
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« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2014, 02:20:19 am »

I'll sorta split some hairs here, as it has come up on a number of threads lately.

Though there are more guidelines than rules in the strict sense regarding this sort of semantic thing, for convenience we as a community have been seemingly developing sort of jargon terms to keep our various ducks in their rows.  Generally Steampunk is applied to that which is Vicwardian, and we generally accept that Dieselpunk is all of the "Steampunk" aesthetic stuff applied to post-Edwardian eras up to like WW2 or so.  Clockpunk is same but in the reverse chronological direction, being Renaissance up to Victorian.  There are other more specific terms for other eras, but it begins to get cluttered up fairly quickly, especially with every other Steamy enthusiast playing a single chord differently in the melody and claiming it's a new genre...but I just can't help but think that Steampunk is necessarily Vicwardian, and everything else is "kinda Steampunky" or "Steampunk-style" without being Steampunk proper.

Again, I'm probably splitting hairs.  Especially cuz timetravel, so yeah.
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jonb
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« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2014, 04:04:58 am »

Problem is there are no hard edges, everything tends to merge. Who are the Celts well it would be everybody in western Europe slightly away from the med if we listened to the Ancient Greeks. And if we look at the archaeology at that time we find apart from small regional differences that view very much holds up.
There is a strong school of thought that Julius Caesar invented the division of German and Celt because it was important politically that he could show he had conquered a whole nation rather than just half a people.
Dna shows the average indigenous English person has more in common with a Basque from Spain than anybody from Northern Europe, so the stories of Welsh being original and English being Foreign to Britain is very questionable.
We have been taught in schools for a long time to think in terms of distinct periods of history, but these categories are only shorthand. Think of Elizabethan England and we might think of Shakespeare, or Walter Raleigh, but both these men were alive in the time of the Stuarts.
Oscar Wilde said
“The gods bestowed on Max the gift of perpetual old age.”
The Max was Sir Henry Maximilian "Max" Beerbohm who was a good friend also of Kenneth Tynan who was the first man to say f&%k on British TV, and produced the Nude Hippy Musical Hair.
People don't fit into hard and fast boxes. My ancestry is Celtic so I am Celtic as well, as were the Victorians like my grandfather.
As a boy I met a man, who as a boy met a man, who as a boy met a man, who as a boy met a man who was in the Battle of Waterloo. 1815
4 men 200 years.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 04:12:00 am by jonb » Logged
chicar
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Chicar556
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« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2014, 03:37:17 pm »

Hum,this post push me to increase my knowledge about the celt as a ethnic group in a unexpected way. it actually have some alternate history potential. imagine than Galatia still existed in the 19 century ? It would certainly be a interesting sight in the middle oriental scene.

So let me correct my question: What about the celts as a ethnic group ? What about Hibernia, Brittania, Caledonia, Gaul, Iberia, Belgium, Galatia, Etc and their descendants.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 03:40:37 pm by chicar » Logged
jonb
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« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2014, 06:08:55 pm »

There is a view coming to the fore which I have heard being now uncovered by Cardiff University (I think), about Celtic culture that as far as I know fits with the view I have been banging on about for a long time, but I only heard about it on the radio and so have no links. So this is my personal view, as it is too complex for me to back all of it up.
The Celtic culture was a trading culture which expanded eastwards, connecting up many peoples who over time took up a common trading language, which pushed the older European languages into an ark of Finnish, Hungarian, and Basque to the edges and inaccessible regions of Celtic influence.
They set up the druids to be impartial arbitrators in disputes to facilitate this free market.
The Celts like most Ancient peoples were not interested in race but thought the ground on which a person was born was of a greater importance.
I have loads more to say, but if interested watch this-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKGVqXznpNU
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 06:10:31 pm by jonb » Logged
henrietta Devereux
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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2014, 06:57:19 pm »

I agree Celts is too broad a term to pin down to a particular time or place, Maybe it is easier to draw a map of the British Isles and Europe and cross out the bits where there be no Celtic heritage.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 01:43:59 am by henrietta Devereux » Logged
Rory B Esq BSc
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« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2014, 04:30:40 pm »

One question no one has yet dared ask is....'does it matter'?

One of the joy's of Steampunk for me is that it cuts across barriers imposed between people, Would anyone ask...can Blacks be Steampunk?
A week ago the Norfolk Steampunks had a little meet up, A 'Green', an Anarchist and a couple of Police in a pub discussing such issues as whether goggles should be brass or chrome and who's round is it?

Only in Steampunk would a policeman invite someone wearing the badge of a 19th century revolutionary group (and not for purely cosmetic reasons) to his wedding and the invitation be accepted.
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Atterton
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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2014, 07:32:59 pm »

I dare say you've misunderstood the question. It wasn't "Should celts be allowed to be steampunk?".

Rather it's about wether the group of people called celts, have the potential for a steampunk setting. To me it seems we know too little of anything resembling technology or scientific worldview of theirs that we can extrapolate on.
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Vagabond GentleMan
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2014, 08:06:14 pm »

Yeah, sort of that.

As I mentioned briefly earlier, I think this thread would better serve the original purpose (which I take it as being more of a daydreaming-brainstorming communal project, no?) if we assumed a colloquial or fantasy-based understanding of the word "Celt".

So we have some sort of clockpunk-"celtic" world with steam-powered aerial scythe chariots and wavy-bladed rocket-spears, exploding torques for ease of head-taking (in the same way some East-coast American Indian nations wore mohawks and scalplocks such that noble foes might more easily take your scalp once defeated), waxed, plaited, gold-adorned Hulk-Hogan moustaches, clockwork wind-up robot bards, etc. 

Actually, some of this stuff was sort of touched-upon by that second Hellboy flick, no?
Where this guy:


lives in the same world as these gearwork guys:


and this sort of steamy goggles contraption (which if I remember correctly, and might not  Tongue are goggles that allow you to see the Fair Folk:

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Rory B Esq BSc
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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2015, 06:40:23 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBM0JBrOwo

OK about 10 years after the Stempunk time but I've worn an Irish Citizen Army badge at Steampunk events without problems.

No blue paint or bagpipes, but a few images of Celts from around 1900-1920.

The 'Hunley' was a submarine funded by Irish rebels, so there is plenty of historical precedent for Celts in Steampunk. Just as there is for women with the Suffragette airship.

It seems someone is obsessed with 'racial origins', I'm glad most people here aren't.
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Atterton
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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2015, 08:20:59 pm »

No, it again seems you've misunderstood the question.
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