What is the punk in Steampunk.

[Vagabond GentleMan]

Hmmm...here's me rovers to this:

A narrow definition allows for an individual or group to regulate steampunk. Unnacceptable.

Here's where there exists an uncomfortable balance, comarajes.

On one end, let's take radical inclusivity.  Sounds great, innit?
But let's be honest with ourselves.  Radical inclusivity means folks you DON'T WANT around you...end up around you.  NO ONE is so hearts-and-flowers high-on-life such that they really want Everyone Included.  I mean, I even done stagged chakra-aligning, crystal-gazing, navel-contemplating, bliss-ninny Hippies gettin' aggro and scrappin' fist-to-fist with Neo-Nazis, for instance.
The fact that *Prisons exist* (as straw-man an example as it might be) should be more than enough to illustrate the reality of this simple premise.

So, with respect, even with its current broad definition, Steampunk....IS...defined enough for a group, comprised of individuals, to regulate Steampunk.  And it IS acceptable.  You, gentle Esquire, and many others HAVE accepted it.  You ARE regulating it, RIGHT NOW, by essentially saying "Let's not narrow the definition any further". 
Brother, that's. a. fact. >shrugs<

On the other end is radical exclusivity.  Cliquish, elitist, in-crowd mentality.  I don't think I have to rant much about how mondongo-rank that humbug be in nigh all cases.

So it ends up being about where we as individuals and where y'all as a community decide to mark the line in that ocean of grey between those two foolish poles.

My bottom line is simply this:  The definition is too broad for me.  I don't like it, it neither makes me comfortable nor proud. 
So rather than Howl in Impotent Indignance about how the definition SHOULD be narrowed, I choose rather to not-so-subtle-like slip out sideways.  I like Steampunk, but I ain't a Steampunk.  I don't reckon none of my benen posse are neither, though a grip of us are on this forum, are attending Steampunk events, are organizing Steampunk meet-ups (I did so locally myself JUST yesterday >SMH<), and what have you.

Paradoxical truth be told, many of the doxies and coves what think and live like myself and my droogs, them of us what're radical "Life-Stylers", have with some regularity ended up feeling alienated and cold-shouldered BY the folks on this Forum what are comfortable with the currently-accepted broad definition.  And yes, we've lost many good folk FROM this forum to the very same 'non-regulated and unacceptable' but inherent regulation mentioned above.  Without intending any personal accusation (cuz, well, I LIKE the Esq. from way back in the day, and APPRECIATE his thoughts, and have seen that he's nigh always been a TRUE and decent gent), there IS and HAS BEEN a mentality amongst many here with the underlying voice that quoth: "How dare you suggest Steampunk should be more than what it is?!?  Then those of us who do this as a joke or a fad couldn't play your reindeer games anymore.  So shut your over-serious, 'this actually means something deep, philosophical, political, cultural, and life-long to me' mouth or you can't play OUR reindeer games any more..."

And to many (but not all) of us over on this side of the steam-engine train-tracks, that is the rubbish what's unacceptable.  So we're excluded, or we leave, or we just shut up.  Majority rules, and all that. >shrugs yet again<

Inclusive?  Hmmm....

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

You ARE regulating it, RIGHT NOW, by essentially saying "Let's not narrow the definition any further". 

Precisely. Couldn't say it better myself.

[Rockula]

'What Is The Punk In Steampunk?'

Well, it's me isn't it.

[Augustus Longeye]

Rockula, you've become the elephant in the room!
~Longeye~

[Fairman Rogers]

Vagabond GentleMan -

You said earlier that you wished steampunk were more of a counterculture movement.  However, keep in mind that counterculture movements themselves are often fragmented and poorly-defined, but in many ways that is their strength.  Social norms are rigid, which is why counterculture MUST be loose.  Throughout history, counterculture movements that are controlled by ideologues are more likely to fail than those that are organically defined.

Now, the problem that we're really running into here is one of association.  It's not that Vagabond and his mates can't call themselves steampunks, it's that they don't want anyone hearing them use that term to then assume things about them that are not true.  Meanwhile, some other steampunks might be worried about the opposite happening.  Vagabond has already resolved this impasse by removing himself from the word itself.  This happens all the time - new terminology springs up as an attempt to clarify distinctions between splinter groups.

So, in an attempt to mediate somewhat, I will point out that Vagabond is technically correct that the concept of "no one true steampunk" is itself a definition, and he is free to dissociate himself from that definition.  However, other people are also welcome to suggest that there is room in steampunk for those LIKE Vagabond who want more counterculture.  But you can't force anyone into it.  Everyone gets to define themselves.

How's that?  Reasonable? 

[Vagabond GentleMan]

Vagabond GentleMan -

You said earlier that you wished steampunk were more of a counterculture movement.  However, keep in mind that counterculture movements themselves are often fragmented and poorly-defined, but in many ways that is their strength.  Social norms are rigid, which is why counterculture MUST be loose.  Throughout history, counterculture movements that are controlled by ideologues are more likely to fail than those that are organically defined.

