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Author Topic: THE SPLIT IN THE STEAMPUNK TIMELINE!  (Read 9310 times)
Dr. makebot
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« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2010, 07:48:14 pm »

here is a quick sketch I did on google sketchup.

the centeral cylinder is the lye boiler, and the voltac pile itself is in the middle of it. the bellows are on the top, and the two brass lines are the electricity out. the sodium dyes are at the bottom left. the four iron rods are suttuated around the boiler. the collom is the knock out tower, the black glass tank hydrogen, and the green tank steam. the small hatch is the door for more chemicals.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 07:51:08 pm by Dr. makebot » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2010, 12:43:22 am »

Very nice, that looks very convincing.
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tophatdan
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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2010, 03:41:32 pm »

here is a quick sketch I did on google sketchup.

the centeral cylinder is the lye boiler, and the voltac pile itself is in the middle of it. the bellows are on the top, and the two brass lines are the electricity out. the sodium dyes are at the bottom left. the four iron rods are suttuated around the boiler. the collom is the knock out tower, the black glass tank hydrogen, and the green tank steam. the small hatch is the door for more chemicals.


 i do like it a lot, you have all of the components there, it is a little larger than i was thinking, mainly in the form of those giant storage tanks, and the 20 ft. sall knockout tower...

 thanks for the sketch and if you feel like doing more then please post them, i think i will work on one of my own somewhat loosely based on your sketch...

 perhaps what you have here is a 'phase 2' or laboratory testing model, where as i am looking forr the phase 3 final production model which would be going into the davytrains and airships as a powerplant.
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Dr. makebot
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« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2010, 05:22:25 pm »

here is a quick sketch I did on google sketchup.

the centeral cylinder is the lye boiler, and the voltac pile itself is in the middle of it. the bellows are on the top, and the two brass lines are the electricity out. the sodium dyes are at the bottom left. the four iron rods are suttuated around the boiler. the collom is the knock out tower, the black glass tank hydrogen, and the green tank steam. the small hatch is the door for more chemicals.


 i do like it a lot, you have all of the components there, it is a little larger than i was thinking, mainly in the form of those giant storage tanks, and the 20 ft. sall knockout tower...

 thanks for the sketch and if you feel like doing more then please post them, i think i will work on one of my own somewhat loosely based on your sketch...

 perhaps what you have here is a 'phase 2' or laboratory testing model, where as i am looking forr the phase 3 final production model which would be going into the davytrains and airships as a powerplant.


Thank you for your coments Tophatdan.
I was going for the lab model compared to the acctual end unit.
Tell me, can Knockout towers be placed sideways?
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tophatdan
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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2010, 08:11:31 pm »

no, they are a vertical structure, but most of them are only a few feet tall, i mean in the oilfield an H2s knockout is about a 2 foot structure, in whiskey distilling a water knockout is only a few inches tall, seperating hydrogen gas from hot water vapor shouldnt be that hard, probably somewhere between the two, the reason its called a 'tower' is because it is placed at the highest point of a structure or device to let gravity do the work rather than having to run some sort of pump.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
this is a natural gas punping station knockout tower.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
here is a diagram of a compressor oil knockout

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
here is a portable knockout used by sewer workers to disipate methane


you see, they are very scaleable devices, and can be used in many aplications, its a pretty simple device too, basically a pressure vessel which allows a heavier substance to pass down into a holding tank and be 'knocked out' of the mixture. the lighter matter just rises through a stratigically placed pipe out and into a holding tank...
 its working parts are basically a wire mesh for condensing, a holding tank, some pipes and a 'manifold' which would controll pressure.
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tophatdan
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« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2010, 08:33:28 pm »

ok a correction, some knockout towers are horizontal, as shown here...



i cant say i have ever personally seen a horizontal knockout but apparently they exist.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)
now here is an awesome dual manifold knoout designed to break hydrogen and water vapor apart in comercial hydrogen production, its the same concept as any of the others we hae seen, just that it uses 2 manifolds, 1 for the 'steam' and one for the hydrogen gas. so basically this is exactly what we are looking for.

its about 5 feet tall and uses rigid 'veins' inside instead of a wire mesh...
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Dr. makebot
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« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2010, 10:51:17 pm »

o.k.
smaller, more compact version, most likely the one that would have been manufactured. it is sidways instead of upright, so it looks more like a boiler. this would probably have been a good thing, as it would have been easy to retrofit on to exsisting trains. I have also intergrated the hydrogen tank, moved the sodium dyes and made the knockout tower like the one in the post above.
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tophatdan
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2010, 12:34:13 am »

that is awesome!!! its perfect... you could fit a single piston steam engine to that and use it on anything!

airships, trains, trolley cars, farm equipment, anything!!!

the lines could be run to a hydrogen tank anywhere on the vehicle...

wonderfull design !
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Dr. makebot
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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2010, 08:09:16 am »

thank you Grin
by the way, got board last night to I put four engines together into an engine room.

the tank is for the sodium so it dosen`t react with the steam.
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pakled
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« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2010, 04:57:32 am »

The trenches problems occurred in the latter part of the war; apparently (and this may only be apocryphal) General Lee, as a former engineer, became known as the 'King of Spades'.
The Battle of the Crater was one of the first attempts to break the trench line; miners (Pennsylvanians, I recall) dug under the Confederate lines, planted several dozen tons of gunpowder, lit the fuse, and headed out the tunnel. Once the charge went, they marched into the crater, which was too steep to climb out of, and were exterminated with extreme prejudice.

But that has nothing to do with the content of the thread. Pardon the interruption...Wink

I tend to agree with Stirling that having the Germans remain disunited (Peshawar Lancers) would have been a good split, if you're looking at the political side. Still, a good working power source would have made it Sodium punk? Electropunk? Chempunk? I dunno...but it's a great idea. Keep developing it.
 
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tophatdan
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« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2010, 08:25:56 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
ok above is a map of the U.S.A. after the "Great War"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
here you can see the political lines, with the Union depicted in red and Confederated Labor in grey

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
here is the political map with all of the "conflict" states shown in green.


so obviously after the war america is a far more fragmented nation with many new states and borders...

i have been working on this story a lot lately, it has become the tale of an airship called the hercules which is adventuring around italy. as a result i have been writing about italy quite a bit, so, i also created a map of europe which was redrawn after the great war as well. europe saw far less conflict than america however the political fallout was no less profound.

take a look.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
ok obviously here we have "europe major" with allied nations in red and Confederated Labor in grey, these are post war borders so here you can see that france and austria made out like bandits after the war. the balkans have become quite fragmented (whats new) and a few of the old eastern kingdoms have risen back to power like walachia which is now the protectorate of constantinople (thats right no longer istanbul) neutral or noncombatant countries are in blue.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and this shows conflict regions in green. a big thing you will notice is that france has a portion of eastern spain but neither is listed as a combat zone, this is because during the war they had a border standoff which never erupted into battle, however after the war a treatise allowed france to annex that part of spain for defence purposes.

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Captain Quinlin Hopkins
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« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2010, 10:27:24 pm »

Quite an interesting idea.  Not sure how I'd missed it before.  Thanks for keeping us updated, I'll play a bit with the design later when I've the time off. 

Best of luck
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tophatdan
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2010, 02:18:30 am »

Best of luck

thanks, i have been working on this a while. since i made the original post i have rewritten it several times as use as a preface. my book is slowly turning into the great american novel, i am on chapter 3 using a 56 page chapter model with 13 chapters outlined total.

i am not going to call it 'sodium punk' or anything weird like that, it is still working off of steam power produced by the pile engine, sure the fuel is sodium but we dont call it 'coalpunk' (i hope no one does anyhow)

so ya, as i write this thing i am building an entire world around it, technology, politics, economics, i have worked up world factbooks for a dozen different nations, made work schedules for my airship crews etc etc. i think i have spent more time creating the material for the book than i have writing the book itself, not to say that it isnt going very well in my opinion.

the invention is, at the least chemically sound, there is a little suspension of disbelief here however it is quite a bit less than say... cavorite...

i would still like to see some engine designs from people, as well as any ideas on 'flying machines' which are neither airship nor airplane...


thanks again for the interest and please do check back.
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tophatdan
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2010, 08:39:30 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

this is a description of the voltaic piles being used in an airship engine room...
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Captain Quinlin Hopkins
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2010, 09:12:31 pm »

Quite enough detail to have a bit of fun with a mock up.  Now all I need is the spare time.  Though I might mention, chaining up males to the wall might put your book into a different category than expected.  Wink
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tophatdan
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« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2010, 10:01:31 pm »

Quite enough detail to have a bit of fun with a mock up.  Now all I need is the spare time.  Though I might mention, chaining up males to the wall might put your book into a different category than expected.  Wink

purely to disipate static electricity, and only in the engine room
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tophatdan
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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2011, 08:09:49 pm »

ok today we have added "WEAPONS OF THE GREAT WAR"

GUNS
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Imperialist1867
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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2011, 08:29:19 pm »

Definitely a really entertaining timeline!!

Three questions though:

1)   Did Canada & Australia become nations/achieve independence from Westminster prior to, or during the “Great War”
2)   Is India still ruled by the East India company, or its own separate dominion?
3)   Was Mexico under Maximillian/French control during the war?
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tophatdan
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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2011, 08:49:33 pm »

Definitely a really entertaining timeline!!

Three questions though:

1)   Did Canada & Australia become nations/achieve independence from Westminster prior to, or during the “Great War”
2)   Is India still ruled by the East India company, or its own separate dominion?
3)   Was Mexico under Maximillian/French control during the war?


1) Australia yes, Canada no, Canada or rather parts of it, is still under direct british rule, though as a far more powerful part of the empire. there are areas of canada which are only british territories which enjoy some self governance. australia experienced a mutiny when during the war the spanish blockaded the philippines and the solomons, preventing any direct contact with the empire.
2) India will not obtain it's independence until the early 20th century
3) Mexico began the war themselves as a sovereign nation under a republican government, during the war they gave up their sovereignty to the cause of "confederated labor" think of them like austria or holland in ww2, now that the war is over, mexico (what is left of it) is a spanish controlled territory with no sovereignty...
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tophatdan
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2011, 08:57:05 pm »

Artillery Train - driven by a massive hyper voltaic pile engine, this crawler type vehicle was heavily armored and was used to advance artillery crews into the thick of battle, each train had mounted 4 gatling guns which could be operated from within its ormored hull and could transport upto 2 artillery crews
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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tophatdan
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2011, 10:56:04 pm »

The Escort tank - used primarily as a support vehicle, the escort tank has a single turreted gatling gun operated by a gunner and a single shot 1 lb cannon fired bu the driver, the entire vehicle is built upon a standard crawler/tractor unit primarily usedd for agriculture.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2013, 02:27:42 pm »

It appears this thread had its last comment in 2011. Has TopHatDan or anyone else done any further work on/with this idea?
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Weaver
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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2014, 04:34:13 pm »

It appears this thread had its last comment in 2011. Has TopHatDan or anyone else done any further work on/with this idea?

I know that as replies go this is probably a year late and may count as thread necromancy (sorry if it does, although raising the dead it something of a staple of steampunk mad science) but I thought that I'd mention that I'm gearing up to have a crack at using this idea ( I figured that if I voiced the fact that I was going do, I'd be more motivated to stick at it). Tophatdan said that it was okay for me to do so way back in 2010 provided that I give credit where it's due (I hope that that still stands). Not going to be using the Great War and what happens afterwards though, just the 'hyper voltic piles' and the applications thereof. Advice would still be appreciated though.
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J. Wilhelm
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« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2014, 05:58:18 pm »

Great thread, and a very nice technical argument on sodium engines!  Though the Mexican and Spanish Steampunks might be very disappointed.

