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Author Topic: Steampunk, Dieselpunk, what about Nuclearpunk?  (Read 836 times)
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« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2009, 12:58:05 AM »

As long as I never see something called discopunk.  Grin but I don't think that's likely.
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« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2009, 03:41:45 AM »

Steam> diesel> atom> cyber.

Hey, this is pretty good!  A punk-spectrum!  Quick, someone with artistic talent, draw us a punk-spectrum!

didn't an issue of Steampunk magazine cover this progression?
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« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2009, 06:49:28 AM »

I honestly don't view much of a distinction between dieselpunk and atompunk, if any at all.

I've seen these sorts of arguments emerge with steampunk as well, by those who feel that clockwork, coal, gas the arrival of electricity and the like aren't adequately represented.  Sure, "steam" is a central element of steampunk, but it's not all there is to it.  Steampunk as a term is broader, in my opinion, than some would like to believe.

The same is true for dieselpunk.  Diesel fuel may be a central element, but the time period it encompasses includes the early days of space travel, nuclear weapons and power, and the signature styles of the 1940s and 1950s.  If steampunk is a subculture which reflects a future that never was, and can include everything from Tesla coils (reflecting the advent of harnessing electricity) to airships (going beyond the infancy of flight in that time period), why can't dieselpunk ultimately do the same with nuclear power (rooted in the 1940s, courtesy of the atom bomb) and spaceships (which, again, has its roots in a definitively dieselpunk time period)?  Since when were alien invaders, rockets to the moon, irradiated mutants, and fears of M.A.D. not part of dieselpunk?

I don't see an innate or desperate "need" for the term "atompunk."  It merely focuses on certain elements of dieselpunk, just as clockpunk focuses on certain elements of steampunk, and biopunk focuses on certain elements of cyberpunk.  These terms have their uses, but I'd be hard-pressed to call them separate subcultures.  I see them as falling under the umbrellas of the "big three."

Then what about Magepunk?
O-o
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« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2009, 07:01:46 AM »

Dieselpunk is essentially the 50's pulp imagery of America which at the time was gradually becoming a much stronger influence around the world. