The Steampunk Forum at Brass Goggles
October 22, 2017, 12:22:48 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Brassgoggles.co.uk - The Lighter Side Of Steampunk, follow @brasstech for forum technical problems & updates.
 
   Home   Blog Help Rules Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: PunkPunk  (Read 974 times)
19th Century Space Pilot
Snr. Officer
****
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Cererean
WWW
« on: August 07, 2010, 10:42:50 pm »

I apologise if this is in the wrong forum, but bear with me for a second or thousand...

As with all things, there is a TV Tropes page on it which may be of interest - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunkPunk. However, it doesn't go into the depth I would like to delve into, nor does it place them on a timeline based on closeness to current events.

It is my belief that we can classify such genres and era's based on, among other things, computing methods, power generation, and the general mood of society. Obviously, there is going to be some overlap - for example the Greeks developed mechanical computing long before Babbage was born - and it is by the strength of particular traits that we can define a setting or era as steampunk, cyberpunk etc.

To give an example, the Internal Combustion engine is undeniably Dieselpunk, and nuclear power Atompunk, while neural implants make an odd fit anywhere other than cyberpunk. Yet, here we are, using all three to a degree. There are particular clothing styles which fit into steampunk and would, again, be out of place in a cyberpunk novel, unless it be expressly a dress party etc. A story can be steampunk yet have heavy dieselpunk influences; a turning point is eventually reached when there is more diesel than steam and it pitches, headfirst, into the 40's.

So, I again wish to enlist the help of Brassgoggles in classifying such traits.
Logged

Now for some shameless self promotion... http://needsmoremarshmallows.blogspot.co.uk/

 - Aetheric Aviatrix
arcwelder
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United States United States


Reverse the polarity!


« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2010, 11:09:36 pm »

Ah. I had a bit of a problem understanding your post, but after checking the link I may have spotted the problem. What you need to understand is that a lot of the stuff on TVTropes is total bullshit. This is sometimes difficult to notice since a lot of the stuff on TVTropes is quite insightful, or at least quite funny. It's a wiki, you get what you get.

The term punkpunk is a reaction to the trend of randomly adding -punk to any old word and then pretending it's a significant new thing. Cabbagepunk, squirrelpunk, moonpunk...you could do this all day. The -punk ending doesn't really mean crap when trivialized in this fashion. Originally, you get things like cyberpunk which are intended as a juxtaposition of punk culture with (in this case) prevalent integration of computer technology into the minutia of everyday life. It becomes about the line between man and machine becoming blurred, and it is an outcropping of the original aesthetics of punk culture esp. regarding the focus on individualism in a society which ostensibly promotes it while having numerous customs which effectively facilitate and enforce conformism. If I go "ah ha, I have invented a new -punk!" every five minutes...odds are, you're not contributing anything new. Instead you're just diluting the meaning. "Punkpunk" is simply a "fuck this, let's just go recursive and add -punk to punk!" reaction.

Anyway, the article is using the term incorrectly, it's got some info in there that's flat wrong, and it's got decent to good info from about ten distinct things muddled together with no real focus. Worse than useless.

So what it seems like you're actually getting into is the idea of being at least tentatively attached to (modern) punk culture while simultaneously taking up with some historicism or retro-historicism or futurism or whatever. Okay, fine, do that. You really don't need to make up a new word for it though. You don't need a taxonomy for everything. It's much better to just DO something and then worry about whether there's a word for it after the fact. Or just say fuck it, realize that all these retrofuturist concepts obsessed with erroneous or revised versions of historical periods are all more or less the same thing and lacking enough meat between them (as yet) to really be distinct things, and just call all of them retrofuturistpunk.

The funny thing about cyberpunk novels is that they're fictional. If I want to have atomic power plants in the 1600s, no one is going to stop me. The final arbiter is whether or not it's a good story, not whether I carefully refrained from stepping across someone's idea of taxonomical boundaries.
Logged

Mad repairman for the ship of the damned.