Shades of grey: Of which countercultures do you speak?
When I think of reasonably recent, reasonably successful Sub-cultures or countercultures, I think 1) Hippies. 2) Punks. 3) Goths.

And with all of these, when a New York hippy traveled to San Francisco, they pretty much found that the West Coast hippies had the same basic socio-cultural mores and the same basic ethos.
When a LA punk traveled to Baltimore to hit up a Punk show, they found that though there might be some superficial differences in self-presentation or philosophy, they knew the Eastern punks were gonna 'be about' the same sorts of things.  Common interests, lifestyles, values.
When a goth from Seattle goes to a Goth club in New Orleans, same deal.  They know they'll be surrounded by 'folks like them'.

This ain't so with Steampunk.  And that is my fundamental issue.  I cannot feel like I'm part of a genuine Community if when I go to a Steampunk Convention or something like that, I feel like a wolf surrounded by sheep in wolves' clothing.  Or vice versa, pick yer favorite animals...

"If it ain't fun, you're doing something wrong".  So, I was doing something wrong.  Thus:

 I will point out that Vagabond is technically correct that the concept of "no one true steampunk" is itself a definition, and he is free to dissociate himself from that definition.

La!

  However, other people are also welcome to suggest that there is room in steampunk for those LIKE Vagabond who want more counterculture.  But you can't force anyone into it.  Everyone gets to define themselves.

How's that?  Reasonable? 

Brother, it SOUNDS so damn reasonable, innit?   Well done!

Yet, optimistic (and wise) philosophy aside, it is STILL true that the fact is that, as I said above, those of us (Yanks) on the Radical/Countercultural side HAVE historically ended up backing off or backing OUT of the forum because of discomfort vis a vis having OUR 'definition' of Steampunk to a good degree rejected...via accusations (often subtle or polite, thank you) of elitism, exclusivity, 'theft' (the whole "Steampunk as a term was invented, tongue-in-cheek, for literary purposes, therefore your Countercultural approach is wrong"...), etc.

So I suppose the question remains:  Is there really any middle ground?  And not in terms of philosophy, not for the sake of 'getting along', but real, pragmatic, genuine, middle ground where everyone...really...gets what they want whilst sharing the "Steampunk" term...

I'm lacking in faith, obviously.

I still likes being on this here forum tho!  Even those of ya with whom I don't agree, I tend to STILL really like... 
...that coming from a dedicated misanthrope... 

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

I think it could be articulated this way: saying "steampunk must include everyone" means we can never say anything that anyone could take issue with, which means we can't say anything of import. That therefore excludes people that care a lot about social, cultural, political issues.

Some people want a movement that stands for something, and when those people are shut down, the community basically says "we stand for NOT standing for anything".

[Lord Wraste]

I done been name dropped! Means I have to say something at least.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tinker:  Thou art the wisest, I've always felt.  Having met you physog-to-physog, and knowing you certainly keep the punk in steampunk on a personal level (at least by my reckoning), I'll salute you now as I always have.

And whatever you and yer limey dead-rabbits are doing in Jolly Old to have manifested being such a Splendid and commanding crew, y'all must be doing it right...Praises, and further salutations.  At the risk of finding myself in the 8th circle of Hell, I have to feel you were a firm part of the initial spearhead, and that's dead bangup!

I'm awful fond of ya, Unkle Tinker... 

Von Corax:  >Big Grin<  You're a whipster, I'll give ya that!  But I reckon you got me dead wrong...
First off, I ain't offended, and could possibly be mistaken, but I gleaned from your words that perhaps you felt *I* was a newcomer?  Ask round, that just ain't so.  But no worries!

So, lemme start by saying:  I spoke of my hope regarding Steampunk becoming a Grand Countercultural Movement...YOU mentioned politics...now perhaps one couldst argue that Culture (and thus counter-culture) and Politics are inherently linked, but the fact remains, I spoke specifically of culture, not politics.

However, if we were speaking of politics (which we won't, right?  For it's rather bad form round here), there have certainly been, over the course of the history of this forum and other Steampunk forums, QUITE aggressive arguments for the 'proper' steampunk socio-political approach, and neither have they been castigated nor ignored.  As long as their arguments maintained a modicum of respect and decorum, and as long as their arguments were intelligent and well-supported, they have most absolutely been taken seriously and treated with respect.

You said:
"Steampunk simply is (if you'll forgive the aphorism), but each of us is free to express Steampunk according to our own tastes, abilities and personal philosophies. If you believe your personal Steampunk should make a social statement, it is your responsibility, and yours alone, to make it so."