I'm also having a hard time seeing the Mexican nobility - even in the very remote possibility of supporting the Confederate Labour  giving up power at the beginning of the conflagration!!!  At the start of the 19th. C. they wouldn't give it to a puppet monarch in Spain (Joseph Bonaparte), much less abandon the "Mexican Empire" for lesser Confederate causes.

If you pardon me for saying so, this is a major fault in the story in Mr. Tophatdan's story, IMHO.  It assumes a level of global political influence by the Confederate side which simply did not exist.  If the North was in control of the sodium engine technology, wouldn't that make the South even weaker during a conflagration?  I can see the Confederate states allying themselves with European powers if the latter were seeking territory or spoils of war, but the Confederates would be playing a minor partnership role and always being at risk of being overrun by the Europeans.  Spain on the other hand would probably not even enter the war as it was politically unable to challenge anyone.  You see, the Spanish king Ferdinand VII had capitulated to Napoleon Bonaparte in 1808, and Spain was weak in the decades that followed... that is why the Mexican nobility decided to join general movement for independence (read on below)

~ ~ ~

There were two political sides to Mexico in the 19th. C. Starting almost all the way back to 1800.  On the "Right" you had a Mexican nobility disenchanted with Spain's waning power and capitulation to Napoleon. On the "Left" you had a genuine "grassroots" movement made up of the Mexican Catholic clergy and powerful military men and merchants of mixed native-colonial ancestry who had risen the through the traditional colonial Spanish caste system.

The "Right" was obviously inclined toward a monarchy as a form of government.  The "Left" was awash in the ideas coming from the Age of Enlightment and had been inspired by the American War of Independence, not to mention the French Independence - thus were inclined to a Republican form of government.

The whole of the 19th. C. would see a tug of war between the Right and the Left for control of Mexico.  Even during the 20th C. when a Republican form of government had been cemented, there would be a tug of war between those who favoured European and American economic interests and those who argued in favour of redistribution of resources for the masses and isolation from control by foreign powers.

During the American Civil War the Union side very much favoured the "Left" in Mexico because it meshed well with America's Monroe Doctrine in that the philosophical goal was to keep Europeans and European influence out of the American Continent.  A Republican form of government in Mexico (the first of Latin American republics) was "icing on the cake" so to speak.  This side obviously would not ally with the Confederate States under any circumstance - and having potential control of Sodium Engine technology under an alliance means they don't have to.

The 'Right" on the other hand, could have aligned themselves with the Confederate cause, but to be honest, it would be a very tenuous alliance.  Simply put, the commercial interests of the American plantation owners had little in common with the lofty ideals of the Mexican nobility - who bowed to the Hapsburg an Bourbon families as rightful heirs of the Mexican Viceroyalty established back in 1521.  The Confederate States would likely be back stabbed by either the Mexican nobility or the Europeans at some point after, or even during the war.

Mexican Independence and nationhood.

A declaration of independence in Mexico happened in real history in 1810 and finally won in 1821 when noble generals allied themselves with other important military men representing the lower classes and ethnically mixed  political bulk, already in revolt.  Like George Washington in the US, a former general, in this case Agustin de Iturbide, became the leader of the forces along with help from other military men such as Guadalupe Victoria and Vicente Guerrero plus Mexican former clergy like Jose Ma. Morelos.  Most of these characters were clearly upwardly mobile but remarkably came from the lower classes at the time, yet Agustin de Iturbide represented the European nobility in Mexico, so the alliance was built into the military.

