The Steampunk Forum at Brass Goggles
October 20, 2017, 06:12:38 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Support BrassGoggles! Donate once or $3/mo.
 See details here.
 
   Home   Blog Help Rules Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Pewter and copper.  (Read 6926 times)
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« on: March 18, 2010, 09:31:36 pm »

Currently i'm working with some pewter, its wonderfully soft and easy to work. But sort of lacks contrast other than dark and light (with the aid of a patina solution), so i want to combine it with copper. I've contemplated electro plating copper on and hammering into it. I think hammering is out as copper is so much harder than pewter. Maybe melting pewter into copper incised areas might work, though i suspect it would go into blobs and not flow evenly.. Ideally there would be some wonder solution that paints on a thin copper surface...is there one? or any other ideas?
Logged

Endeavour Cull
Snr. Officer
****
Netherlands Netherlands



« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 09:54:21 pm »

You can hammer copper quite well. You just have to make it soft with a flame (hobby burner or the barbecue) It has to get cherry red and just cool it down in the air or under water. You can do this as often as you like, it doesn't affect the copper.

Pewter/solder will spread evenly if you firstly put on a flux (like S 39). Then use a flame to solder and not a soldering iron.
If you put the pewter into the incisions and put it on a stove it probably will work also.

Please be cautious with the vapor inside your home.

Stay experimenting
Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2010, 12:34:12 pm »

Yep i'm pretty ok with copper ive made quiet a few bowls now and now three pewter ones. Pewter though gets softer as you work it and firms up over
Copper.

Pewter


Id like to combine the two though
Logged
jringling
Time Traveler
****
United States United States


convicted Rogue and Vagabond…long story…


WWW
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2010, 01:16:27 pm »

If the "background" piece is to be pewter, you could make ornamental copper pieces and rivet them to the pewter. You could drill through both pieces and set a solid rivet or solder a stud to the back side of the copper and rivet only the backside of the pewter...

I guess this would work with pewter ornaments on a copper piece. I have not worked with pewter to know...
Logged

sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2010, 03:06:48 pm »

I could true but i've seen some "arts and crafts" pieces that seem to have copper inlays or more likely copper plate on some sections. I know my bits aren't "Steam" but the materials and skills are. Not used rivets yet but the contrast woudl be interesting indeed.. thanks
Logged
Endeavour Cull
Snr. Officer
****
Netherlands Netherlands



« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2010, 08:02:04 pm »

I seem to have misunderstood your question completely. My apologies.
Obviously you are well skilled with copper and pewter and i under estimated your craftmanship. My apologies also.

To come back on the subject with hopefully a possible answer:

I found a technique that's called 'Nunome-Zogan technique' with a description here:

http://www.jarkman.co.uk/catalog/jewel/nunome.htm

Some beautiful pieces are on that page and also on this one:

http://tsuba.jyuluck-do.com/TU10152.html


Logged
Dr cornelius quack
Rogue Ætherlord
*
United Kingdom United Kingdom


Arrant Carney. Phmebian Cultural Attache.


« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2010, 08:16:15 pm »

Two thoughts come to mind. you might plate copper selectively onto a pewter substrate by using a shellac type mask to cover up the bits that need to stay unplated. Or you could plate the whole thing and selectively etch the copper away.
Logged

Such are the feeble bases on which many a public character rests.

Today, I am two, separate Gorillas.
Captain Shipton Bellinger
Master Tinkerer
***
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Why the goggles..? In case of ADVENTURE!


WWW
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2010, 01:47:38 pm »

... Ideally there would be some wonder solution that paints on a thin copper surface...is there one? or any other ideas?


Might Caswell's Plug 'n' Plate be what you're looking for?

Logged

Capt. Shipton Bellinger R.A.M.E. (rtd)

sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2010, 03:07:12 pm »

... Ideally there would be some wonder solution that paints on a thin copper surface...is there one? or any other ideas?


Might Caswell's Plug 'n' Plate be what you're looking for?




