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Author Topic: Numi Prasarn's "Steampunk Stahp! Or the Appropriation of Prada"  (Read 6319 times)
SpeedyFrenchy
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2013, 04:09:11 pm »

I'm confused. Steampunk predates Prada's Autumn 2012 collection, yes? Who exactly is taking inspiration from who, if at all?
 
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« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2013, 05:15:16 pm »

I'm confused. Steampunk predates Prada's Autumn 2012 collection, yes? Who exactly is taking inspiration from who, if at all?
 

Maybe Prada has access to a "Time machine" and went back in time to "Copy" our clothing ideas?  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2013, 06:26:06 pm »

I'm confused. Steampunk predates Prada's Autumn 2012 collection, yes? Who exactly is taking inspiration from who, if at all?
 

I think the error here is thinking that Ms. Prasarn actually knew when and how the Steampunk movement popularised.

Actually her central thesis was that the collection was a parody poking fun at male power by using cheap fabric like denim and American football icons for prints and such, and that the 19th. C. aesthetic was only there to give the superficial impression of power at a time when men dominated the world...   All fine if the purpose of the collection is an "anti-male" parody  Undecided  But her supporting arguments were fundamentally flawed because she was assuming that we were claiming that the collection was another form of Steampunk, finally proceeding to deride us for being a very recent movement ("rose in a matter of months") who tacked itself to the maker movement (oh why oh why did the Makers allow those pesky Steampunks  to waltz right in and ruin the party?  Cheesy ).

My response was a very wide-palmed slap back at her.

Or maybe the Steampunks in 1987 had a time machine so they could travel to the future 2012 and copy Prada... er... no... wait, that violates causality does it not? Wink.  That is a physical impossibility in this timeline.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 10:30:56 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2013, 12:11:49 am »

"As it stands, Steampunk wishes it was enlightened parody and commentary, but as a movement it is currently incapable of being so."


What is she talking about?


Quite.

Dr Q, don't you feel a new song coming out of this drivel?

Possibly.

I don't know enough about fashion to tackle that side of it, but there is a long enough history of histrionic, knee-jerk backlashing by bloggers and Journos against Steampunk to make for a verse or two.

Mind you, I am a part of the 'Movement', so I may be incapable of it. Tongue
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« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2013, 01:32:22 am »

I think the problem is more with folks who are so consumed with the idea that what they are doing is so terribly important that it actually matters in the world.  Steampunk may matter, but we inside it are certainly not consumed with that possibility; but "fashion writers" who write the magazines and buy the magazines and so on - while they may ensure that certain designers make a lot of money, that certainly is no indicator that "high fashion" has any real importance in the world.

Well, since Hugo Boss designed the NAZI SS uniforms, anyhow.



Cheers

Chas.
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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2013, 11:55:11 am »

I think the problem is more with folks who are so consumed with the idea that what they are doing is so terribly important that it actually matters in the world.  Steampunk may matter, but we inside it are certainly not consumed with that possibility; but "fashion writers" who write the magazines and buy the magazines and so on - while they may ensure that certain designers make a lot of money, that certainly is no indicator that "high fashion" has any real importance in the world.

Well, since Hugo Boss designed the NAZI SS uniforms, anyhow.



Cheers

Chas.


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Personally, speaking of fashion designers from former Axis countries, and if you forgive the fact that I've posted these videos somewhere else at BG, I would be rather interested to hear from a colourful character in the fashion industry, such as Edna "E" Mode  Grin

http://pixar.wikia.com/Edna_Mode

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Edna Mode Scene 2
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 12:01:32 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2013, 12:02:20 pm »

Oooo, crud; Godwin's law!

Goose stepping morons aside and to reiterate; I think it's entirely possible for 2 separate groups to look at something as wildly diverse as “a specific period of time” and come up with different ways of reinterpreting and using it.

Comparatively there is no grounds what so ever that one is better than the other.  Merely they have drawn their cup of inspirational water from different ends of the same lake.

If people comment that they look the same, (which they kind of do, but not very much lets be honest). Then it is down to the fashion theorist to extol the virtues of the design house and Steampunk to extol the virtues of the sub-culture.

The one thing it is INADVISABLE to do, is for the fashion theorist to try and explain Steampunk in reaction to the initial comment. It will easily surpass her expertise, because it's not about fashion.  
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« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2013, 12:54:26 pm »

Ms.Prasarn has adopted the one journalistic style designed to get right up my nose! Select a straw man at random - for example, Steampunk has appropriated the 2012 Prada collection - and then proceed to show great cleverness in knocking the straw man down. People may have said to her "doesn't the Prada blah blah look steampunk?" but they are unlikely to be anybody with the ability to actually recognise steampunk fashion. Clearly, anybody with more than a modicum of SP fashion sense could tell you that the Prada collection is NOT steampunk. At least 4 men's outdoor wear outfits and not a single hat among 'em!
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« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2013, 05:16:04 pm »

Upon successful interception of the enemy vessel, and as Admiral of the fleet I have been asked by the Captain and the Crew about the proper way to register the "kill" on the USAS Orca's hull.   How do you pictorially represent a Numi??
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« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2013, 05:48:16 pm »

I would resist the urge to do a google image search on numi. Though it offers an image, it is one that has a near infinite capacity to cause offence.
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Argus Fairbrass
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« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2013, 07:38:51 pm »

I honestly did try to read through her diatribe, but the pretentiousometer was so off the charts I couldn't really stomach it.