Yes, I believe I acknowledged this, i.e. the "'Steampunk is what you want it to be' paradigm that won't shift."
It seems frankly absurd to me to feel like an individual can HAVE a 'personal Steampunk' that can, as an individual, make a social statement...
If you took the word 'Steampunk' out of that sentence, however, it would make quite a lot of sense.  Which is essentially how I've come to feel, by extrapolation.  I'm making a social statement.  I'm an individual.  I am....NOT...a Steampunk.
Simply labeling myself a 'Counterculturalist' is enough.  Or "Bohemian" or whatever similar moneker (1850's Rogue's Lexicon sp.) illustrates best the same sentiment.
Adding 'Steampunk' on there as a descriptive adjective brings to the 'observer's' mind any number of connotations I don't appreciate and don't want said 'observer' to tag onto my chant.
At least here in the States...let me make that disclaimer; for, as Tinker observed, this "Steampunk 'Halloween Party'" jawnt is dead disappointing.

You said:
"I have seen in Steampunk a far more subtle social influence than in any high-minded social movement-to-agenda. As I see it, our best course for improving the world is to quietly seduce and subvert the society which surrounds us — to lead people without making them feel led."

Hmmm...with humor and a grin, me bene cove, don't double-speak lawyerese put words in my mouth...I hope you didn't feel that my post a few days ago indicated I was interested in some 'high-minded social movement-to-agenda'....far from it!
I'm working class, I'm a simple man, I want little more than a local gang of rogues what think like me.  I want similar gangs of rogues in pockets round the Nation such that we can get together when we travel.
Ya know, like pretty much any other subculture.
What I don't appreciate is that it just ain't like that.  My local rum-togged topper-occupying coveys...well, we all got each other down close.  But when we've traveled, we find Steampunks elsewhere to be FAR from kindred spirits. 

I've met a GREAT number of straight optime no. 1 folks on this forum.  I met some of my BEST friends on this forum.  I'm back on this forum, and shall continue to be, to continue rallying the local Rabbits....but BOTH DC Guild-member Wraste and I are dead-set on 'keeping out the plebes'. So, Steampunk has given me some great things...but ultimately, I fail to see the value of the larger 'community' where I can't be sure that past the 'costume-and-books' club, I ain't gwan be alienated just as much as if I walked into the local gentrified Boozhie top 40's club!

And hey, brother, I GET the whole socio-cultural subtle-influence termite-anarchy thing...AND appreciate it.  Ultimately, y'all are who really make progress.  But please don't discredit the value of we, the Radicals...we serve our purpose as well, as we always have.  So, bully for you!  But it just ain't my style.  Thus, again, I'll be me, you can have Steampunk, and we'll call it square.

Play:  Good point, brother.  Nothing wrong with play.  But neither is there anything wrong with believing that once you're no longer a child, one should put away childish things.  Look, I really AIN'T judging.  To all, do what you want if it moves your spirit.  But let me have my opinion, too, feel me?
And my opinion is that grown-folk play grown-folk games.  >shrugs<
Apologies if anyone finds that offensive.

And yes, comrade, a firm handshake is appreciated.  I LIKED your post.  You're a smart one, and you back up your opinions well.  Always respected, that.... 

Holla!

I told Tinker, the one time I was fortunate to meet him face to face, that I am not Steampunk. I never really have been. Oh I wanted to be, but I never really hit it. So I'm content with my somewhat Bohemian/Punk/Alt/Goth/Whatever that I do when I feel like getting fancied up. I go to Steampunk meet-ups for the feeling of community. I do think that, if it is as Tinker describes, if we had a movement similar to Europe's then I would feel more inclined to participate. But my main complaint about the last big event I went to, Steampunk World's Fair II, was that it no longer felt like a festival for Steampunks but a steampunk themed convention. I felt so achingly out of place. The few people I knew, from the real world and online, I wanted to talk to but I felt such a disconnect that it threw off my entire weekend. This is my issue, I know, but that's how I've felt quite a bit lately.

"Keepin' the Plebes out" may sound harsh, but Americans in my experience tend to be either passive-aggressive or extremely clique-ish when it comes to including people and trying to be polite. If one is attempting to be inclusive and New Guy A (NGA) is a pompous ass, then NGA is tolerated because it would be rude to do otherwise. If one's group is more of a clique then NGA never even gets the chance to be an ass. Me? I want a happy middle where I can tell NGA to piss off if he's being an ass. But Heaven Forfend you do that. The other more inclusive people will chide you for your callousness. "NGA was just expressing himself!" they will say. Expressing himself by being an ass, perhaps.

Gosh, so many erudite and well worded replies I almost feel that my little ten penn'orth is somewhat redundant!

As I think that I have said before elsewhere on the forum, steampunk to me is a blend of taking the very best aspects of the past and applying them in a modern context.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not wanting to bring back workhouses but I think that many of the standards held back then; good manners being the main one in addition to the 'can do' attitude that was pivotal in the Victorian period being a time for technological advancement and social change is pretty core to my idea of steampunk.  So that's the steam and now for the punk!

To me the word 'punk' signifies a rebellious culture and what in this day and age is more rebellious and against the norm than being polite, courteous and respectful, eschewing the disposable material culture that has most of us in its grasp in favour of the 'built to last' and generally bucking the trend in the nicest possible way!

I am not a cosplayer, I don't object to cosplay and I believe that people should be free to enjoy themselves howsoever they please but I do find the term slightly objectionable when applied to myself in this context as I am not a cosplayer, I do not play at this, this is who I am. (although I will admit that dressing up with a raygun is terribly fun once in a while but it isn't central to my steampunk leanings).

I held these views before I discovered steampunk as a genre and a cultural scene but I have never felt so at home since I made that discovery.  What I also love about UK steampunk is its inclusivity and welcoming nature and that is the one central tenet of steampunk that I most definitely could not be without.

I agree with much of this, but there's still a bit I feel the need to expand upon.

When you say, "steampunk to me is a blend of taking the very best aspects of the past and applying them in a modern context." it reminds me of the Society for Creative Anachronisms (SCA). "The Best of the Middle Ages" is how they coin it. It's an interesting idea and not without merit. The issue becomes one of execution. In the SCA you have the authenticity mavens and the party households and the people just trying to enjoy their fantasy in between. Even though the SCA has existed for over 40 years there are still hot and angry debates over what it is or should be. That works for them. On their fun weekend jaunts. It is, among other varied reasons, why I left the SCA behind.

To put a finer point on it. What I am is a lifestyler. I stopped hitting the Goth scene because of the excessive drama that permeated the groups that I interacted with. I still wear lipstick and copious amounts of black, but I don't call myself Goth because I want nothing to do with other people's drama.

Lack of drama is what pulled me to Steampunk in the first place. The ability to politely state to someone when you disagreed or felt that their conduct was out of line. I love that. But, for me, that really only exists here and with my actual circle of friends. At gatherings outside of that I've found the scene wanting.

I think it could be articulated this way: saying "steampunk must include everyone" means we can never say anything that anyone could take issue with, which means we can't say anything of import. That therefore excludes people that care a lot about social, cultural, political issues.

Some people want a movement that stands for something, and when those people are shut down, the community basically says "we stand for NOT standing for anything".

Succinct. I want to stand for being polite, creative, and dead sexy. Not necessarily in that order.

[TimeTinker]

Well Gabe it is good to see you have been prodded into posting...   I remember the conversation well by the way.

My fears about the World's Faire started with Whisper's announcement that the "Theme for 2011 is the 1920s".   Even though this was then withdrawn I could see the writing on the wall as it were so I did not bother to attend.

I am coming over to Anachrocon in Atlanta in the spring and since this has a wider remit than just steampunk I am interested to see how things pan out.

Your description of the SPWF as a convention rather than a festival mirrors our own development.  We started as a "convivial" or friendly convention.  Now we are a full blown festival and proud of it.

We use our drive for inclusivity deliberately to try and avoid the negatives you mention about passive aggression and cliques etc but also the pomposity.  When someone starts being aggressive or controlling or whining etc then you usually find an established steampunk steps up and gently but firmly says - "actually we don't do that."

It is possible to be inclusive but also to draw boundaries on behaviour - the famous one rule "Be nice to one another" does it all but this is a rule that has to be promoted and encouraged.  Somebody being a pompous ass should be challenged.  This is not about a lack of inclusivity this is about them breaking the one rule.

I think it could be articulated this way: saying "steampunk must include everyone" means we can never say anything that anyone could take issue with, which means we can't say anything of import. That therefore excludes people that care a lot about social, cultural, political issues.

Some people want a movement that stands for something, and when those people are shut down, the community basically says "we stand for NOT standing for anything".

With all due respect Vorpal Bandersnatch you are talking absolute twaddle.  Inclusivity does not have to equal beige.  Of course people can have views and care etc.  Of course people can promote them etc.  Of course people can stand up for things.  Steampunk as I know it is full of people with their own ideas about cultural, social and political issues. 

We do however have an understanding.  As a steampunk you speak for yourself and associates.  You cannot speak for all steampunks.  Some people want steampunk to represent a particular political view etc  but they do not have this right.  We cannot compel or require others to share our political views.

Do not equate the fact that politics is banned on these boards with politics not existing in steampunk.  Steampunks hold views etc and can promote them in the wider world.  We just do not promote them here on Brassgoggles since experience has shown this descends into flame wars and we simply prefer not to have flamewars HERE.

What is my main point?

Inclusivity does not mean we have to agree with everyone.   Inclusivity means anyone can approach the world of steampunk.    The way to encourage steampunk to mean something is to LEAD BY EXAMPLE not require people to follow.

I am proud to consider Lord Wraste and Vagabond Gentleman as friends (and indeed there was a fourth to our circle in the form of Utini)  We may not all share the same political views.  We do not have the same ideals or aims.  What we share is a bond which is deeper and stronger.  We respect each other as individuals. 

Perhaps this is where inclusivity should be heading? 