19th Century Space Pilot
Snr. Officer
****
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Cererean
WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2010, 11:28:38 pm »

Ah, but then you'd be blending in Atompunk with Clockpunk Smiley

What I'm trying to do is, essentially, gather a table together, with -punk down the side (Clockpunk, Steampunk etc) and a particular trait across the top (for example, the first column woould be for Mood, another for power generation...).
Logged
Angus McCarthy
Officer
***
United States United States



« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2010, 03:02:09 am »

What I'm trying to do is, essentially, gather a table together, with -punk down the side (Clockpunk, Steampunk etc) and a particular trait across the top (for example, the first column woould be for Mood, another for power generation...).

One would hope the names themselves already should convey that. Clock, Steam, Electro, Diesel, Atom, Cyber all easily convey the prevalent technology available in the setting.

The "-punk" suffix implies a dystopian or at least dreary social outlook. There are many Steampunks who seem to conveniently forget the darker side of the Industrial Revolution.

For other "moods" I would look to literary genres - if you simply MUST give something a label - so you get Steam Noir, Atomic Romance, Clockwork Fantasy, ad infinitum, all of which convey a significant amount of information in just the name. But again, it is just a name.

I daresay trying to pin down exactly what should get lumped under which sub-sub-sub-genre seems a rather trivial pursuit. I heartily agree with Mr. Arcwelder despite his propensity for colorful language. Say you are dealing in Anachronistic Speculative Fiction. Anything more than that is splitting hairs and only serves to stifle creativity in the long run.
Logged

Train up a moustache in the way it should go, and when it is old it shall not depart from it.
Malcom Kane
Snr. Officer
****
United States United States



« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2010, 03:58:25 am »

I don't "conviently ignore" the darker side of of he Industrial revolution, I activly denigh it.  Given that we seem to be heading in a dystopian direction , I don't need dark nilistic tones in my fantasy life. I've got enough of that in my real one. What I love about Steampunk is it's hope and optimisim ,the dream of a past better and cleaner than it really was.
Logged

To Break the Chains,
To Shatter the Walls,
To Wake the Sleepers.
Angus McCarthy
Officer
***
United States United States



« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 04:15:13 am »

Well yes, in practice it doesn't all fit into the labels we try to give things. And I suppose that was really my point after all.
Logged
Malcom Kane
Snr. Officer
****
United States United States



« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 09:10:20 pm »

That children is the sound a bubble of self-important pomposity makes when "popped"
Logged
Just call me Rob
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United Kingdom United Kingdom


Captain: RD Susurrus


« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 10:43:58 pm »

The "-punk" suffix implies a dystopian or at least dreary social outlook.

Not sure about that.
The term was coined in the mid 80s and the punk culture was the active and loud counter-culture of that decade.
Had it been 20 years earler it would have been SteamHippy.

There was never anything to do with TruePunk in CyberPunk - except the non-coformist attitude of the protagonists of the stories.



Logged

Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting aiw kwacken.
MWBailey
Rogue Ætherlord
*
United States United States


"This is the sort of thing no-one ever believes"

rtafStElmo
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2010, 09:19:27 pm »

postdeconstructionistnihilistnonconformistviviantinonsurrectionisticatedized....Punk? Wink Cheesy

(sorry, couldnt resist).
Logged

Walk softly and carry a big banjo...

""quid statis aspicientes in infernum"
punkandska66
Officer
***
United States United States



« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2010, 02:35:27 am »

The "-punk" suffix implies a dystopian or at least dreary social outlook.

Not sure about that.
The term was coined in the mid 80s and the punk culture was the active and loud counter-culture of that decade.

Sorry, what? The first recorded use of the word "punk" was in 1970 in a quote by Ed Sanders of The Fugs in the Chicago Tribune. Punk was already big and had been called "punk" for years by the mid-80's.
Or am I misunderstanding your post and you meant the term "steampunk"?
Logged
TribalWren
Guest
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2010, 02:53:40 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry, what? The first recorded use of the word "punk" was in 1970 in a quote by Ed Sanders of The Fugs in the Chicago Tribune. Punk was already big and had been called "punk" for years by the mid-80's.
Or am I misunderstanding your post and you meant the term "steampunk"?

The way I understood it is that 'punk-rock' music actually appeared in the 1960s. It was by the 1970s that 'punk' had turned into what could be described as a subculture in it's own right, in short incorporating music, art, fashion and (in my eyes most importantly) politics/philosophy. I personally feel that any punk subculture not incorporating ALL of these factors can not in the strictest sense be described as truly 'punk'.

