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Author Topic: The BBC Sherlock Thread - Spoilers Ahead!  (Read 6479 times)
Evelyn Adler
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« on: February 04, 2012, 10:20:41 pm »

I could hardly believe that such a thread didn't already exist on the forum, but I searched far and wide and couldn't find one.
So - this thread is for discussing the BBC TV series "Sherlock".
For the thread about the new Sherlock Homes movies, this way please.


So... the most interesting question concerning "Sherlock" right now: How did he do it?
How did Sherlock Holmes fake his own death in "The Reichenbach Fall"?

Theories? Ideas?

« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 11:30:13 pm by Evelyn Adler » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 10:24:49 pm »

Sorry, just altered the title as "may" seemed redundant Wink

Personally I think this... He jumped into the rubbish van to cushion his fall, and played dead... then he maybe paid off the medical staff to look after him and not tell anyone?
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« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:40:50 pm by Augustus Longeye » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 10:46:00 pm »

He asked a favour of the infatuated doctor.

I presume he realised that the roof mean't that Moriarty was to get him to jump. Part of the favour would have been a couple of blood bags secreted in his coat, to burst on inpact. Sherlock would have used the doctors computer to research the best way to survive such a fall, and then used is enormous self control to fall in exactly the best position for survival.

The doctor then rushed out pronounced him dead and brought him to the morgue to treat him. She then faked his death certificate.
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Evelyn Adler
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 11:02:14 pm »

Sorry, just altered the title as "may" seemed redundant Wink

Personally I think this... He jumped into the rubbish van to cushion his fall, and played dead... then he maybe paid off the medical staff to look after him and not tell anyone?
~Longeye~

I believe, something like that is very likely.

- Sherlock tells Molly "I need you!" - that means, he needs her help, in something, that requires a bit of "colouring outside the lines" I suppose. Like hiding/exchanging a body, faking a death certificate or something like that.

- the crowd at the "death" site are probably members of the Baker Street Irregulars.

- as is the cyclist, who runs Watson down. Who was told by Sherlock exactly where to stand and watch him.
So that Watson could be run over by the cyclist, didn't see what was going on behind the rubbish van and was made to believe, Sherlock has actually died. If Watson is convinced, everyone else is too.
(Which may be a clue to the next episode. Apparently it was not enough, that Sherlock had to jump to his death, visible by all. It was also necessary to fake his funeral AND have even his closest friend believe he is dead. Why? The shooters have been called off and with Moriarty apparently dead, the threat should have ended, shouldn't it?)

I still wonder about the "Sherlock look-alike" that must exist somewhere. Clearly the little girl was frightened of him and that was done on purpose; so either Moriarty himself disguised as Sherlock or employed someone who resembles him. Where is that man?

Also Moriarty's body (?) disappeared from the hospital roof, since the SUN headline Mycroft is reading says "Suicide of Fake Genius." and there is no mention of another death/murder/suicide. I guess if Moriarty is really dead, he's in Sherlock's grave. In that case, Sherlock must have anticipated his death - but to me he seemed genuinely shocked when Moriarty killed himself.

Mysteries over mysteries! I love it!  Smiley


(also, thank you for altering the title!)



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Mr Peter Harrow, Esq
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 11:06:58 pm »

Sherlock has to unravel Moriartys network, so he faked the funeral as well to give him the time to do this.
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2012, 11:12:46 pm »

Yes, I think Mr. Harrow has it.
Without Moriarty the network would be nothing, but I would bet anything that there are things in place so that if he dies, the world burns with him.
Also, I've always wondered to myself; "What is Moriarty isn't the real Moriarty? What if he really is an actor, being paid by the real Moriarty behind the scenes to put on the show?"
Let's be honest, deception within deception is fitting of him...

Also, if Moriarty did really die on the roof, I think Mycroft would have sorted out the body before it got the the police. Too many questions otherwise.
~Longeye~
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2012, 11:23:22 pm »

Rewatching Reichenbach Fall for the 3rd of 4th time as we speak. I`m taking notes this time. Will be back in a bit once I`ve seen it all again and worked out my notes.

In the meantime: I really don`t think that the Moriarty we know isn`t the real Moriarty but an actor. The way he acts, the way he talks, the way he reacts to what happens immediately - an actor would not be able to predict what Sherlock will do, Moriarty would.

I do definitely think Molly is in on this, though I`m not entirely sure yet what her part in all of this is.

The real big questions are indeed: how and why did he not only fake his suicide, but also the funeral and everything? Who are in on this? Why can`t John know anything?

I can`t believe how obsessed I`m getting over this XD  I want to solve this, darn it XD
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2012, 11:27:35 pm »

Landing point a set-up. Watson kept deliberately with low brick building between him and landing point. Lorry with inflatable stunt landing mat on the back. You see lorry just pulling away with deflated mat on the back as Watson rounds the corner (after being purposefully knocked down by the cyclist to stall him so he wouldn't see the clean up). So for the next step, a corpse provided by Molly (or the corpse of 'Moriarty' wearing the Shelock mask that Moriarty wore when he kidnapped the children.  Body rushed away, Molly can take care of the official stuff, it's her job after all.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 11:30:24 pm by Major Willoughby Chase » Logged
Evelyn Adler
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2012, 11:44:10 pm »

Why can`t John know anything?

Because it has to be believable, that he is mourning for Sherlock and he is too honest, to fake that in an authentic way. He'd botch it up, eventually.

I think the theory, that Sherlock needs to unravel Moriarty's network is a very good one. But I'm still not convinced, Moriarty is really dead.

In the meantime: I really don`t think that the Moriarty we know isn`t the real Moriarty but an actor. The way he acts, the way he talks, the way he reacts to what happens immediately - an actor would not be able to predict what Sherlock will do, Moriarty would.

Except if Moriarty is such a genius, that he could in turn predict Sherlock's moves and give the actor a very precise briefing of what to expect and how to react.
I think of that scene at the swimming pool and the phonecall Moriarty received. What, if that was the real Moriarty calling?  Grin

...did I mention I love spinning theories like this? *g*

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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 11:57:48 pm »

not my theory -
in an earlier scene Sherlock is seen playing with a squash ball. Apparently, if you place a squash ball under your armpit it can stop your pulse so it would appear that Sherlock was dead...this is ,of course, after rolling off the rubbish van....
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2012, 11:57:59 pm »

I just like the fact that instead of just leaving it on the usual " Is he alive?" the show has given us the " How did he survive it?". Also another season means more Benedict Cumberbatch! (yay) ...
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 12:45:36 am »

What about: 'Moriarty' is/was an actor employed by the real Moriarty, who was disguised as Sherlock! Oh O.K. it wasn't a very good idea I suppose.

Still, it would explain the girl's reaction ... but not why he'd shoot himself....

Gareth.
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2012, 02:16:16 am »

Sorry, just altered the title as "may" seemed redundant Wink

Personally I think this... He jumped into the rubbish van to cushion his fall, and played dead... then he maybe paid off the medical staff to look after him and not tell anyone?
~Longeye~

I believe, something like that is very likely.

- Sherlock tells Molly "I need you!" - that means, he needs her help, in something, that requires a bit of "colouring outside the lines" I suppose. Like hiding/exchanging a body, faking a death certificate or something like that.

- the crowd at the "death" site are probably members of the Baker Street Irregulars.

- as is the cyclist, who runs Watson down. Who was told by Sherlock exactly where to stand and watch him.
So that Watson could be run over by the cyclist, didn't see what was going on behind the rubbish van and was made to believe, Sherlock has actually died. If Watson is convinced, everyone else is too.
(Which may be a clue to the next episode. Apparently it was not enough, that Sherlock had to jump to his death, visible by all. It was also necessary to fake his funeral AND have even his closest friend believe he is dead. Why? The shooters have been called off and with Moriarty apparently dead, the threat should have ended, shouldn't it?)

I still wonder about the "Sherlock look-alike" that must exist somewhere. Clearly the little girl was frightened of him and that was done on purpose; so either Moriarty himself disguised as Sherlock or employed someone who resembles him. Where is that man?

Also Moriarty's body (?) disappeared from the hospital roof, since the SUN headline Mycroft is reading says "Suicide of Fake Genius." and there is no mention of another death/murder/suicide. I guess if Moriarty is really dead, he's in Sherlock's grave. In that case, Sherlock must have anticipated his death - but to me he seemed genuinely shocked when Moriarty killed himself.

Mysteries over mysteries! I love it!  Smiley


(also, thank you for altering the title!)


I don`t think he jumped into the rubbish van. Sure, it was positioned there quite obviously, but if it had any purpose at all it was for distraction for a moment, not for Sherlock to fall into or anything. They showed a body falling on the ground, right on that spot. The truck also has roughly 1,5 meter high fences all around, presumably to keep the garbage in. It would be quite a feat to, after having fallen so far, to get yourself together, climb over those fences, lie down, and get blood everywhere before John walks around the corner. Plus, the whole John-getting-distracted-by-the-cyclist thing doesn`t work, because he could already see Sherlock lying there before he got run over.
Besides, another reason the truck probably wasn`t used, is because Sherlock obviously did not expect Moriarty to kill himself. Instead, he was probably counting on Moriarty looking over the edge to watch Sherlock die.

However, while falling, you can see Sherlock is trying to keep his feet down, he`s not falling like someone who`s given up, he`s falling like someone who`s trying to gain control. He was probably trying to fall in such a way he`d maybe just break his legs.

My guess is he needed Molly to get drugs for him that made him appear to be dead, if he got a strong enough dose that it would work immediately without actually killing him, he could`ve injected it right after falling. This would work better than that rubber ball, that has been suggested. Yes, if you put a rubber ball under your armpit it basically stops the bloodflow and therefore makes it seem like you have no pulse, but to fool an army doctor who knows you very well you`ll have to do more than just stop your pulse in one arm.
What I suppose could`ve happened is that Sherlock would be declared dead quite soon, get brought to the morgue where Molly would take over. She could then, when he woke up, switch his body for Moriarty`s, and get Moriarty`s buried instead of Sherlock`s.

I think there`s still something up with the assassins, and that`s why he needed to make sure everyone still believed him to be dead. For starters, didn`t those assassins want that (non-existing) code? Moriarty could`ve promised it to them in return for letting Sherlock kill himself. But then Moriarty killed himself, and Sherlock realised they would be coming after him then. Besides that, *four* assassins moved into Baker Street, we know two of them were killed during the episode so two were left, while there were 3 after John, Lestrade and Mrs. Hudson, so who knows how many more Moriarty has running around that are still in some way loyal to him.

It`s a pretty good theory that Sherlock is going after all of them first now, I`m liking it. It fits.

All of this does leave several things left unsolved: why does the girl scream when she sees Sherlock? How did Moriarty manage that? Lestrade has Moriarty`s phone, can`t he have figured out anything with that? Also, for the lulz & giggles: who is it that puts an arm around Mrs. Hudson at the cemetary when John is still talking to Sherlock`s grave? xD

Oh god I`m talking rubbish aren`t I? XD  I should probably go to sleep before I continue this.
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Evelyn Adler
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 02:40:23 am »

Plus, the whole John-getting-distracted-by-the-cyclist thing doesn`t work, because he could already see Sherlock lying there before he got run over.

Please re-watch the part where Sherlock is looking down over the terrain. Between the spot where John Watson gets out of the taxi (and is told to stay, by Sherlock) and Barts Hospital, there is a narrow building, I think it's garages. John can see Sherlock jump, but he cannot see him land.


On a side note: am I the only one who was moved to tears by John Watson's sad speech at Sherlock's grave?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 02:45:24 am by Evelyn Adler » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2012, 07:22:35 am »

i loved it when he was like "just stop this, stop it."
he knows he couldn't be dead, i htink there is more of an inkling to this. John knows it but at the same time he can't come to terms with it cause he knows Sherlock is too clever

JUST HURRY UP! HURRY UP!
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 07:53:50 pm »

I read somewhere the Moff said the clues were all there to be found.  Well, if the clues are there they've bypassed me completely (mind you, the "clues were there" in Through The Keyhole as well and I never got any of those either).  Sherlock I ain't.  But BC is great.  And his mother, Wanda Ventham too.  Splendid in UFO and Captain Kronos Vampire Hunter.  I've got the latter, would love a box set of the former but justifying it...

Roll on whenever Sherl is back on the aether...
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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 02:25:02 pm »

It would appear that CBS in America has latched onto the idea of a contemporary set Holmes and are bringing out their own version. In this one, however, Holmes lives in New York rather than Baker Street (shades of the later Baz Rathbone films there). It is to be titled 'Elementary' and will star Johnny Lee Miller as Holmes. Not surprisingly the BBC and Steven Moffat are not impressed..

More details here
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 10:52:11 pm »

It would appear that CBS in America has latched onto the idea of a contemporary set Holmes and are bringing out their own version. In this one, however, Holmes lives in New York rather than Baker Street (shades of the later Baz Rathbone films there). It is to be titled 'Elementary' and will star Johnny Lee Miller as Holmes. Not surprisingly the BBC and Steven Moffat are not impressed..

More details here


There`s been news and rumours about Elementary for a while now, but ever since they announced JLM as Holmes, it`s been getting a lot more attention.

But actually, it`s been going on for quite a while. Apparantly, CBS actually went to the makers of Sherlock a while ago to ask for advice and information to "ensure they don`t make a rip-off", which it then turned out they`re probably doing anyway. Moffat, Gatiss and Vertue are Not Amused, to say the least. They`re not very subtle about it either XD

Put on top of that that they cast someone who has actually co-starred with Benedict Cumberbatch, and it`s getting all kinds of suspicious now.
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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2012, 04:22:43 am »

It would appear that CBS in America has latched onto the idea of a contemporary set Holmes and are bringing out their own version. In this one, however, Holmes lives in New York rather than Baker Street (shades of the later Baz Rathbone films there). It is to be titled 'Elementary' and will star Johnny Lee Miller as Holmes. Not surprisingly the BBC and Steven Moffat are not impressed..