[Miss Calendula Malmesbury]

When you say, "steampunk to me is a blend of taking the very best aspects of the past and applying them in a modern context." it reminds me of the Society for Creative Anachronisms (SCA). "The Best of the Middle Ages" is how they coin it. It's an interesting idea and not without merit. The issue becomes one of execution. In the SCA you have the authenticity mavens and the party households and the people just trying to enjoy their fantasy in between. Even though the SCA has existed for over 40 years there are still hot and angry debates over what it is or should be. That works for them. On their fun weekend jaunts. It is, among other varied reasons, why I left the SCA behind.

I understand how you may think my statement sounds, but from my own experience of the SCA I would say that they have a slightly different take on things to myself.  I will stand corrected on this as my own experience of this is limited to the SCA members that I have met here in the UK but the SCA seems to be a synthesis of mainly medieval book and movie based fantasy (medieval literature included) applied in a re-enactment/cosplay type context.   Again it seems quite an inclusive group with people running about in bridesmaids dresses with flower garlands in their heads to people who take time to fashion completely authentic costume.  That however wasn't what I intended my statement to infer.  What I mean is to take realistic, liveable, known, documented and (until recently) practiced values and apply them to my modern life rather than for my life to be a conscious re-enactment of pseudo-victorian (or any other period in history) society.  I personally think that this can only add positively to my modern life; I don't 'play act', I really do strive to be polite, courteous and respectable and when I do something, I do it because I think that is what should be done rather than trying to act in a certain way.  I can't however say that I have Victorian values because I do not, however some of my values would likely be recognised as laudable by a 'respectable' Victorian!

This is my lifestyle, as I have said before.  The past has many horrors in it which should be learned from but there is much positivity in social history that can still be applied successfully in a modern context to make life a little better.

I hope that I have cleared things up, or have I just confused things more?!
Miss C

[Vorpal Bandersnatch]

I think it could be articulated this way: saying "steampunk must include everyone" means we can never say anything that anyone could take issue with, which means we can't say anything of import. That therefore excludes people that care a lot about social, cultural, political issues.

Some people want a movement that stands for something, and when those people are shut down, the community basically says "we stand for NOT standing for anything".

With all due respect Vorpal Bandersnatch you are talking absolute twaddle.  Inclusivity does not have to equal beige.  Of course people can have views and care etc.  Of course people can promote them etc.  Of course people can stand up for things.  Steampunk as I know it is full of people with their own ideas about cultural, social and political issues. 

I must respectfully disagree. Inclusivity in and of itself is something worth pursuing, but it becomes problematic if it is prioritized above all else. I've made numerous attempts to talk about what steampunk is here - not with the desire to regulate it or control it (I'm hardly of enough consequence to do that even if I wanted to) but because I think it is a worthwhile process to consider what steampunk is, what it actually says about the world, and figure out the intellectual meat that drives this thing. And, I look at it mainly in a descriptive sense - what are people writing about, what are people building, what makes this thing tick? Isn't that something inherently in line with the maker ethic? Figure out how a thing works, and also how it doesn't work? This isn't saying what steampunk ought to be, except in the sense that analyzing history would suggest a path for the future. However, even that attempt to assess the movement as an observer and understand its internal workings has met with stringent resistance on this board.

If we never say "this is not steampunk", then everything that wants to sell itself as steampunk is - the terminology becomes meaningless. If I can't say what a dog isn't, then I don't really know what a dog is.

This attitude does indeed exclude serious-minded steampunk enthusiasts. I've no desire to tell someone that they can't be a part of the community, and I never have. If they are interested in being a part of it, chances are, that indicates some level of commitment to the various themes and values that the community espouses (which we do whether we talk about it or not). But the wish for inclusivity has gotten so overblown that it has precluded other valuable pursuits, on the off chance that it would exclude someone.

Another justification for articulating a philosophy for steampunk: What if individuals come along that DO warp steampunk, and DO make a cliquey thing where people mock the newbies and exclude valid participants? I honestly think the only defense against that is being clear and deliberate about what steampunk IS and what it isn't - that process in and of itself can be inclusive, because I can look at a set of values and say - I like that, I want to be part of that - and one of the shared values could even BE "if you agree with most of these or at least think they're interesting, consider yourself steampunk".

There's so much to gain by being deliberate about how we choose to identify ourselves, and so much to lose by being ambiguous and noncommittal. I, for one, think it is a problem that VG and others are rescinding their participation in this board because of it. It seems to me that we could learn something from listening to what he's saying.

TL;DR - Inclusivity should be one of our values, but it ends up driving people away if it is the only explicit value, thus being self-contradictory.

[Vagabond GentleMan]

Truth be told, I'm more and more intuitively grasping that there is some fairly dramatic difference between the ways Steampunk as a community has developed in the UK vs. here in the States.

I'm starting to feel like because Tinker has been over here and seen this mess, he has an inkling of how weakly "we've" done it Stateside.  He has the inkling, and is enough for him to know that, much like my own sentiment, it isn't WORTH traveling for.

