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Author Topic: steam power  (Read 5709 times)
KhaiJBach
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« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2007, 04:50:54 am »

something like that.. you'll see Wink
tho.. looking at that.. they charged for it? thats not very well modeled at all.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 05:00:33 am by KhaiJBach » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2007, 10:35:58 am »

I must have one.
NOW
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HAC
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« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2007, 03:15:22 pm »

something like that.. you'll see Wink
tho.. looking at that.. they charged for it? thats not very well modeled at all.
Yep, thats what I thought, too, but heck, it was a promo, so it didn't exactly cost that muhc at all. It did come with a set of rear tracks as well, which seem to be a bit better.. DAZ has a few "steampunk" things, but they really don't have much of a clue as to how the emchanical bits of stem should really look or interact..

Cheers
Harold
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 04:20:57 pm by HAC » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2007, 05:08:31 pm »

Here you go..  Knew I had a printed copy in my files. I beleive its from 1982, can't be sure, no date on my copy..
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Thank you very much, I think that this will be most interesting reading.
Although it may leave me with more questions thatn I started with! ^^
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HAC
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« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2007, 05:21:11 pm »

Feel free to ask, I'll always try to answer...

Cheers
Harold
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Hikaro Takayama
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« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2007, 05:27:12 pm »

This has been rather fasciating reading.... I've been kind of kicking some ideas around for building a steam-powered car that runs off wood pellets (the ones that are made from compressed sawdust and burned in those energy-efficient wood pellet stoves).  

Some of my ideas for the cesign include using a thermostatically-controlled auger feeder and blower(taken directly from one of the stoves to control fuel feed), a dual-stage engine (to boost efficiency), and a closed-loop steam system with a standard car radiator (which can withstand considerable pressure) being used as the condensor (more or less what the radiator does already, except it's primary purpose will be shifted from cooling the super-heated engine coolant to converting the steam back into water and sending it back to the water tank).

Of course, that will have to wait until I get more time and money (thankfully, there's a boiler plant near where I live that, back in the day, actually made traction engines... Now they mostly make commercial heating system type boilers).

Mechanism Man:  If you can pull that off, I definitely want so see pics.... Seeing a steam locomotive chugging down the road would be hilarious.
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For protection, the eyes acquire goggles,
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It is by steam alone that I set my contraptions in motion."
HAC
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« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2007, 05:40:46 pm »

Things you'll need to know
 - the formula for hoop stress in your boiler (for a given working pressure). This will also tell you how thick your boiler plate needs to be.
 - figure on a safety factor of at least 4, for your boiler, preferably higher.
 - check your local laws, you may need a boiler test and certificate.
 - Plan on an active (ie, forced airflow) condesnor, much more efficent that way, and it will take longer to heat saturate.
 
That's a start.... any question, holler, be glad to help out.. Sounds like a fun project..
Cheers
Harold
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« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2007, 05:47:08 pm »

Also, superheat it.
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LeChatNoir
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« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2007, 05:50:00 pm »

In researching my winter project of building a steam engine “upgrade’ for a human powered vehicle I finished up earlier this year, I came across (or perhaps lightly wide swiped) some interesting stuff on solar steam in very small engines. The thing that got my attention was not so much using the sun via a parabolic to boil a liquid, but more the idea of using a liquid with a lower boiling point to create steam in a closed loop.  I could well have been misunderstanding it, since I’ve also heard of using an oil with a higher boiling point, in a closed loop, to transfer the heat from the mirror’s focal point to the boiler.  I suppose I must not go back to find where this was to review.

Regardless, this is indeed an interesting and fun thread.

As to the winter project, I’m leaning toward a monotube boiler, but am still researching and thinking of the aesthetics of the machine in the end.
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« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2007, 05:52:27 pm »

Things you'll need to know
 - the formula for hoop stress in your boiler (for a given working pressure). This will also tell you how thick your boiler plate needs to be.
 - figure on a safety factor of at least 4, for your boiler, preferably higher.
 - check your local laws, you may need a boiler test and certificate.
 - Plan on an active (ie, forced airflow) condesnor, much more efficent that way, and it will take longer to heat saturate.
 
