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Author Topic: Steampunk Ordnance  (Read 4307 times)
5paz
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« on: September 09, 2012, 07:55:56 am »

My job in the Navy was Aviation Ordnance, in other words I worked with bombs. So I was wondering if anyone has some good reference material of maybe airship deck hands that handle the ordnance? Also material of bombs, missiles, bullets would be greatly appreciated.

Spaz
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 08:06:57 am by 5paz » Logged
DarkMithras
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 06:15:54 pm »

If you're talking real life, then here are a couple of WWI sites.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers_zeppelins.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_I
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/AVbomberZeppelin.htm

As for crew, no idea.
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 07:09:53 pm »

Just for fun and to get you in the mind set you might want to watch these:

Zeppelin (1971) part 1


Russian detective - First World War - Zeppelin Episode


http://www.thesteampunkempire.com/video/the-war-file-the-zeppelin-1-4

You might also want to look into the various US Navy Dirigibles: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/ac-usn22/z-types/zrs4.htm

A funded mad scientist like DR. B.F. Skinner could have developed light weight "smart" weapons for airships like his pigeon guidance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon and his infamous "bat bomb"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb   Apparently both worked surprisingly well but various government officials had more qualms about sacrificing bats and pigeons than killing people.  With the addition of recoilless artillery and light weight, high yield bombs an airship could be turned into a virtual "puff" (AC-130).  With less scruples and chemical or biological weapons an airship could have been a nation killer. 
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 08:04:00 pm »

The problem with recoilless artillery is that it HAS a recoil, it's just expended as a gas out the back. Try shooting that straight down from a zeppelin, it would probably rip your superstructure to shreds unless you lowered it down like the box in that video.

There was also at least one zeppelin that got outfitted with an antiair gun on top.
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Captain
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 08:33:18 pm »

The problem with recoilless artillery is that it HAS a recoil, it's just expended as a gas out the back. Try shooting that straight down from a zeppelin, it would probably rip your superstructure to shreds unless you lowered it down like the box in that video.

There was also at least one zeppelin that got outfitted with an antiair gun on top.




Yes, you have to be aware of the backblast of any recoilless weapon like shooting the old trusty-rusty LAW in front of your buddies. 



Besides remote mounting as you suggested and side mounting backblast can be baffled and redirected like the LARK:



STINGERs used an electric booster to get the rocket far enough away to be safe.

The advantage to a recoilless system include that it is more bang-for-the-weight and puts much less stress of the relatively delicate duraluminum structure.  Something like the M-19 automatic grenade launcher would also deliver impressive firepower.  Rockets and grenades were some of the first successful helicopter weapons due to similar concerns. 



I was very fond of grenades since they were still falling while you were turning to leave an encounter.  Otherwise crunchies tend to get brave enough to start actually aiming when they see your tail fins. 
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Angus A Fitziron
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 09:40:20 pm »

Brief Google showed this: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWzeppelinraids.htm

Briefly, the Zeppelin L15 that raided London on 13th October 1915 carried 28 explosive bombs of 110lbs each and 15 incendiary bombs of 22lbs each. Some film footage of similar Zeppelins show bombs in racks that are more rounded ~ typical tear drop shape ~ and with a finned tail on each. I am guessing by the size they are the HE 110 pounders. Maybe the incendiaries were hand dropped? Nobody wants a 'hanging' incendiary underneath a hydrogen filled airship!

Update:
I recently visited the Zeppelin Museum in Meersberg, Southern Germany and they have on display one of the machine guns from L59, described as a 'Becker gun 08, heavy MG' but I can't find any further info. Photography was not permitted so I am dependant on the web site pictures.



The 'official' Zeppelin museum at Friedrichshafen understandably focus on the civilian and technological aspects so little there of ordnance.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 09:56:04 pm by Angus A Fitziron » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 10:20:28 pm »

Unfortunately I did not know about this museum when I lived less than 200miles north in Schw√§bisch Hall.   Embarrassed

If you are going for an earlier era, there was always swivel guns:

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W. S. Marble
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 01:59:51 am »

Don't feel too bad about...I started to kick myself for being only 60 miles or so north of it when I lived in Neu Ulm, then Goeppingen, then Karlsruhe.  But now I see the museum didn't open until 1989; I missed it by two years anyway!

But it certainly looks like a fascinating place to lose an entire, pleasant day.
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pakled
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 03:19:09 am »

I suppose you could always branch into clockwork autonomous 'semi-guided' missiles, or other engines of destruction.
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Captain
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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 07:31:47 pm »

I suppose you could always branch into clockwork autonomous 'semi-guided' missiles, or other engines of destruction.


Or clockwork activated DPICM (Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions) rockets, shells, missiles, or bombs. 



Basically the theory is that a whole bunch of neatly spread out little bangs are much more efficient than one big sloppy bang.  The dual purpose part refers to a "smart" ignitor that springs the bomblet back up in the air 5-15' before blowing up as a shrapnel spewing anti-personnel grenade if it hits soft dirt or, if it hits hard metal, going off as an armor penetrating shaped charge.  Other dual munitions like incendiary or smoke would also be possible. 

I still like Dr. Skinner's bat-bomb.   Grin  Maybe a truly vicious DPICM bat-bomb hybrid like bionic blood-seeking mosquitoes carrying mini-micro-bombs....



W.S. Marble - I was there about 1989-91.....    :'(  Since we found that Condor offers non-stop flights from Fairbanks and Whitehorse to, among other places, Frankfurt, we have been tentatively planning to take an extended European vacation since she lived in southern France when I was in Germany.  So we might get another chance to catch things like this overly cool sounding museum.   I wonder if they picked up any of this collection: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117162/British-fan-German-Zeppelins-set-sell-15-TON-collection-airship-memorabilia-worth-1million--plan-display-hangar-museum-really-took-off.html
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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 12:25:56 am »

Duel purpose ICM, also had a capability of spreading land mines over a specific area.  These had a 24 hour life span before they exploded on their own; it's use was an area denile weapon.   These were on a mission specific control; which meant that all we did as FO's was make sure that they got depolyed in an area.

One thing you might consider in the recoiless area is how the North American B 25 was outfitted with a recoiless cannon and used in close air support; as well as the P 39 air  cobra, which had an automatic cannon in the prop shaft.  The American pilots hated it, but the Russians made this fighter a tank buster during WWII.  Also consider that Germany and Russia mastered the use of cannons in fighter aircraft.

Hope these help
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 01:19:28 am »

Duel purpose ICM, also had a capability of spreading land mines over a specific area.  


I was suppressing that memory.   Undecided   I recall that there were even plans to deploy Satan engineered anti-helicopter landmines this way.  One version even tracked and IDed the very unique rotor noise of friendly and non-friendly aircraft (not that I was ever convinced that duck-hunters cared which they shot down) then basically launched little rockets trailing piano wire into their flight path.  



It might be possible to reverse engineer the Dr. Skinner trained rat/pigeon guidance system to operate anti-airship incendiary rockets (like Congreve rockets).  Sort of the same idea as them using falcons' superior eye sight to spot dragons in the movie Reign of Fire only they would be packing.  Of course the birds would not work at night.    A little more on early unpiloted weapons: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=172747&start=285
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 02:28:52 pm »

Duel purpose, nah typical ordinance.  Now, if you really want to repress some memory, let's chat about nuke artillery rounds  Roll Eyes
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Matthias Gladstone
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 02:35:34 pm »

I always liked the Smutt's torpedo from Space: 1889

It's basically a propeller driven cruise missile.
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 05:27:04 pm »

Duel purpose, nah typical ordinance.  Now, if you really want to repress some memory, let's chat about nuke artillery rounds  Roll Eyes


It is the anti-helicopter part that I am trying to re-suppress. 

