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Author Topic: Samurai Steampunk  (Read 3277 times)
Daisuke_sanada
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« on: November 26, 2013, 05:16:14 pm »

I recently started writing a story set in Edo period Japan, but I thought it may be interesting to put a Steampunk twist to it, like the anime of seven samurai. Now I have had a fascination with steam punk for some time and have read a few books but to that I still consider myself quite new to the whole idea. I ask for some terms for parts and equipment, terms for creators and any ideas how i might be able to spice up this story to make it the Steampunk style of Japan that I'm hoping to have it as.
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2013, 06:42:28 pm »

Dunno about streampunk but Tom Cruse's Last samurai is a great source of inspiration.
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2013, 07:03:14 pm »

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... very novel concept... the katanas should have wooden handles with steampunk designs and brassy inlays and pipes and stuff.
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2013, 07:13:57 pm »

I wonder if there should be a tentative transition from Clockwork to Steampunk as you transition from the Maiji Period from the Edo period.  

The reason being that the Meiji Period was when the technological revolution came in, and Japan opened up and the technology came in very fast from English speaking countries.  To have Steampunk in the Edo period requires some adjustments, not that it can't be done.  Perhaps more contact with Dutch and other European clock makers?

Some ideas not from the Edo period but from the Meiji period, and of course the Steampunk in Japan thread (although I warn you we only have one Japanese member besides you - actually a couple from the band "Strange Artifact"  - I need to pull more people in to participate from the Tokyo Steampunk Society / TIS !!!)

http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,38619.0.html

BTW: Arigatou.  Thank you for your participation!

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« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 07:18:23 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged

Atterton
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2013, 09:44:49 pm »

Wouldn't you rather have something that relates to the plot, rather than the literary equivalent of gluing a cogwheel on? That being said, those japanese tea dolls could perhaps be used for something. A larger version with some modifications dressed in samurai armour. They will have quite a limited number of motions, so an army of mechanical samurais are probably out. However it might be useful, if what looked like an empty samurai armour could suddenly spring to life and kill whoever stood in front of it. I could also imagine some kind of tank, a wagon covered in samurai style armour.
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2013, 09:54:17 pm »

Wouldn't you rather have something that relates to the plot, rather than the literary equivalent of gluing a cogwheel on? That being said, those japanese tea dolls could perhaps be used for something. A larger version with some modifications dressed in samurai armour. They will have quite a limited number of motions, so an army of mechanical samurais are probably out. However it might be useful, if what looked like an empty samurai armour could suddenly spring to life and kill whoever stood in front of it. I could also imagine some kind of tank, a wagon covered in samurai style armour.

I think that is why I mentioned the historical background.  Maybe it's a huge crutch that I rely on, but there is nothing better than reality to bring realism into the story.  Naturally, history can provide you with a suitable plot line, and you can fictionalise it as much as you want, disjointing the timeline and pushing toward the past or future that way.

The aesthetics are only the consequence of the plot line.  The decor needs to match the story.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 09:33:18 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged
Daisuke_sanada
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 04:59:09 pm »

with historical correctness i been trying to get the time of the battle i'm writing correct and names of generals and such. Umm for style so far i have a heavy armor suit that's steamed powered with cog and piston joint supports and copper fiber muscle strands that assists the individual in the suit to move with some speed and not be too lumbering, and i have a set of swords i'm calling "wave form katanas" that have a crude electrical set up in the handle that feeds electric current to a small device along the blade known as a "harmonic transduser" that vibrates the metal giving it extra strength to hold up against heavier foes...have ideas of updated araqubes and going a little into sci fi maybe larger automatons, but want to get more into it with armor weapons and the like...
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George Salt
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 08:39:56 pm »

You may not want to have a look at Stormdancer by Jay Kristoff.  It's the first novel in the Lotus War series and combines steampunk with feudal Japan.  I picked it up when it was the Kindle daily deal.  I'll get the second if it eventually reduces in price.  It's similar to what you're describing - which is why I suggest you try and avoid it Wink
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 09:47:49 pm »

with historical correctness i been trying to get the time of the battle i'm writing correct and names of generals and such. Umm for style so far i have a heavy armor suit that's steamed powered with cog and piston joint supports and copper fiber muscle strands that assists the individual in the suit to move with some speed and not be too lumbering, and i have a set of swords i'm calling "wave form katanas" that have a crude electrical set up in the handle that feeds electric current to a small device along the blade known as a "harmonic transduser" that vibrates the metal giving it extra strength to hold up against heavier foes...have ideas of updated araqubes and going a little into sci fi maybe larger automatons, but want to get more into it with armor weapons and the like...


A blade with a harmonic transducer?  Perhaps based on older swordsmithing knowledge passed from time immemorial. Giving weight to folklore such as the "singing sword" featured in the 1937 comic Prince Valiant.

Perhaps 19th. C craftsmen and engineers re-discover the technique , understanding how a resonating blade is able to cut through the opponents' blade and armour.  A technique that like true Damascus steel was thought to have disappeared in the sands of time, but now forged with the steel-folding technique of katana swordsmithing.