Ah yes i found some pages about "brush plating" looks interesting.. thanks.
Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2010, 03:09:04 pm »

I found a technique that's called 'Nunome-Zogan technique' with a description here:

http://www.jarkman.co.uk/catalog/jewel/nunome.htm

Some beautiful pieces are on that page and also on this one:

http://tsuba.jyuluck-do.com/TU10152.html
Ah now that looks interesting, look sot be a sort of hammer welding, might just work with the soft pewter on copper.. thanks!


Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2010, 05:02:23 pm »

On investigation "brush plating" looks very interesting indeed. There seem to be a few kits on ebay, for gold and silver. I've found the odd one or two for copper too. I did just go see if i could try it but i seem not to be able to find my old car battery charger for now. Maybe i'll get a kit...cheers.

I'm endeavouring to find if pewter can be plated, its the new sort of pewter mostly tin in the mix...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 05:13:15 pm by sidecar_jon » Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2010, 04:29:58 pm »

On experimentation, yes pewter will flow and stick well to copper (as long as the copper is very very clean) I tried it on a scrap bowl and if i do it on a proper job id make sure the pewter has a proper area to pool in...seems a promising technique.
Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2010, 04:32:17 pm »

Oh an a little discovery, copper transits heat very well, but pewter transits it poorly. And pewter gives zero warning that its about to melt. Im sure the heat transmition things could be turned into an advantage in some way...
Logged
Mr. Boltneck
Zeppelin Admiral
******
United States United States


« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2010, 04:57:21 pm »

I can't claim to have tried copper and pewter (yet) but it is possible to cast things with inclusions of other metals, provided the latter have higher melting points than the cast material. From the work of people who do this a lot, as opposed to just playing with it (guilty, here), I gather that the issues include fixing the inclusions in the mold in the desired position, dealing with the range of coefficients of thermal expansion, and the need in some cases to preheat the mold to prevent the inclusions causing casting voids through over-rapid chilling during the pour. I get the impression that "keying" the inclusion such that it doesn't simply pop out of the casting can also help. This is one of about a hundred techniques I want to dig into further...
Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2010, 09:31:23 pm »

Id agree, if i were flowing pewter into a recessed shape i think at least some under cut would be in order. Thought the small bit i tried seems well stuck on. The use of flux is very important, without it its just blobs, with it the surface tension is released and it flows. I would recommend a low recess so the whole thing can be either ground down or sanded down to reveal the differing surfaces. I see possibilities of using wires etc to separate areas and even draw with copper or brass wire in the manner of Chinese enamel ware.

Id say, at least with modern Pewter, it behave rather the same as plumbers solder....indeed its probably just about the same thing.
Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2010, 06:05:12 pm »

I've ordered a brush plating kits from (http://www.gaterosplating.co.uk/Copper-Brush-Plating-Kit.php) i chatted on the phone to the chap that makes it and he even tried it out on some modern lead free solder , which was the nearest thing he had to pewter and its worked ok. Apparently it works on most things including that awful stuff known as Mazac or monkey metal (the stuff they make dinky toys out of) so i hope it will work. Interestingly its seems kits differ in technique this one has a brass brush so it transfers ions of copper into the dampened tip and so to the piece, others use a Stainless steel brush and that pushes copper ions out of the liquid on to the metal. So in this kits the brush is sort of used up slowly...
Logged
Narsil
Immortal
**
United Kingdom United Kingdom



WWW
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2010, 10:48:24 pm »


It's probably worth experimenting with different alloys, there are quite a few different tin based 'white metal' alloys for various plate, casting and soldering purposes.

You might also find it useful to use yellow ochre paint as a resist, essentially the opposite of flux to effectively mask off areas where you don't want the metal to flow.