I think that the US "Davy Crockett" recoiless rifle nuke was the smallest and scariest but I seem to recall that the Soviets had a nuclear mortar with a maximum range of less than the blast radius. 

Matthias Gladstone - what does Smutt's torpedoes do in Space 1889?
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Matthias Gladstone
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2012, 12:58:00 am »

Duel purpose, nah typical ordinance.  Now, if you really want to repress some memory, let's chat about nuke artillery rounds  Roll Eyes


It is the anti-helicopter part that I am trying to re-suppress. 

I think that the US "Davy Crockett" recoiless rifle nuke was the smallest and scariest but I seem to recall that the Soviets had a nuclear mortar with a maximum range of less than the blast radius. 

Matthias Gladstone - what does Smutt's torpedoes do in Space 1889?


It fills the role of a regular torpedo - tube launched anti-shipping weapon.

Nuke artillery rounds, look for "atomic betty" - it was a railway gun that could a kiloton range warhead.
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5paz
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2012, 07:39:08 pm »

Thank you all for the information. I should have said this in my original post, but I am planning to use this info to try and create a outfit. Now that I have a few ideas as to what I will be working towards, its time to start finding the materials. Thank you once again.
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2012, 12:26:11 am »

Duel purpose, nah typical ordinance.  Now, if you really want to repress some memory, let's chat about nuke artillery rounds  Roll Eyes


It is the anti-helicopter part that I am trying to re-suppress. 

I think that the US "Davy Crockett" recoiless rifle nuke was the smallest and scariest but I seem to recall that the Soviets had a nuclear mortar with a maximum range of less than the blast radius. 

Matthias Gladstone - what does Smutt's torpedoes do in Space 1889?



The Davy  crocket was put into service late fifties early sixties.  We had .155, and 8 inch nuclear artillery rounds supposidly up until mid ninties.  Soviet union had .152, .155, and there equivilant of 8 inch.  Yield was about ten mega tons or so, but in batter or battalion it really didn't matter, dead is dead. 
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« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2012, 01:24:10 pm »

Reminds me of the nuclear hand grenades from the game Paranoia. Didn't matter how far you threw them; it was never far enough. Lips sealed
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2012, 11:18:18 pm »



I think that the US "Davy Crockett" recoiless rifle nuke was the smallest and scariest but I seem to recall that the Soviets had a nuclear mortar with a maximum range of less than the blast radius. 




Um.  That was us.

U.S. Marines.  Developed, but so far as I know never deployed nor even built.  Scary times.



Chas.
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2012, 12:30:20 am »



I think that the US "Davy Crockett" recoiless rifle nuke was the smallest and scariest but I seem to recall that the Soviets had a nuclear mortar with a maximum range of less than the blast radius.  




Um.  That was us.

U.S. Marines.  Developed, but so far as I know never deployed nor even built.  Scary times.


Chas.


I was refereeing a simulation once where the US general and the OPFOR (opposition forces) general got into a "phallus fight" with the long range 2-pack MLRS ammo and Scuds.  They did not issue an order to either of their staffs or any subordinate units (some actually in the field) for over 24 hours.  I finally convince the chief administrator (not on base) to declare that they had run out of big long rockets so that they had to start grudgingly running a war again.  It is a really, really good thing that some folks did not have access to things like the Davy Crockett.   Roll Eyes  By the same token it sometimes amazed me what weapons systems were available but forgotten.  One division was virtually wiped out but had not requested a single USAF asset, used their combat engineers, or launched even one of their helicopters, which included Apaches.   Huh  These real time simulations were valuable tools to find out which of your staff officers and commanders really knew how to do their jobs.  There might even be a lesson here for fictional SP airship scenarios.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M270_Multiple_Launch_Rocket_System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scud

« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 12:38:40 am by Captain » Logged
Damnd of Hell
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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2012, 02:35:08 pm »

The real scariness my friend; is that no one can definetly say if the arty nukes have all been accounted for.  Back packs, land mines, and such yes; arty everyone shrugs shoulders.
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