I'm feeling that the way they've worked it, the way it exists, the way the inclusivity has been managed, still functions to 'keep the plebes out'...but in a non-elitist way.

Our disadvantage stateside is that the US is mucking gargantuan.  I'm fairly sure that with some effort and organization, Wraste, the Guild of DC, and myself could (and to some degree have) accomplish(ed) the same thing within the DC metro area...perhaps take over a couple of states...perhaps an area as large as the UK...

But that's FAR FAR from accomplishing it on this continent-spanning Nation...
The culture clash is assuredly less dramatic for myself and Wraste when we've traveled across a good number of states to hit SPWF...but I think perhaps the situation is similar.

Tinker has his crew in the UK, they're all individuals, but 'of a mind' where it counts.

Now, his crew is massive now...like an SP army...

But Wraste, Maj Hathoway and his entourage, myself, and this DC Guild....well, we's a crew too...all individuals, but 'of a mind' where it counts!

When Wraste and I traveled up over state after state, and saw what the U.S. SP collective community was doing with our 'precious Steampunk Baby', we were disappointed, unhappy, alienated, and yeah, indignant, self-righteous, and judgmental.

When Wraste went the second year and didn't have me with him to be that OTHER cranky old muppet what sits in the balcony and heckles the Muppet Show (you know, to bring humor to our discomfort and thus make it enjoyable) he really felt he wasted his time.

So, let me actually have a point:
We ought maybe to consider that when we talk Inclusivity, them Lime-Juicers and us Yankee Doodle Dandies might be speaking different things.
They GOT their crew all unified.  They can pride themselves on their inclusivity because the folks on their island might just have a more unified understanding of what 'Steampunk' means, culturally.  It's the vibes what I'm feeling off Tinker, anyhoo.

WE do NOT.  The Guild of DC has a good idea as to what Steampunk means HERE.
The concept that the Jersey (SPWF) and surrounding area SP's have, for instance, just plain ain't the same, and it's different enough from what we DC rogues are doing such that it can't HELP but create an us vs. them mentality.
They, fundamentally, AIN'T doing what we're doing.  They AIN'T birds of our feathers.  We AIN'T playing the same sport, but as we're all flying colors under the Steampunk Banner, we're still using the same stadium.

So of course, if we're using different rulebooks for different sports on the same field...well, there's gwan be buttings-of-noggins.

I am NOT being succinct...in essence, I don't think the UK Steampunks are experiencing the same problems we US SP's are...or at least not to the degree...so when they side with the inclusivity argument, they're doing so from the POV of their own significantly more unified socio-cultural perspective.
The gravity of this issue in the US is greater, I feel, than most on the other side of the Atlantic understand...

[Dr Fidelius]

Okay. But I, like many others here, fail to see why divergent ideas across a large area is seen as a bad thing. I do not expect Steampunks in the Southwest to do the same things as New England Steampunks. I do not expect an event thrown in Chicago to have the same "look and feel" as one in Orlando.

I see regional variations as a source of strength, not weakness, in the American Steampunk Community, and I will accept there being a great number of diletantes, amateurs and hangers-on for every clear-eyed visionary. Life is messy.

[Lord Wraste]

Spoiler: From Miss Calendula Malmesbury (click to show/hide)

When you say, "steampunk to me is a blend of taking the very best aspects of the past and applying them in a modern context." it reminds me of the Society for Creative Anachronisms (SCA). "The Best of the Middle Ages" is how they coin it. It's an interesting idea and not without merit. The issue becomes one of execution. In the SCA you have the authenticity mavens and the party households and the people just trying to enjoy their fantasy in between. Even though the SCA has existed for over 40 years there are still hot and angry debates over what it is or should be. That works for them. On their fun weekend jaunts. It is, among other varied reasons, why I left the SCA behind.

I understand how you may think my statement sounds, but from my own experience of the SCA I would say that they have a slightly different take on things to myself.  I will stand corrected on this as my own experience of this is limited to the SCA members that I have met here in the UK but the SCA seems to be a synthesis of mainly medieval book and movie based fantasy (medieval literature included) applied in a re-enactment/cosplay type context.   Again it seems quite an inclusive group with people running about in bridesmaids dresses with flower garlands in their heads to people who take time to fashion completely authentic costume.  That however wasn't what I intended my statement to infer.  What I mean is to take realistic, liveable, known, documented and (until recently) practiced values and apply them to my modern life rather than for my life to be a conscious re-enactment of pseudo-victorian (or any other period in history) society.  I personally think that this can only add positively to my modern life; I don't 'play act', I really do strive to be polite, courteous and respectable and when I do something, I do it because I think that is what should be done rather than trying to act in a certain way.  I can't however say that I have Victorian values because I do not, however some of my values would likely be recognised as laudable by a 'respectable' Victorian!