Given all the long line Prince Edward jackets and what have you, from an outside perspective I'd say the influence was more slightly awkward bride groom than Steampunk.

In her defence, yes a lot of those Prada promo picks did get posted around various Steampunk websites including this one, yes some folks were wondering if it had an influence and maybe a few even stated that. Well I concur that's absolutely outrageous and completely understand why she has felt the need to saddle her oh so very high horse, and tell us all at such great length about it.

Given the tasteful and funky twists of design such as baseball helmet patterns disguised as paisley, no it probably wasn't so much, because I couldn't imagine Steampunk design involving anything quite so gauche (tiny gears disguised as paisley, well now you're talking).

A parody of male power ay? pinstripe fabric actually made out of denim. Cartoonish lapel pins cleverly satirising the achievements they were historically served to denote. That is just so awesomely rad luvvie darling, I've never seen anything like it!

I would expect no less a standard of genius from a company who started off making luggage cases, and who's first iconic and quintessential item was a black nylon tote bag.

Still "This is Prada's commentary on posturing and presentation", I'm sure it's worth every penny.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 06:37:13 am by Argus Fairbrass » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2013, 09:06:28 pm »

Well said, Mr. F.

Well said indeed.



Chas.
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Kryss LaBryn
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« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2013, 09:46:14 pm »

What I'm afraid I don't quite get is how it seems (to me) that we are expected to be bowled over by the cleverness of Mr. Prada (or of his design team) in presenting designs which, while appearing at a distance to be one thing, are actually, upon closer inspection, quite the opposite!

Quote
...the collection is a parade of formal wear bursting with signifiers of power and wealth that are then turned on their head. The high, layered collars and neckties point to the stiff styles of aristocracy of the late Regency/early Victorian era while also physically encouraging the wearer to keep their chin up (or at least give the illusion of a thick elongated neck and regal posture). But they are actually false collars attached to cotton tee-shirts/turtlenecks. The pinstripe “wool”, a pattern and fabric often associated as the armor of wealthy businessmen, is made of denim, a material historically associated with the working class (and now-a-days, casual wear). The “painted silk” of the bath/lounge-robe-as-outerwear-jackets is woven cotton...

My question is simply how is it possible for us to recognize the cleverness apparently inherent in attaching a proper stiff collar to a T-shirt (I would call it less "cleverness" and rather more "Marxist utopia"*) when the only pictures and video I've come across of the line only show us the presented illusion without revealing the twist.

And honestly, I don't think I've heard anyone say that the designs are inherently Steampunk; just an acknowledgement that Vicwardian themes are seeming to be on an upswing in the larger Western culture just now, and that one or two of the pieces would look very natty when paired with the proper accoutrements.

However, if the items in question are actually made of much cheaper materials than they first appear, then I really can't imagine very many of us would be willing to pay the rather hefty price tags to purchase one new. However, I do look forward to an upswing in useful apparel items in thrift stores in a few years. Wink

Besides, it would be nice to think that things like proper coats and waist coats and those lovely stiff collars and such might become more commonplace as people attempt to copy the look without cluing in to the "genius" of tacking them to a T-shirt (I really can't get over that).

I suppose I'm being rather tangential to the main topic; my apologies. I suppose I simply wanted to comment on the rather strange idea that (a) tacking on a proper collar to a T-shirt is terribly clever; and (b) that that is something we should have clued in on from a distance, when the entire point (so far as I can tell) is that from a distance, you can't.

I feel slightly as though I am being chastised for failing to reach a conclusion I had no possible way of reaching without viewing the items in question first-hand, by a person who, to add insult to injury, failed to so much as consult Wikipedia to confirm her initial impressions of a group with which she apparently has only a passing acquaintance. To me, it makes her complaints about Steampunk's claiming of the Prada line (as we apparently also did with the Maker scene) that much less credible.

However, as others have said, an actual conversation with her would doubtless be a fine afternoon's entertainment, and be both enlightening and engaging for all concerned.

I'll bring the clotted cream and fresh preserves or is that an oxymoron.

*Marxist utopia: It lacks class. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2013, 12:12:43 pm »

A preserve can be fresh in many ways, freshly made, freshly bought or a fresh en devour. Given the nature of preserve and its connotations I would also add that it stands a very good chance of remaining fresh for a good long time to come.