That's a start.... any question, holler, be glad to help out.. Sounds like a fun project..
Cheers
Harold

And HAC,

Thanks for being so willing to share knowledge and help folks learn.  I appreciate that quality.
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HAC
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« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2007, 06:47:12 pm »

Also, superheat it.
That adds a level of complexity that is probably not a good thing in a first time endeavour. Superheat is a tricky thing, and can add a lot of work to your boiler design. Superheat really comes into its own at higher pressures and HP ratings. There's a fair bit of extra pressure to worry about in the superheat tubes, plus you will have to change your throttle design to what's called a "front end throttle".
You need to figure out how many degrees of superheat needed, as well, and that has to be fugured into your boiler design equations.
 Also, superheated steam is DANGEROUS... it's quite capable of stripping flesh from your bones, should you get n the way of a steam leak..
  For the Mk1 version, I'd suggest a simple non-compound at a reasonably low pressure, just to get the design elements working, then if desired, scale it up in later versions.
 That's my .02 (or slightly less, now that the Cdn. dollar is worth a bit more than the greenback  Tongue)

Cheers
Harold
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LeChatNoir
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« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2007, 07:03:30 pm »

I met a fellow a couple months ago who used a steam carpet cleaner boiler coupled with an old single cylinder compressor pump as an engine to power his wooden trike.  Anyone ever have any contact with such an engine set up?  I didn't get a chance to really go over it with him as much as I'd have liked, but the mods to the pump seemed minimal and as if it was basically running it in reverse.

It was beautifully simple for steam and seemed like a nice accessible way for one to get into it, since it was made from readily available stuff (comparatively).
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HAC
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« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2007, 07:08:36 pm »

Novel idea, and basically what a steam engine is, a cylinder/piston unit and a steam generating source.. Valve timing wouldn't be ideal, but it would work. Clever!

Cheers
Harold
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« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2007, 07:10:27 pm »

Thanks for those ideas Harold.  Can you recommend an online resource for steam technology for a steam noob with some grasp of mechanics.  I'm after some further reading for writing research purposes at the moment.
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« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2007, 07:19:47 pm »

Also, superheated steam is DANGEROUS... it's quite capable of stripping flesh from your bones, should you get n the way of a steam leak..
 

Oh yes, and then some; We use superheated steam in the Navy (well at least when I was in, which was about 3 years ago) for a variety of applications, and not only could it strip the flesh from your bones, but at the pressures we used, it would cut right through you like a lightsaber.... If the Engineering officer passed word of a steam leak (which would be indicated by a sudden loss of pressure in one of the lines), everyone in the area was to freeze (unless being hit by said leak) until a team could get there with broom handles.... Wave the handle around and you'd find the leak when it cut the broomhandle in half.....
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LeChatNoir
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« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2007, 07:20:58 pm »

Quote
Novel idea, and basically what a steam engine is, a cylinder/piston unit and a steam generating source.. Valve timing wouldn't be ideal, but it would work. Clever!

Cheers
Harold

It seemed to work well for his project.  I was told it could each 20 mph, but didn't witness it.  He'd certainly done it up well cosmetically.

This is sort of how I'm looking at doing it as well, since we only need to reach 5-10 mph.   The problem I’m faced with is not finding components or parts or the skill set to accomplish the task, but rather where to mount the boiler on the vehicle.  I’m wondering if a monotube boiler would still be effective if made horizontal?  I’ve a friend not far from here who’s a boiler engineer and we’re planning to get together at some point.  Right now I’m just learning all I can.

Perhaps I'll post details over the Tactile threads later, as they develop.

Quote
Wave the handle around and you'd find the leak when it cut the broomhandle in half.....

Yikes!!

« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 07:24:14 pm by LeChatNoir » Logged
HAC
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« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2007, 07:26:24 pm »

Thanks for those ideas Harold.  Can you recommend an online resource for steam technology for a steam noob with some grasp of mechanics.  I'm after some further reading for writing research purposes at the moment.
I'm not sure that an online resource exists, I never really looked. I have acquired over the years a few good texts on steam engine design, etc. I'll have a peek online, and see what I can see. I should check and see if any of my textx have gone public domain, I could scan and post relevant sections, if they have..
Cheers
Harold
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HAC
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« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2007, 07:31:50 pm »

Also, superheated steam is DANGEROUS... it's quite capable of stripping flesh from your bones, should you get n the way of a steam leak..
 

Oh yes, and then some; We use superheated steam in the Navy (well at least when I was in, which was about 3 years ago) for a variety of applications, and not only could it strip the flesh from your bones, but at the pressures we used, it would cut right through you like a lightsaber.... If the Engineering officer passed word of a steam leak (which would be indicated by a sudden loss of pressure in one of the lines), everyone in the area was to freeze (unless being hit by said leak) until a team could get there with broom handles.... Wave the handle around and you'd find the leak when it cut the broomhandle in half.....

 What pressures were you running, out of curiosity? Highest I've been around was a mere 275PSI with 200 degrees superheat..
Cheers
Harold
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HAC
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« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2007, 07:33:06 pm »

Thanks for those ideas Harold.  Can you recommend an online resource for steam technology for a steam noob with some grasp of mechanics.  I'm after some further reading for writing research purposes at the moment.


Found this... Mostly on locomotives,  but its probably a nice intro..

http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/boilers/index.html

Looks quite good from a quick read..

Cheers
Harold
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Hikaro Takayama
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« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2007, 07:46:46 pm »

What pressures were you running, out of curiosity? Highest I've been around was a mere 275PSI with 200 degrees superheat..
Cheers
Harold

IIRC, it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 PSI.... That's why I planned on making sure all the fittings and pipes that I'll eventually use in my project are rated at least double the working pressure.... Maybe even 5x just to be on the safe side.
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HAC
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« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2007, 07:49:18 pm »

Flash tube boiler, then? and 5x is a nice comfort margin....
Cheers
Harold

What were the pressures/superheats you were seeing in the naval tubines?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 07:52:07 pm by HAC » Logged
Hikaro Takayama
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« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2007, 10:23:00 pm »

I was talking about the Navy... I don't know the exact stats, since I wasn't a Boiler Tech... I was a Weaponry Fire Control Systems Technician (or FC), meaning that I mostly dealt with servos, syncros, and ridiculously high voltage (we're talking Tesla-coil type voltages with amperage that was above typical household current) radar components.

The first ship I was on was powered by Gas Turbines (jet engines) and used the exhaust heat to fire the boilers (which were known as Waste Heat Boilers) for our steam applications.

The second ship was fired by 4 oil-feuled boilers and ran some big steam turbines.... Don't know what kind of pressures or temps they worked at, but I do know that they were huge and extremely high.

As for myself, I'm planning on starting off small..... We're talking tabletop mamod small and working my way up from there, unless I can get part-time work in the engine shop at the East Broad Top railroad (which runs two narrow-guage Mikados).
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 10:24:52 pm by Hikaro Takayama » Logged
HAC
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« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2007, 11:13:29 pm »

IAs for myself, I'm planning on starting off small..... We're talking tabletop mamod small and working my way up from there, unless I can get part-time work in the engine shop at the East Broad Top railroad (which runs two narrow-guage Mikados).

The EBT takes volunteers, I think, and they have a pretty nice steam shop.. You might want to look at the Graham Industries machined steam kits, (they have a nice vertical single with reversing gear), and a Cheddar type boiler.  Bit more educational than the Mamod's (but nowhere near as cute)

Cheers
Harold
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LeChatNoir
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« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2007, 11:25:41 pm »

Quote
You might want to look at the Graham Industries machined steam kits

Oh... those are quite nice.  Seems like a very affordable working model to study and scale up to a full size engine.

ETA: You've got me thinking of just machining my own now.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 11:29:27 pm by LeChatNoir » Logged
HAC
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« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2007, 12:10:38 am »

There are some good plans out there, if you are machining from metal stock, or you could look at kits that are castings only, and need machining, some of the Stuart Turner models are exquisite.

Cheers
Harold
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