This is my lifestyle, as I have said before.  The past has many horrors in it which should be learned from but there is much positivity in social history that can still be applied successfully in a modern context to make life a little better.

I hope that I have cleared things up, or have I just confused things more?!
Miss C

Please, allow me a moment to apologize. I'm the one that was unclear. I was just using your statement as a jumping off point because it reminded me of the example I gave.

I very much agree with the sentiment you are sharing.

Tinker:

We use our drive for inclusivity deliberately to try and avoid the negatives you mention about passive aggression and cliques etc but also the pomposity.  When someone starts being aggressive or controlling or whining etc then you usually find an established steampunk steps up and gently but firmly says - "actually we don't do that."

It is possible to be inclusive but also to draw boundaries on behaviour - the famous one rule "Be nice to one another" does it all but this is a rule that has to be promoted and encouraged.  Somebody being a pompous ass should be challenged.  This is not about a lack of inclusivity this is about them breaking the one rule.

The problem that I have encountered (and that is key: "I have encountered") is that attempting to politely correct the pomposity is sometime taken as an attempt to control and be pompous one's self.

Speaking specifically: I have found that Steampunk in my local area, as a community, no longer means much to me. I find more like-minded people here on on this forum than I do wandering through the club or con or reenactment scene. It's why I'm still here despite the fact that I've become more of a lurker these days. I'm interested in meeting like minded, creative people. I stay here because those people are here.

In a fashion I'd say that it's our own fault that we don't have a more solidified Steampunk presence here. It takes initiative to create something like a community. We started strong but it petered out. I don't know why, beyond some minor specifics that probably only enhanced the real reasons. I'm sure I could make excuses, but really?

People put together outings. The Chrononaut's Winter Stroll, The Nordic One's pick-nick gatherings. I've not attended any of these and I could. In fact I may in hopes that they will be populated with like-minded people that are interested in a festival atmosphere and not a convention.

But I digress as I'm rambling. Sorry.

Dr. Fidelius,
I don't actually see divergence as a bad thing. I like the mix-up of ideas. I'm just.... Not into it right now? I'm not sure how to put it, I just wanted to say that I don't disagree with you.

[Dr Fidelius]

No worries my friend. I actually have no idea what occurs at a Steampunk Convention as I have not attended one. I do find I like most of the folks who attend local Connecticut "Steampunk" events, but that could be because I've started drinking again.

I try not to judge another person's "steampunkiness" based on their participation at authorized events.

[Vagabond GentleMan]

Eh.

To be completely honest, I could just be howling at the moon here.

When VG's life is bene, he probably has a small and close-knit crew of like-minded coves and doxies and we all feel some degree of Unity for the simple fact that we're too outlandish to fit in anywhere.

But there ain't never been a Subculture, Counterculture, or more widespread community that ever felt like home.  Just grey shades of alienation.

Wraste?  Myself?  My Crew?

We's aliens.  Drop-dead sexy monsters.  I dig a little more Magenta and Old Orchid, Wraste prefers Eggplant.  No accounting for taste...
Overall, tho, it more or less explains it.  

'Sides.  Don't reckon I wanna argue with a Miskatonic U prof...  
Still rock my Miskatonic U College T-shirt on occasion, meself...

[Siliconous Skumins]

Vagabond GentleMan, you may not identify yourself as steampunk anymore, but I personally consider you and Lord Wraste as such. I've been on this forum for a while now, and I have seen many come and go. While it is true to some extent that "everyone has their own interpretation of steampunk", I believe that the differing views they express only enhance the culture we call steampunk. Hopefully we learn from each other, maybe even change or adapt our own personal views when provided with an alternative view or when somebody asks "what if..." - this is how a community changes and grows. Without this it would simply stagnate and die.

You are an integral and valuable part of our community, regardless of the many differing world views we all have. There is always some common ground, and maybe even some knowledge to be gained by all sides.  The world is not going to change if somebody doesn't say "Hey, lets change this", it may not be overnight, but if the idea has value, it will. Eventually. 

You may be an individual, but you are just as much a steampunk individual as anybody else.

(hope this is coherent, I haven't slept in the past 24hrs and I'm getting a little bit flaky...)

SS

[Vagabond GentleMan]

Damn, Admiral...you and Tinker done dropped some whids on this thread gone choked me up a bit...

Thanks, brethren...honest Injun...

 

[TimeTinker]

The comment on point of view is most valid gentlemen.

I have had the great priveledge of experiencing steampunk in the UK, US and Canada.  I look forward to events in Spain later this year and France early next.

In the UK we have the HUGE advantage of geographical proximity.   Steampunks meet up with their "bene coves" weekly.  The geographical groupings overlap and thus ideas, concepts, behavioural codes etc all are shared rapidly.   We still get people who are not part of the wider scene and it is common to observe they have different approaches and attitudes. As they become involved in the wider scene then social norming leads them to adopt the one rule etc.

