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Author Topic: what do YOU call the non steampunkers?  (Read 1695 times)
Vagabond GentleMan
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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2014, 12:34:20 am »

Ah, the double-edged sword PC PR.

Labels are important.  The School of Biology, as a metaphor, is about labeling everything down to minutia such that we can understand Life better.

Labels don't necessarily mean judgement.  It is easy to USE labels for judgement, but they aren't parallel unless used thusly.

Imagining that one doesn't differentiate between one's black friends and white friends or gay friends and straight ones DENIES black friends the understanding that their lives and treatment by the culture and the world has been fundamentally different than that of white friends.  Same with gay friends and straight friends.  Maybe in a utopian egalitarian future this won't be the case, but it is right now, and empathizing with the appropriate conditions that have birthed the labels can be fundamental to inter-human connection as well as overcoming those labels.

Labels without judgement is (or should be) about Identity, and Identity is crucial.

Labels also function as social filter AND lubricant.  No matter how progressive and loving we imagine ourselves to be, none of us are socially compatible with EVERYBODY.  Labels work to identify common interests, hobbies, perception, paradigm, belief...well, yeah, those things which pertain to identity.
If you label yourself a Steampunk, you've given me the "conversation currency" to immediately bond through potential common interests.  We instantly have any number of things to talk about, laugh about, bond over, etc. whilst skipping over a great number of things that wouldn't benefit either of us or at least make the 'getting to know you' process sluggish and labored.
Conversely, if you label yourself, I dunno, a Neo Nazi or something, I can safely say I don't have enough in common with you to pursue any sort of further social interaction.

To some degree self-expression through presentation of self serves as a visual language that allows for some degree of Label Identification.  I'm probably not gonna need you to label yourself a Neo Nazi if you have a Nazi Swastika tattooed on your forehead.  I can be fairly certain, though, that you are a 'them' rather than an 'us'.
Yes there's a fine line between judging-a-book-by-its-cover and accurately identifying visual cues, but we can be smart about it if we choose to.  "Us/Them" thinking can also be dangerous and misused, but just as often it's a socio-cultural necessity, e.g. don't walk into a Crips gang's HQ wearing a red bandana around your face unless you're looking for trouble, even if you're a upright law-abiding citizen.

I don't necessarily think that it's inhuman to give derogatory labels to groups one DOESN'T like.  There are evil groups out there.  And there are just groups we don't grok. It's certainly subjective, but something about the way we label others speaks of our own identities as individuals as well, for good AND bad.

I don't know about the everyone-who's-not-a-Steampunk (or a geek, or a Scadian, or whatever) gets THIS label thinking...I don't like the terms muggles or norms or mundanes or those various terms.  More because it's lazy than any other factor.  If the world is divided into 'Dog' and 'Not a Dog' than we don't really know anything about any thing that is described as 'Not a Dog', and it really doesn't help anyone.  So, is the non-Steampunk person a Suit, a Bro, a Chav, a Valley Girl, an any-number-of-something-elses? 

Re-reading this, I don't think my thoughts are cohesive...I'm kind of all over the place.  So I'll apologize and leave it be right there, I spose?

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thezombiekat
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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2014, 01:01:41 pm »

the wording is a bit scattered but i think i like the sentiment.

labels for subgroups within society are not inherently bad, they convey useful information (she is lesbian, i shouldn't try to get a date). and can be an important part of defining identity.

labels for somebody not being part of a group are not good because they tell little about the persons identity while discounting those traits which do contribute to there identity.

for example in a world with whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, middle easterners you haven't meaningful described somebody if you say "not white" and a habit of doing so leads to exclusionary thinking.
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Sludge Van Diesel
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2014, 02:03:36 pm »

I am a Steampunk.

I am not a Steampunker, nor do I go Steampunking!

Hear hear!

Real Steampunks would know there is no er on the end, so the original question is invalid.
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Vagabond GentleMan
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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2014, 06:23:11 pm »

the wording is a bit scattered but i think i like the sentiment.

labels for subgroups within society are not inherently bad, they convey useful information (she is lesbian, i shouldn't try to get a date). and can be an important part of defining identity.

labels for somebody not being part of a group are not good because they tell little about the persons identity while discounting those traits which do contribute to there identity.

for example in a world with whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, middle easterners you haven't meaningful described somebody if you say "not white" and a habit of doing so leads to exclusionary thinking.

Concise and well said!
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Mr. Syson
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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2014, 11:16:51 pm »

Non Steamers?

Having recently been called a freak by a "friend" I think it's too easy to categorise groups and be condescending. I sighed and walked away. The above seems appropriate.
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4_0_4
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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2014, 11:34:55 pm »

Bloody Ewoks the lot of them !!  Angry

BA'STARs & BLANKERS
WHeee'NGERS & BANKERS
PARVOLIN POOP & FECAL SCOOP MATTER
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Will Howard
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« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2014, 11:46:15 pm »

If they be not "steamers", be they boilers, fryers (not "friars) or roasters, mayhap?
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frances
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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2014, 12:42:53 am »

Sir or Madam,

whatever age they are.
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VampirateMace
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« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2014, 08:10:16 am »

People, name calling is rude you know. Honestly, if we're supposed to be the civilized lot, we should act like it.

frances: While good in theory, I've found ladies here do not like being called Madame, or Mame. Which is difficult if you're trying to give them instruction, and they're still gripping to their friends about how they're not a grandma. Sometimes Miz works, because they doesn't know if you called them Miss or Mrs, so they pretend they heard the one they prefer.
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frances
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« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2014, 11:45:54 pm »

Ah, it is different here.  Call someone sir or madam and they smile at you in a good-natured way.  Especially so if they are older children, it will be the first time that someone has been that polite to them.
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Vagabond GentleMan
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« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2014, 01:22:09 am »

Question:  Are we interpreting the Topic question in terms of: "What terms do you use to describe non-Steampunks?" or "How do you address a non-Steampunk on the street?"

My impression was that we were discussing the former, and frances but made a clever and welcome witticism...

Name-calling IS rude, but sometimes funny, and the proof can be found on this thread.  Patronization is rude and very rarely humorous.

I hope I'm not supposed to be part of a 'civilized lot'...barbarians in the Classical world were much more likely to be praised for being courteous.

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VampirateMace
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2014, 05:31:57 am »

I wasn't trying to patronize anyone... but rather be polite, and so I was caught off guard by the reaction 'Madame' got.

...me thinks era appropriate logic would dictate, that the only reason barbarians would be praised, is because the civilized lot is already expected to be courteous.  Wink
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2014, 05:49:49 am »

Ah, it is different here.  Call someone sir or madam and they smile at you in a good-natured way.  Especially so if they are older children, it will be the first time that someone has been that polite to them.

I once had a small "incident" while working as a cashier at a supermarket many years ago (early 1990s in my college years).  I was under the habit of answering "yes, sir" and "no, ma'am," two VERY American ways to address adults (read the Peanuts comic strip?  Ever head Charlie Brown talk to adults?).

The problem is that this lady... I'd say in her late 20s or early 30s and I was 24 years (looking more like 17).  So I asked her "Ma'am, would you like paper or plastic [bag]?."  At which point, her two eyes opened up like to the size dinner plates, and she started scolding me... "Maam?!  Maam?!  I'm not a ma'am, you little %^&*!"  I'm still young!"  Cheesy  It took a good 15 minutes to calm her down in front of the very long line of people.

Apparently, I was unaware that at the time the term only applied to old(er) people  Undecided  Then, again, I hear often how 18-23 year old girls will refer to themselves as "old"  Roll Eyes  Good grief!  Give me a break!  With that kind of attitude they should be long dead by age 40.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 06:47:03 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged

Vagabond GentleMan
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2014, 08:15:15 pm »

Apologies for my assumptions, VM...it's oftentimes difficult to "hear" Tone through the written word; I'm sure I misinterpreted.  Undecided

On the Polite Barbarian tip, my understanding is that the general assumption is that if one barbarian is rude to another, his head is cleaved open, so courtesy was important.
Civilization, on the other hand, ensures a greater degree of physical safety for the individual and that allows an individual to "get away" with a lot more in terms of insulting behavior.  It is quite apparent through their own writings that the Greeks and Romans (who wrote about how polite barbarians were) had the social leeway to be quite openly rude and cruel to each other.

