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Author Topic: REICHPUNK - Aesthetics of the Third Reich  (Read 11439 times)
Miriavas
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« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2010, 06:43:08 am »

Squeeeeee! I love 'Ello 'Ello!!!

Now that out of my system,

There is nothing wrong with discussing this. It is History, a painful part, and sort of taboo in today's world.

But there is a reason it is enthralling, as well. Great struggles internally and externally make for excellent plots and stories. As well as the images we are used to in this era.
Leni Riefenstahl Was pure and utter genius in her portrayal of the Riech. It leaves a lasting impression on the societal mind. She made it so large and powerful, Hitler was all image, that's how he sold it. And why it makes a amazing setting for diesalpunk or what ever, like this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus

We shun that place in time and space because we all ask ourselves if we would be brave enough to do the right thing were we there..... The Germans and others were just any of us at all really.
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SashaGears
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« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2010, 07:56:47 am »

isn't the swastika(spelling? it's late) originally an indian symbol for the sun? o.O


*flies around*

i've always held a fascination for nazi apparel, mostly hats...I like hats ._.
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von Adler
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« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2010, 09:14:44 am »

The swastika is one of those symbols that seems to have cropped up in many cultures by itself, as a symbol of the sun. It's entirely possible that it's been used in that form in some ancient proto-culture that has since forked and developed into many seemingly disparate cultures, but it's still one of those symbols that seem so obvious.
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Mister Fox
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« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2010, 12:05:36 pm »

The question of whether the period/regime should be considered Dieselpunk or Steampunk isn’t, I think, as clear as it at first appears.

El Sombra, part of Abaddon Books’ frankly fantastic Steampunk Pax Brittania series, has some very Steampunk Nazis as the antagonists.  The Nazi passion for combining control, purity and techno-fetishism can be translated to any technological setting and works very well with Steampunk.  I mean, if you’re going to build a war machine to inspire terror, you could do a lot worse than a steam-power behemoth belching black coal smoke as its pipes scream with the pressure.  The aesthetic doesn’t necessarily involve internal combustion, and the classical revival was part of Victorian architectural design--look at the British Museum for just one example.
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von Adler
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« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2010, 12:16:41 pm »

The aesthetic doesn’t necessarily involve internal combustion, and the classical revival was part of Victorian architectural design--look at the British Museum for just one example.

True, but the Nazi regime would have not been possible without the massive scale of industrialization (though the German armies were among the least motorized, despite the propaganda), and despite Hitler's dislike for Bauhaus and other modernists, those same modernists were what kept the warmachine rolling.
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Albrecht
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« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2010, 12:20:12 pm »

A few thoughts: As mentioned before, there are many dieselpunk examples which toy with Nazi-aesthetics.
I for my part have no trouble digging through this part of German history. This is mainly due to two reasons:
1. No blood-relative of mine fired a shot between 1939 and 1945 (except during exercises)
2. I guess my temporal distance is big enough to objectively handle the subject.

But personally, I go more for Prussian-Punk anyway. The Belle Epoque suits me better than the 1930s.

And about the aesthetics of the Third Reich in general: Rammstein (the band) is toying with them as well and as far as I know, there has been negligible amounts of controversy because of it.

And: There are better periods and places around the world to draw inspiration from. Isn't it strange, every right-thinking person reviles Nazi Germany and their legacy, yet, their aesthetics have a strange, almost morbid and perverse (Hurray for Lovecraftisms!) attraction.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 12:23:13 pm by Albrecht » Logged

Clym Angus
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« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2010, 12:41:36 pm »

The problem is that this is always a touchy subject.  Being in America, we often don't have to walk "on eggshells" as much, but I have a dear German friend, a fellow engineer post-Doc, who definitely shies away, from this subject (or anything related to WWII).  I am an aerospace engineer, and in College I was constantly reminded of the German contributions to aviation.  We studied them as part of course.  One of my professors, Dr. Hans Mark (once Secretary of the Air Force, and once Deputy Administrator of NASA), knew Werner Von Braun personally (Dr. Mark was born in Germany so, if I understand correctly he was a form of "liaison" with Von Braun in some capacity due to common language).  But yes the subject is touchy.  All the more respect to my professors, some of whom (including my mentor) are Jewish.  We have to look past the dark periods of history and move forward, with a better understanding of the world we live in, without letting fear grip us.  Otherwise, that is when the problems begin.

J. "Wilhelm" Dunn
University of Texas at Austin "Go Longhorns"

Well quite, it is about separating the art from the politics, the media from the message if you will. To be honest as long as the language stays in the relm of design, construction, form, method and away from emotive terminology then we should be fine. That said it is an easy target for any troller, by the nature of the subject matter.