Social norming is a hugely powerful effect.  NO MOVEMENT works by being a fully formed statement that people join and adhere to.  What happens is people begin to invest in a social group and then adopt the prevailling norms.  That is why I say people should not state what steampunk SHOULD be instead they should lead by example and steampunk WILL be.  (This is why I cannot accept your arguments as definitive Vorpal - sorry.)

Of course if people are not able to interact socially on a face to face basis then social norming cannot take place.  Steampunk in the US is clearly hampered by geography etc. (Hence your reasoning is valid Vorpal but I still disagree with what you require as a solution - in my mind the solution should still be to lead by example.)

Bottom line - we create a community.  It's members may have different views etc.  If we can maintain the one rule then we can still remain one community.  We are simply a community of individuals.

[Ottens]

My thoughts, also posted at The Gatehouse blog...

If "steampunk" means different things to different people in different places, it complicates the notion of there being a steampunk “movement” that’s held together by common values.

There may be a majority of steampunk enthusiasts who share a do-it-yourself ethos and an appreciation of nineteenth century style and manners but does that constitute a movement? Does it mean that people who aren’t makers aren’t steampunks? Does it mean that people who like reading steampunk novels but don’t care to dress up in Victorian costume aren’t steampunk enough?

When steampunk is a rather different phenomenon in one part of the world than it is in another, it may be presumptuous to speak of a “movement” and better to think of it as a “style” instead?

[Dr Fidelius]

I prefer "community" to "movement" to describe us as a group. Movement implies a common direction and common goals rather than a common interest.

[andrew craven]

Aesthetically, Steampunk is like a spider graph with its various arms of attached design. There is a common aesthetical value, but the general aesthetic itself is a movement of art and design. For it to function, the community is but a by product of its progress!?

[von Corax]

I prefer "community" to "movement" to describe us as a group. Movement implies a common direction and common goals rather than a common interest.

Hear, hear, Dr. Fidelius. We do not have a common goal; we do have a diverse collection of overlapping, interrelated and complementary interests, as does any stable community.

Mr. GentleMan: Indeed, I am quite aware that your artistically-inked self has been with us for some time. I was speaking of newcomers in general (as we all were, once) and of several specific individuals whose initial misinterpretation of our culture required an explanation of the distinction between "civility" and "submissiveness." (TimeTinker, I thank you for the term "social norming." I had begun to turn my argument in that direction, but was brought up short by the insufficiency of my vocabulary.)

In any case, Mr. GentleMan, while you may choose to eschew the label "Steampunk," I believe you have established a place for yourself in our community, and would be missed were you to depart for good. Every community needs a friendly rabble-rouser or two; it helps keep the place aired out.

Although surely as grown-ups we can each determine for ourselves what constitutes "grown-up games."

[Vagabond GentleMan]

(TimeTinker, I thank you for the term "social norming." I had begun to turn my argument in that direction, but was brought up short by the insufficiency of my vocabulary.)

In any case, Mr. GentleMan, while you may choose to eschew the label "Steampunk," I believe you have established a place for yourself in our community, and would be missed were you to depart for good. Every community needs a friendly rabble-rouser or two; it helps keep the place aired out.

Although surely as grown-ups we can each determine for ourselves what constitutes "grown-up games."

1)  'Movement' it ain't (tho it could be, if 'we' chose), 'community' it be (demonstrably, e.g. BG), PLEASE let's not decide to simply call it a 'style'! >shudders<

2) Social Norming:  Agreed.  All my ramblings made succinct by Tinker:  "Social Norming:  Do you have it or not in your regional SP community?"

3)  You ARE right, Corax...I carved out a niche here...my chest puffs w a little (admittedly Sophomoric) pride just a little at being referred to as a "Rabble Rouser" (thanks, brother!  ....BIG grins...).  And thanks for having me, brethren!

4)  *Laughing* at the statement about being grown allows us to decide as individuals what 'grown-up games' are!  I reckon that's a microcosm of this whole thread's back-and-forth!  Have we decided as a community to be inclusive and accept that everyone's personal definition or interpretation of 'grown-up games' is valid?  Or shall we narrow the definition of 'grown up games'?

Well, y'all know where I stand on THAT too, I reckon!  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!       

[andrew craven]

1)  'Movement' it ain't (tho it could be, if 'we' chose), 'community' it be (demonstrably, e.g. BG), PLEASE let's not decide to simply call it a 'style'! >shudders<

History tells us that Impressionism (e.g) was a movement. It was spontaneious and the style furthered between Monet and Renoir that did revolutionise the way we see modern art. On the side of this one truth, when we look at styles of art throughout history, especially from the Rennaisance to present, we see movements...a shift in styles. With this in mind, how do we "Move" Steampunk. Of course it is a movement, no matter how spontaneious some of you are with it! If it didnt move...what is the point?

 Of course it is a movement...Steampunk is a subculture that incubates ideas collectively. And its aesthetic is organic and is alive and is moving! Hence...steampunk is an art movement my dear friends!