As far as introducing a technical aspect to the history, there is a lot of technical work that can be introduced here for discussions in metallurgy.  Look at a book with engineer material properties, such as VanBlack's Elements of Material Scince and Engineering http://www.flipkart.com/elements-material-science-engineering-6/p/itmdytssextkxzpy
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2013, 10:05:59 pm »

with historical correctness i been trying to get the time of the battle i'm writing correct and names of generals and such. Umm for style so far i have a heavy armor suit that's steamed powered with cog and piston joint supports and copper fiber muscle strands that assists the individual in the suit to move with some speed and not be too lumbering, and i have a set of swords i'm calling "wave form katanas" that have a crude electrical set up in the handle that feeds electric current to a small device along the blade known as a "harmonic transduser" that vibrates the metal giving it extra strength to hold up against heavier foes...have ideas of updated araqubes and going a little into sci fi maybe larger automatons, but want to get more into it with armor weapons and the like...


A blade with a harmonic transducer?  Perhaps based on older swordsmithing knowledge passed from time immemorial. Giving weight to folklore such as the "singing sword" featured in the 1937 comic Prince Valiant.

Perhaps 19th. C craftsmen and engineers re-discover the technique , understanding how a resonating blade is able to cut through the opponents' blade and armour.  A technique that like true Damascus steel was thought to have disappeared in the sands of time, but now forged with the steel-folding technique of katana swordsmithing.

As far as introducing a technical aspect to the history, there is a lot of technical work that can be introduced here for discussions in metallurgy.  Look at a book with engineer material properties, such as VanBlack's Elements of Material Scince and Engineering http://www.flipkart.com/elements-material-science-engineering-6/p/itmdytssextkxzpy


If you are interested in Sword smithying looking up the DVD "Reclaiming the blade" It is quite interesting and has a good bit on Katana's and there are several sections of it on youtube.
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Daisuke_sanada
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2013, 12:50:32 am »

I think I can avoid something like storm dancer cause right now my story is more focusing on the battle of sekigahara, but twisting it a bit. Now the one thing I guess i'm kinda hesitant on is putting in what I want to call "the god machines" monolithic automatons that it seems they walk through the clouds themselves. I got the idea from the Titan's in the warhammer 40K series but instead of giant plasma guns and missles that decimate cities i'm thinking more like giant blades or possibly flame cannon. cause i'm more hoping to keep it to a ground battle but just the idea of giant machines most the common men would think as if the gods themselves stepped out onto the field of battle to join in... I like the idea though of almost forgotten or i would think secret forging techniques with the blades what would work though for "speed" style units like scouts or more light armored soldiers. kinda stuck on how to give them a extra "boost" in speed you can say. Though on a side not I want to say thanks for all the legit input really appreciating all the suggestions that everyone has been throwing in
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akumabito
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2013, 11:13:07 pm »

I don't think giant robots would fit the historical context very well. For about 250 years, the Sakoku isolationist policies were in effect, severely limiting international trade. To this day, Japan relies heavily on imported ores for their metal. Back in the 19th century it would simply be impossible to build large metal structures. The Japanese weren't quick to embrace steam power either..
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Daisuke_sanada
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2013, 08:21:48 am »

I don't think giant robots would fit the historical context very well. For about 250 years, the Sakoku isolationist policies were in effect, severely limiting international trade. To this day, Japan relies heavily on imported ores for their metal. Back in the 19th century it would simply be impossible to build large metal structures. The Japanese weren't quick to embrace steam power either..

Quite true though I guess that's the thing I like about this style of story writing is I can tweak history a bit to fit the parameters. As far as historical accuracy I'm more worried about place, time, generals, and most of the back story on the break down of the Toyotomi and what led to sekigahara, HOW the battle goes though...well I'm relying more on imagination on that one more then anything... Grin
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2013, 12:11:27 pm »

I don't think giant robots would fit the historical context very well. For about 250 years, the Sakoku isolationist policies were in effect, severely limiting international trade. To this day, Japan relies heavily on imported ores for their metal. Back in the 19th century it would simply be impossible to build large metal structures. The Japanese weren't quick to embrace steam power either..

In the DVD I pointed out. The old way of making a proper Katana's are still used. No powered machine, just manpower and elbow grease!

Its quite interesting that a massive lump of metal is produced but they only use the outer edges with a high carbon deposit.
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George Salt
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2013, 01:02:59 pm »

I don't think giant robots would fit the historical context very well. For about 250 years, the Sakoku isolationist policies were in effect, severely limiting international trade. To this day, Japan relies heavily on imported ores for their metal. Back in the 19th century it would simply be impossible to build large metal structures. The Japanese weren't quick to embrace steam power either..

You assume that robots mean big metal structures, it's an easy assumption to fall into because most of us have a Western outlook and we're used to a plentiful supply of iron and steel.