I always found the art and design to skip Victorian. Going for more classical forms of expression or "modern" (eg art deco, clean lines bold blocks) functional design. This would make sence mirroring the aspects of "sweeping away the old order." It could be argued that the art associated with that old order would be something that required to be distanced from. The physical mirroring the mind so to speak.
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Mr Addams
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« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2010, 12:56:18 pm »

The question of whether the period/regime should be considered Dieselpunk or Steampunk isn’t, I think, as clear as it at first appears.

El Sombra, part of Abaddon Books’ frankly fantastic Steampunk Pax Brittania series, has some very Steampunk Nazis as the antagonists.  The Nazi passion for combining control, purity and techno-fetishism can be translated to any technological setting and works very well with Steampunk.  I mean, if you’re going to build a war machine to inspire terror, you could do a lot worse than a steam-power behemoth belching black coal smoke as its pipes scream with the pressure.  The aesthetic doesn’t necessarily involve internal combustion, and the classical revival was part of Victorian architectural design--look at the British Museum for just one example.



True, but not entirely relevant, as the topic is about the aesthetics of the Nazis in WWII and its place in science fiction set during that period,  not the role of Nazism in steampunk scenarios.

I think that if we stray into those waters, we may soon find ourselves on very thin ice If you will excuse the mixed metaphor.
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Mister Fox
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« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2010, 01:26:17 pm »


True, but not entirely relevant, as the topic is about the aesthetics of the Nazis in WWII and its place in science fiction set during that period,  not the role of Nazism in steampunk scenarios.

I think that if we stray into those waters, we may soon find ourselves on very thin ice If you will excuse the mixed metaphor.


My apologies.  I didn't mean to drift into dangerous waters.

The question I was attempting to address was whether one could utilize the Nazi aesthetic without venturing into the territory of Dieselpunk, which was something there was a bit of discussion about.  My short answer was yes, because you could detach the aesthetic from the technology. 
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Prof. Erwin Lindemann
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« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2010, 01:37:32 pm »

There is a kind of "Nazipunk" already existing. It is based around that "Vril" and "Haunebu" stories, an axile Reich somewhere in "Neuschwabenland" (at antarctica) or in the "inner world". There are many books around this. The strange thing is: Every "good" German avoids it, and the neonazis living here avoid it, too! They think (not without reason  Wink ) that it is complete rubbish, and people will not take the neonazis serious if they believe in Flying saucers made by the Nazis. (And they are damn right...)

On the other hand there are Nazi aesthetics, and it is the basis of Dieselpunk. And that works great: You can keep the Nazis the villains. Wink
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Mr Addams
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« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2010, 01:39:59 pm »


True, but not entirely relevant, as the topic is about the aesthetics of the Nazis in WWII and its place in science fiction set during that period,  not the role of Nazism in steampunk scenarios.

I think that if we stray into those waters, we may soon find ourselves on very thin ice If you will excuse the mixed metaphor.


My apologies.  I didn't mean to drift into dangerous waters.

The question I was attempting to address was whether one could utilize the Nazi aesthetic without venturing into the territory of Dieselpunk, which was something there was a bit of discussion about.  My short answer was yes, because you could detach the aesthetic from the technology. 

Fair enough
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Ottens
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« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2010, 02:18:00 pm »

If I may shamelessly advertize myself, I have an article at The Gatehouse on "Crickey, Secret Nazi Stuff" that should be of interest in light of this topic.
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Albrecht
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« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2010, 02:42:04 pm »

If I may shamelessly advertize myself, I have an article at The Gatehouse on "Crickey, Secret Nazi Stuff" that should be of interest in light of this topic.


Nick, you shameless self-promoter!  Grin

And here's a big image with some nazi aesthetics and a really bad joke:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(right-click and "view image" makes it MUCH bigger)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 02:44:21 pm by Albrecht » Logged
Rockula
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Nothing beats a good hat.


« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2010, 03:17:00 pm »

Anyone else see The German Apple Front on 'Paul Merton In Europe'? A fine bunch of surrealist Anti-Nazi Germans who use the Nazi aesthetic in a manner intended to demean, embarrass and ridicule fascists.