It's a paradox, to be sure...but to some degree and from a certain standpoint, Civilization=rudeness and Savagery=politeness.

It's microcosmic as well as macroscosmic as well...you're polite to the King, who is supposed to be the paragon of the civilized State, because he's the most likely to execute you.  You're less likely to show the same courtesy to the beggar-man because he poses the least threat.
An individual guided by human nature and honed by civilized culture isn't so great in terms of politeness.  An individual who's polite to everyone is a very special creature, guided I think mostly by empathy and personal code rather than civilized vs. barbaric culturalization...

Tangent:  You know this very debate went on at length through letters between Robert E Howard (Conan the Barbarian, Solomon Kane, Kull the Conqueror) and H P Lovecraft (Cthulhu and yeah, all that stuff)?  I'm Howardian in this discussion, I suppose.  Smiley
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VampirateMace
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2014, 09:01:49 pm »

Fair point - and that comes back to the anthological view of witches too; as where the whole purpose of witches is that everyone will treat each other nicely, just incase their neighbor is a witch. Though, I would like to point out that since tribal laws and leaders do exist (just because the punishments aren't written down somewhere does not mean they don't), there is still individual safety, though yes, it may be to quite lesser degree.

Of course, it naturally rolls around to what one thinks polite actually is; Having spent much of my life in a very redneck town, I've never thought much of spitting (though I know it's considered rude to many, to the point where there's cities where it can get arrested) and one afternoon, I was talking with 3 guys my age, and we all came to agreement on something, and 3 of us turned and spat, then we all looked at the guy that didn't, and his reply was, 'Sorry, but I don't spit in front of ladies (meaning me). I was taught to be polite.'
- My point being, in this instance, spitting was actually the polite option. And could sometimes, our interpretation of polite be skewed so that we don't see it where it is, or also see it where it isn't?

Tangent: I would hope I'm not actually being viewed as a Lovecraft here. As much as I can appreciate his literary contributions, the man was as racist as they come, to the point where he was extremely embarrassed about it near the end of his life.
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Antonus Fudge
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« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2014, 09:48:23 pm »

I must confess I did once rather loudly address an impertinent scruff as "you young pup!" as he scampered off with my companion's umberelle. I gave chase but am sad to say he was not apprehended. I should say he was not a steampunker nor any other manner or contrivance of punker or enthusiast or aficionado; rather he had the piteous look of an impoverished street urchin about him. Nevertheless we repaired to a tea rooms, my companion and I, and the incident was quite forgotten, though I did make a considerable donation to the orphanage in the hopes that they might pick him up, & make something of the sorry boy.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 09:56:58 pm by Antonus Fudge » Logged

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Rory B Esq BSc
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« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2014, 10:11:06 pm »

Good 'customer service skills' dictate that you should smile politely and use courteous language....then once out of earshot of them and other customers be creative with your description.

Phrases such as 'jibbertyfibbert' instead of 'chav girl' allow you to say things they will never understand.


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VampirateMace
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« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2014, 02:56:36 am »

Pro tip: Make sure you are actually out of earshot.
- I have really good hearing, and had overheard some of those 'private' conversations.
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jonb
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« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2014, 04:51:35 pm »

A person in non -steampunk clothing?

in-cog-not-o
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Aubreay Fallowfield
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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2014, 09:32:52 am »

The thought of what one calls non steampunk is indeed supposed to be "what one calls non steampunks when out of earshot and with a fellow steampunk". In no way do I suggest being rude TO anyone. In fact in the past when faced with rudenes about our attire I found, as I do in most situations, that politeness disarms those being rude.

In public one should treat and speak to others how one would wish to be treated and spoken to.
In private...... claws are out;)
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