The scenario being discussed might encourage the use of alternative materials, such as laminated paper/wood, bamboo, etc. with metal carefully restricted to only those components that need it.  The tactical use of a limited number of this type of warrior machine on the battlefield would be interesting to consider.  Used at the correct moment they could be decisive, but would they be vulnerable to mobbing by infantry? Could they hold ground without support?
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Daisuke_sanada
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2013, 02:54:05 pm »

Ok so for what I'm calling "the god machines" right now there have only been four made in this known history of japan, one was created by Oda Nobunaga, another created by Date Masamune, the other two are lost to civilization, not know where they are... these two are the only ones and I'm thinking since the whole of sekigahara had become a brawl fest, the same thing will go for these two...to see which one is the greater creation of man
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2013, 03:44:15 pm »

Ok so for what I'm calling "the god machines" right now there have only been four made in this known history of japan, one was created by Oda Nobunaga, another created by Date Masamune, the other two are lost to civilization, not know where they are... these two are the only ones and I'm thinking since the whole of sekigahara had become a brawl fest, the same thing will go for these two...to see which one is the greater creation of man

Would one be hidden on mount fuji and another in a deep lake?
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2013, 12:16:40 am »

You could perhaps have something similar to the power lifter in Aliens, but made of bamboo. The power of it possibly being supplied by large coiled springs.
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Daisuke_sanada
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2013, 12:47:13 pm »

yeah those would have been the likely spots but both are being brought to bear. and one is more of a surprise then the other. The armors that Tadakatsu Honda is using and yshihiro shimazu, would basically be like those lifters..
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Daisuke_sanada
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 08:33:47 am »

though question how can i make a good steam canon? I want to put them in but not overpower them that they shred through most of the armies while they fight.
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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2013, 09:31:28 am »

though question how can i make a good steam canon? I want to put them in but not overpower them that they shred through most of the armies while they fight.

I steam cannon (in my own opinion) would suit the multi barrel weapons but would not be as powerful as black powder cannons. As the pressure needed to fire the shells the same distance and black powder would need to be very, very high requiring big bulky machinery.
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Daisuke_sanada
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2013, 04:06:15 pm »

actaully I was just thinking about this, that steam be added to allow for bigger shots and higher explosives to be used to fire the shots, cause normally you have what's called "low explosives" or  normal black powder that forces the projectile up through the barrell, anything of higher grade or known as "high explosive" would combust to rapidly without allowing for space to expand and basically blows out the sides of the barrell, or in our case the canon. Now here is where the steam comes in, i'm seeing a device on the side of the canon that pushes superheated steam into the canon adding preasure into the chamber which allows for higher grade explosives, due to the fact there is additional pressure would allow for higher velocity and the rate of which the projectile would exit the canon barrel would give the rapid combustion high explosives the time they need to expand forward and not expand outward putting holes in the canon. So you'd basically get almost close to a supersonic speed canon shell...
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2013, 10:43:31 pm »

actaully I was just thinking about this, that steam be added to allow for bigger shots and higher explosives to be used to fire the shots, cause normally you have what's called "low explosives" or  normal black powder that forces the projectile up through the barrell, anything of higher grade or known as "high explosive" would combust to rapidly without allowing for space to expand and basically blows out the sides of the barrell, or in our case the canon. Now here is where the steam comes in, i'm seeing a device on the side of the canon that pushes superheated steam into the canon adding preasure into the chamber which allows for higher grade explosives, due to the fact there is additional pressure would allow for higher velocity and the rate of which the projectile would exit the canon barrel would give the rapid combustion high explosives the time they need to expand forward and not expand outward putting holes in the canon. So you'd basically get almost close to a supersonic speed canon shell...

Higher pressure does not equate bigger shots.
to fire a 6pound cannon shot using gunpowder requires a cartridge of similure size but to fire the same shot using steam requires a massive piece of kit!

A black powder cannon can be pulled by horses but the steam powered version would require a massive mboiler and an equally massive tractor to tow it!

Sorry if I sound disparaging or argumentative but i am just trying to point out that unless the steam is pushing a plunger type device that  steam is not that useful! Higher steam pressure means higher heat levels and possible premature detonation of the black powder charge.
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Prof Marvel
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2013, 07:12:48 am »

May I draw your attention to the anime "Samurai 7" which seems to embody many of the discussed elements...
http://www.funimation.com/shows/samurai-7/anime

yhs
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Daisuke_sanada
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2013, 11:11:47 am »

May I draw your attention to the anime "Samurai 7" which seems to embody many of the discussed elements...
http://www.funimation.com/shows/samurai-7/anime

yhs
prof marvel

I am quite fond of that anime series actually, and is where i originally drew the idea of this story. However the only thing I am drawing from it is the idea of samurai steampunk, nothing as far as automatons with human brains or floating castles, the only EPIC portion of this story is the god machines, with the story I want to draw it to the ground battles and have that almost correct history. Whereas the anime was based off of akira kurosawa's very famous and well directed film seven samurai in which I am also a big fan of that film and the director.
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