Here's the Wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_Deutscher_%C3%84pfel

And some Youtube clips.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I think they're marvelous.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 03:20:38 pm by Rockula » Logged

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Capt. Dirigible
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« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2010, 03:53:01 pm »




Any other Brits on here wondering why Mel Smith is leading this East German military band?
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Mr. Boltneck
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« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2010, 05:08:13 pm »

I think that one question which always needs to be asked in this situation is what level of awareness is being displayed, and what is the perceived motivation for borrowing from the style of the Third Reich? One obvious example set would be the use of Riefenstahlian still and video imagery in Calvin Klein ads versus that in Laibach's work, along with that of their fellows in the NSK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neue_Slowenische_Kunst). The former I have long found deeply creepy (and not in a good way), in its apparently superficial and irreflective appropriation of such a culturally loaded style, whereas the latter had wit, irony, and purpose, and was created in an entirely knowing way as an anti-totalitarian statement.
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Albrecht
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« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2010, 05:41:40 pm »

Anyone else see The German Apple Front on 'Paul Merton In Europe'? A fine bunch of surrealist Anti-Nazi Germans who use the Nazi aesthetic in a manner intended to demean, embarrass and ridicule fascists.

Here's the Wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_Deutscher_%C3%84pfel

And some Youtube clips.
I think they're marvelous.


The Apple Front is great. I've sen them in action on two occasions during anti-nazi rallies. They give really good fruit-themed Nazi-style speeches, too. Grin
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Theophilus Saxe
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« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2010, 06:36:34 pm »




Any other Brits on here wondering why Mel Smith is leading this East German military band?


Good Lord! So 'tis!  Shocked
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Clym Angus
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« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2010, 07:25:57 pm »

Anyone else see The German Apple Front on 'Paul Merton In Europe'? A fine bunch of surrealist Anti-Nazi Germans who use the Nazi aesthetic in a manner intended to demean, embarrass and ridicule fascists.

That's f***ing brilliant. Cheesy
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Atterton
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« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2010, 09:04:27 pm »

"The question I was attempting to address was whether one could utilize the Nazi aesthetic without venturing into the territory of Dieselpunk, which was something there was a bit of discussion about.  My short answer was yes, because you could detach the aesthetic from the technology."

Yes, but then you could shove any aesthetic into the victorian era. That doesn´t mean it will seem appropiate and not shoehorned in. The new Sherlock Holmes movie has the villain walk around a bit in a SS-style leather coat, it seems rather out of place.
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Mr Addams
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« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2010, 09:34:12 pm »


Yes, but then you could shove any aesthetic into the victorian era. That doesn´t mean it will seem appropiate and not shoehorned in. The new Sherlock Holmes movie has the villain walk around a bit in a SS-style leather coat, it seems rather out of place.


Another case in point could be the car from the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film.
To me it looked like an oversize 1930's/1940's Roadster, not a "High Tech" Victorian Horseless carriage.

Apparently I was not the only person to think this. The production defended the design by stating that all of the decoration on the car was accurate Victorian ornamentation.



My reply to that would be that a 1930's aesthetic with Accurate Victorian ornamentation does not make a Victorian object, It makes a 1930's car with Victorian bits stuck to it.

 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:21:59 pm by Mr Addams » Logged
Hikaro Takayama
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« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2010, 12:04:50 am »

And about the aesthetics of the Third Reich in general: Rammstein (the band) is toying with them as well and as far as I know, there has been negligible amounts of controversy because of it.

I agree with you about the WWI/Franco-Prussian War era stuff....

Also about Rammstein, a (American) music critic actually described their "Mutter" album as (and I qoute): "Music to invade Poland to..." Cheesy

When I was watching the Völkerball DVD, I thought (especially during the "Reise, Reise" song), "Hey! These guys have a pretty steam/diesel punk vibe going on here!"
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 01:27:13 am by Hikaro Takayama » Logged

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hardlec
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« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2010, 02:13:26 am »

Albert Speer was one of the upper level of the H####R regime and an architect of some talent.  (Taste is another matter.)

I found Speer's work to be bland-to-the-point-of-monotonous.  Perfectly proportioned mathematically.  Totally sterile. 

The Bavarian H####R also hated airships.  He personally had the Graf Zeppelin scrapped.

Whether you want to call it diesel punk or Nazi punk or spike Jones punk is debatable.  I wouldn't call it steamy, or elegant.

Now: across the channel, Mr. Churchill's style might fit into steampunk.
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neon_suntan
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« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2010, 02:35:43 am »

The Bavarian H####R also hated airships.  He personally had the Graf Zeppelin scrapped.


Yes indeed, Dr Eckener wanted to promote world peace and show that the Germans weren't scary people...

And as for Mel Smith

Smith and Jones - Nazi GeneralsDQ

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Joozey
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« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2010, 03:45:37 am »

And here's a big image with some nazi aesthetics and a really bad joke:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(right-click and "view image" makes it MUCH bigger)


Please list the author when showing their work!
This is the romantic apocalypse series of alexiuss. The guy is a genius:
http://alexiuss.deviantart.com

Another great one:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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