Alother realted technique is mokume gane, which you may have come across, fusing layers of copper and silver of nickel to create complex layered patterns which can be drawn and manipulated to create quite interesting contrasting patterns. A modern variation is to pack laser cut patterns with powdered metal in a sealed metal box which is heated and compressed to created more tightly controlled figurative designs.
Logged







A man of eighty has outlived probably three new schools of painting, two of architecture and poetry and a hundred in dress.
Lord Byron
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2010, 06:49:26 pm »

ochre good tip, i was told also Tipex works.

mokume gane is interesting but noisy to make, i chatted to a blacksmith who made a sort of fused steel for knife blades, he used chainsaw blades, red hot and hammered together, he said coper and silver work well too.  Interesting, but beyond my shed im afraid, being too noisy and requiring a real anvil rather than the bit of railway track i have...
Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2010, 06:59:50 pm »

http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_tutorials_hints_tips4.htm

Looks interesting too, make your own multimetal studs etc..
Logged
MrDibble
Officer
***
South Africa South Africa


« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2010, 09:25:09 am »

It should be fairly easy to colour pewter with copper by using vitriol (CuSO4) - copper sulphate. Cheaper than some kit if you use the raw materials, and what's better is that is a period solution.
Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2010, 11:46:52 am »

Results so far haven't been all that good. The copper moves across well and deposits on the pewter, but any attempt at polishing or even a light scrub with a brush etc and its all pulled straight off. I tried without electricity as suggested above with a similar result. Under the copper deposit the pewter is black, intimating that its oxidised by the process and that layer is not allowing the copper to properly integrate... further experimentation with voltages etc will follow.
Logged
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2010, 01:58:00 pm »

Not going what one might say, well...Variation in voltage etc does alow a thicker deposit but no better adhesion. I think the tin in the pewter is oxidising as the copper is deposited so not allowing it to stuck properly.
Logged
architect
Zeppelin Captain
*****
United States United States


...ò.δ...


WWW
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2010, 06:47:07 am »

is the solution in the kit a sort like root kill? if not I would look into that. you might also look into using something other than water like letting the root kill dry out and use the salts that precipatate out of it to mix into a flux and heat slightly to melt the flux so it absorbs the root kill powder. then you get flux to protect the metal being coated from oxidizing.
Logged

johnny99
Snr. Officer
****
United States United States



« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2010, 10:52:55 am »

ochre good tip, i was told also Tipex works.
I'm not sure what tipex is, But i've always found that Whiteout works well.

 
mokume gane is interesting but noisy to make, i chatted to a blacksmith who made a sort of fused steel for knife blades, he used chainsaw blades, red hot and hammered together, he said coper and silver work well too.  Interesting, but beyond my shed im afraid, being too noisy and requiring a real anvil rather than the bit of railway track i have...
Acctually sidecar_jon, Mokume gane is pretty damn easy to make, and not at all noisy. As the hot ingot has a very dull leadlike sound when you strike it. Infact, I usually don't even hammer it, But simply squeeze it in a set of press plates. The trickiest part is to watch the heat, so you don't end up with a puddle of moltem metal in the bottom of your forge, and to be careful to not overwork it causing delamination. Cry  Conversely, jewlers make it by soldering layers together. Then running it through their rolling mill.
     Pattern welded steel Is doable on a track anvil, although chainsaw (damascus) is a PITA at the best of times. The very first forge weld I ever made, was a cable (damascus) billet on a track anvil with a charcoal fire.

     On the subject of copper to pewter, have you considered tinning the copper completely with lead free solder then fusing it to the pewter with an iron?
Logged

We have enough youth. How about a fountain of smart!
sidecar_jon
Snr. Officer
****


« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2010, 04:00:04 pm »

is the solution in the kit a sort like root kill? if not I would look into that. you might also look into using something other than water like letting the root kill dry out and use the salts that precipatate out of it to mix into a flux and heat slightly to melt the flux so it absorbs the root kill powder. then you get flux to protect the metal being coated from oxidizing.

It certainly looks like copper sulphate solution. When scrubbed with a nylon brush the plate rips right off and leaves the pewter darker there than where its not plated.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.129 seconds with 17 queries.