The Mexican nobility had already agreed on independence more that a decade before, because a much weakened Spain had its king abdicate to Napoleon Bonaparte's brother, Joseph, at the turn of the century. Aiding to national fervour, back in 1808 a group of clergy men first headed by Miguel Hidalgo Y Costilla allied in a movement for independence and had declared independence in 1810.  While the war of independence would primarily be of benefit to the lower classes, the Mexican nobility saw a chance to continue ruling, and they were not about to go back to Spain under French control after so many generations in Mexico!  Agustin de Iturbide became the first elected leader and later was crowned as "Constitutional Emperor of Mexico (Agustin I), in 1822.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Miguel Hidalogo y Costilla (Jesuit priest and first leader of the Mexican movement for Independence, declared independence in 1810)


Agustin I of Mexico (Agustin de Iturbide, First Emperor of Mexico 1822-1823 and former Mexican general)


Guadalupe Victoria (first president of Mexico 1824-1829 and former Mexican General))


Vicente Guerrero (second president of Mexico 1829-1829 and former Mexican General)


Jose Maria Morelos y Pavon (Mexican Captain General 1810-1815)


As the Mexican nobles were trying to preserve the crown for rightful heirs (Habsburg, Bourbon), even after a Republican period in Mexico, they were very obstinate and had long decided to both be independent as an empire and keep their monarchy.  Their solution came 40 years later  during the second Mexican Empire, when the Mexican Nobles chose Prince Ferdinand Maximilian Joseph of Austria as the second Emperor , taking advantage (ironically) of the French Intervention (again, US Civil War overlaps with French intervention).  One could say they were trying to deceive their patron, Napoleon III) into giving them a powerful Habsburg monarchy.  Very lofty ideals for the Mexican nobility, but understandable in light of the original territory of the Mexican Habsburg Vice-royalty which occupied much of North America for 300 years by 1821.

Maximilian I (Former Prince Ferdinand Maximilian Joseph of Austria, second Emperor of Mexico 1864-1867)


Benito Juarez (Mexican President, 1858–1861 as interim, then 1861–1865, 1865–1867, 1867–1871 and 1871–1872.  In [domestic] exile during reign of Maximilian.  Returned to presidency after French Intervention)



So in my mind it makes little sense that the Mexican nobility would abdicate power to the economic struggle of wealthy plantation owners in the Confederate States.



As a possible outcome, it makes more sense that either:

1. The Confederate alliance side would win,  giving major territorial concessions in North America to the Europeans (and likely being backstabbed or even overrun by the Europeans later on), with a Mexican state remaining as a puppet monarchy.  A fun corollary to this is that France is "betrayed" by Austria and thus you can set the stage for a much more powerful Maximilian to go into Mexico, at which point the old Austrian-Spanish empire that ruled the Americas is partially rebuilt under the Habsburg family.

2.  Basically the Europeans lose and they are out for good from North America, with the American Union winning as it happened in real history, and Mexico remains an independent republic under control of the United States, if they are deemed "at risk" as it happened with Cuba later on.

3.  There is a stalemate which results in a partitioning of the American territory, with some major powers gaining territorial concession as Mr. Tophatdan mentions, but I would still see Mexico as a puppet monarchy - and basically triggering a second Mexican independence movement or resurrection down the line.  As to who would be the king/emperor of Mexico, that depends on how the European powers allied themselves with the Union or Confederate sides.  Please note that aligning the United Kingdom with the United States in the 19th. C. may be politically far too premature (War of 1812 anyone?).  But in a Great War, Mexico could not be a republic unless Union (North) forces had invaded Mexico and either way Spain would definitely not be in control of Mexico, unless Spain became strong again (which probably requires Austrian intervention)!

Now talking about Spain (I leave a more in depth discussion to our Spanish Brassgoggles members who will hopefully pick up on this thread), seeing Spain become an "outcast" in the production of sodium engines also makes little sense.  To what political end? What threat did Spain pose to the world? Exactly what is being sought by marginalising Spain when it was already very weak by the 19th. C?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 06:45:25 am by J. Wilhelm » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2014, 12:49:25 am »

Now that there's renewed interest in this thread, does anyone know how to get in touch with tophatdan? As with Weaver, I am also utilizing aspects of this idea in my own work, and wanted to work out the acknowledgements.
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