For those who deny that steampunk has a particular political/philosophical stance I would argue that by it's basic social definition of adopting unconventional clothing, behaviours etc is is inherently 'counter-culture' and in defiance of social norms, which in itself is then a concious political stance or choice. What do you think?
Logged
The Squire
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United States United States


Sans Peur


« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2010, 03:18:35 am »

The "-punk" suffix implies a dystopian or at least dreary social outlook.

Not sure about that.
The term was coined in the mid 80s and the punk culture was the active and loud counter-culture of that decade.

Sorry, what? The first recorded use of the word "punk" was in 1970 in a quote by Ed Sanders of The Fugs in the Chicago Tribune. Punk was already big and had been called "punk" for years by the mid-80's.

Or am I misunderstanding your post and you meant the term "steampunk"?

I remember the word being used in the 1950's. It was slang for a 'juvenile delinquent.' I think the Ed Sanders quote was about 'punk rock.'

[The original use of the work "punk" was to describe a prostitute, as used by Shakespeare in "Measure for Measure" (1603), and Samual Buttler in "Hudibras" (1663). Following this and prior to the mid-1970s, punk, was commonly used to describe "a young male hustler, a gangster, a hoodlum, or a ruffian". As Legs McNeil explains, "On TV, if you watched cop shows, Kojak, Baretta, when the cops finally catch the mass murderer, they'd say, 'you dirty Punk.' It was what your teachers would call you. It meant that you were the lowest." wikipedia]

« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 03:20:24 am by The Squire » Logged

"You don't mind breaking the law?"
        "Not in the least."
"Nor running a chance of arrest?"
        "Not in a good cause."
"Oh, the cause is excellent!"
         "Then I am your man."
punkandska66
Officer
***
United States United States



« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2010, 05:25:06 am »

The "-punk" suffix implies a dystopian or at least dreary social outlook.

Not sure about that.
The term was coined in the mid 80s and the punk culture was the active and loud counter-culture of that decade.

Sorry, what? The first recorded use of the word "punk" was in 1970 in a quote by Ed Sanders of The Fugs in the Chicago Tribune. Punk was already big and had been called "punk" for years by the mid-80's.

Or am I misunderstanding your post and you meant the term "steampunk"?

I remember the word being used in the 1950's. It was slang for a 'juvenile delinquent.' I think the Ed Sanders quote was about 'punk rock.'

[The original use of the work "punk" was to describe a prostitute, as used by Shakespeare in "Measure for Measure" (1603), and Samual Buttler in "Hudibras" (1663). Following this and prior to the mid-1970s, punk, was commonly used to describe "a young male hustler, a gangster, a hoodlum, or a ruffian". As Legs McNeil explains, "On TV, if you watched cop shows, Kojak, Baretta, when the cops finally catch the mass murderer, they'd say, 'you dirty Punk.' It was what your teachers would call you. It meant that you were the lowest." wikipedia]
Yeah  I meant the first recorded use of the word "Punk" in reference to Punk Rock.  I should have been more specific.
Logged
Atterton
Time Traveler
****

Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2010, 10:55:50 am »

That punkpunk entry just seems like a spoof. Feel free to try and create a chart though, just don´t expect literature to fall into neat little categories.
Logged

Resurrectionist and freelance surgeon.
Halcogeth
Deck Hand
*
United Kingdom United Kingdom


« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2010, 09:32:08 pm »

This cabbage-punk interests me, please tell me more.

Thinking about it, I bet it's nothing like it sounds, and is infact about cabbage-patch-doll homonculi. RAMPAGING cabbage patch homonculi! The Horror!
Logged
Sebastian Greyfield
Gunner
**
United Kingdom United Kingdom


The apparently chinless wonder


« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2010, 10:50:07 pm »

This cabbage-punk interests me, please tell me more.

Thinking about it, I bet it's nothing like it sounds, and is infact about cabbage-patch-doll homonculi. RAMPAGING cabbage patch homonculi! The Horror!
Rabid rampaging cabbage-patch-doll homonculi who answer back, dont brush their hats and take their afternoon tea at 10 in the morning
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.646 seconds with 16 queries.