More details here


There`s been news and rumours about Elementary for a while now, but ever since they announced JLM as Holmes, it`s been getting a lot more attention.

But actually, it`s been going on for quite a while. Apparantly, CBS actually went to the makers of Sherlock a while ago to ask for advice and information to "ensure they don`t make a rip-off", which it then turned out they`re probably doing anyway. Moffat, Gatiss and Vertue are Not Amused, to say the least. They`re not very subtle about it either XD

Put on top of that that they cast someone who has actually co-starred with Benedict Cumberbatch, and it`s getting all kinds of suspicious now.


of course its getting suspicious! someone makes a film, then someone else (gatiss and Moffat) make a tv show, then someone else comes along and says "i'm going to make a tv show but since there is already one i'm going to make a weird american version"
YOU CAN"T HAVE SHERLOCK IN AMERICA! THE POINT IS THAT HE IS BRITISH!!!!!!!

if it wasn't 'sherlock' as such but someone who had sherlock abilities, then it would be ok, but since its sherlock then it just doesn't feel right.




does anyone know who John watson will be?
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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2012, 03:42:08 pm »

of course its getting suspicious! someone makes a film, then someone else (gatiss and Moffat) make a tv show, then someone else comes along and says "i'm going to make a tv show but since there is already one i'm going to make a weird american version"
YOU CAN"T HAVE SHERLOCK IN AMERICA! THE POINT IS THAT HE IS BRITISH!!!!!!!

There were few of The Basil Rthbone Holmes films set in the US..'Sherlock Holmes In Washington' for one! And Universal also updated him to the 20th century having him battling Nazi spies and other War themed related cases.

Quote
if it wasn't 'sherlock' as such but someone who had sherlock abilities, then it would be ok, but since its sherlock then it just doesn't feel right.

Some may argue that Robert Downey Jnr's interpretation isn't 'Holmes as we know it'. Much as I love the films and the  relationship between Downey and Jude Law  RDJ doesn't   meet my mental image (or indeed Conan doyle's description) of Holmes. To many, and I include myself in that category, Jeremy Brett was the definitive Holmes.

Quote
does anyone know who John watson will be?

According to current sources:
"Speaking of co-stars, the next big piece of the puzzle for the CBS pilot will be finding Miller's Holmes a Dr. Watson. If they wanted to change it up, it would be interesting to see them cast a woman in the role..."

So as yet no one has been cast.

Just off the main topic a bit..One thing that really bugs me about various interpretations of Holmes over the years is the way he's so often depicted in a deerstalker and tweed Inverness cape! Holmes was a Victorian gentlemen (as wonderfully played by Brett) and would have only worn the deerstalker and cape when out in the country. It would never have been 'the done thing' to wear those sort of clothes in town. I guess that because The Hound Of The Baskervilles is probably the most well know and most filmed tale, set as it is in Dartmoor then, yes..Holmes would have worn the deerstalker and cape as a matter of sartorial nececessity..but never in town..

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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2012, 04:21:38 pm »

A contemporary Holmes set in New York... I am curious how they are planning to depict the Baker Street Irregulars. Probably not at all, I suspect.
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« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2012, 04:28:37 pm »

A contemporary Holmes set in New York... I am curious how they are planning to depict the Baker Street Irregulars. Probably not at all, I suspect.

Probably a street gang multi-ethnic youths (into rap)  but who strangely  have no interest in the usual gang ativities of petty crime and gang warfare and are perfectly happy to do the leg work for a well bred, affluent, clever clogs, Limey detective...
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Evelyn Adler
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« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2012, 06:35:25 pm »

Just found this in my feedreader and had to share:



via: MISTERHIPP
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2012, 03:55:17 am »

Just found this in my feedreader and had to share:



via: MISTERHIPP


he looks like a villain in that photo...... also reminds me a bit of snape.
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2012, 01:17:10 pm »

"Not surprisingly the BBC and Steven Moffat are not impressed."

Given what a mess they made of the second series of Sherlock I for one am not too bothered about their opinions on the matter.

Any US remake of Sherlock will struggle to be any worse than the sneering Holmes pastiche we had to suffer from the pen of Moffat. However, given the plaudits the second series of Sherlock seems to have garnered I seem to be a lone voice in the wilderness. As a non tv license payer (I do not need one as I only watch the BBC via iPlayer) at least I did not fund this mess.
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