If the sentence seems like a contradiction merely change perspective.     
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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2013, 04:37:49 am »

Oh, and by the by, Mr. Angus - was that really a Godwin transgression?

Hugo Boss (the head of the company himself) really was the designer for the uniforms of the SS, working directly for them to give them what historians generally admit was a very effective and intimidating look.



Cheers!

Chas.
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« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2013, 06:56:40 am »

Oh, and by the by, Mr. Angus - was that really a Godwin transgression?

Hugo Boss (the head of the company himself) really was the designer for the uniforms of the SS, working directly for them to give them what historians generally admit was a very effective and intimidating look.



Cheers!

Chas.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Apparently, Godwin's Law very nearly scuttled the planning for the D-Day invasion of Normandy.
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« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2013, 07:06:08 am »

But the 2nd. corollary of Godwin's Law states that "any ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful."  Therefore the thread will continue...
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« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2013, 11:08:41 am »

Think of it like speeding towards the lip of beachy head, to shout "Cliff!" does not predict an inevitable sailing from it into the clutches of gravity.
It is uttered in the hope of review and corrective action, whatever that action may turn out to be.
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« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2013, 12:01:39 pm »

Hugo Boss (the head of the company himself) really was the designer for the uniforms of the SS, working directly for them to give them what historians generally admit was a very effective and intimidating look.

Apparently they were also very hot and uncomfortable, so good on Mr. Boss for that.  Grin
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2013, 07:04:06 pm »

Interesting look, then there is the small matter of the Russian winter.
It's difficult to intimidate -30 Degrees Centigrade with a flared trouser, a tight collar and peaked cap.
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« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2013, 07:34:00 pm »

Hugo Boss (the head of the company himself) really was the designer for the uniforms of the SS, working directly for them to give them what historians generally admit was a very effective and intimidating look.


Apparently they were also very hot and uncomfortable, so good on Mr. Boss for that.  Grin


Fashion is seldom logical.  Some people like it hot and uncomfortable.  One has to wonder how that gets chosen as fashion...

"Mistress Lili" by Spanish digital artist Rebeca Puebla.
http://rebecapuebla.blogspot.com/2009/04/twisted-dolls-mistress-lili-legs.html

 Grin

Think of it like speeding towards the lip of beachy head, to shout "Cliff!" does not predict an inevitable sailing from it into the clutches of gravity.
It is uttered in the hope of review and corrective action, whatever that action may turn out to be.


Yes but we are too goofy to let such mentions bother us.  We are the only people on the web, that I am aware of, who actually collect spam messages that we deem funny, and then make threads to display such posts!  Trolling becomes fodder for laughter and conversation.

EDIT: Nov/20/2015 to cover for missing picture server
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Clym Angus
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« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2013, 07:47:25 pm »

Quote
"Mistress Lili" by Spanish digital artist Rebeca Puebla.

That's totally unacceptable! I am mortally offended.

As a pragmatist I would challenge anyone to goose step in those heels!

This is total loo-laa doo lally skull-fart brain fiction!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 07:49:09 pm by Clym Angus » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2013, 07:50:02 pm »

Quote
"Mistress Lili" by Spanish digital artist Rebeca Puebla.


That's totally unacceptable! I am mortally offended.

As a pragmatist I would challenge anyone to goose step in those heels!

This is total loo-laa doo lally skull-fart brain fiction!


Yes, she did mention something about a goose, but I doubt she was talking about marching....
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/550x/13/4d/14/134d14baf481f7d2785b5bfc7bccfc18.jpg

Nice heels...
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/550x/02/bc/ed/02bced1c959055aad6c2a1540ac1a1b4.jpg


Well, don't look at me like that!  After all, this is a thread about fashion, I'm just trying to bring us back to topic  Wink
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 08:02:21 pm by J. Wilhelm » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2013, 07:59:32 pm »

Quote
"Mistress Lili" by Spanish digital artist Rebeca Puebla.

That's totally unacceptable! I am mortally offended.

As a pragmatist I would challenge anyone to goose step in those heels!

This is total loo-laa doo lally skull-fart brain fiction!

Yes, she did mention something about a goose, but I doubt she was talking about marching....

Given her art I would say, without fear of contradiction. That there is a great deal going on in the ladies head.
To some it maybe good, to some it maybe bad. Yet still by the nature of the works it is Van Gogh busy.

Such beautiful anger.
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« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2015, 10:58:04 am »

Advance apologies for the thread necromancy, I was brought back to this thread because of a post on Facebook

I would resist the urge to do a google image search on numi. Though it offers an image, it is one that has a near infinite capacity to cause offence.

I did & I am offended.

Any time I see anyone who clearly has nothing to do with any alternative culture with brightly coloured hair, my blood boils.  I wish they'd stick to their own fashions & leave the cool nstuff to the rest of us who know what to do with it.
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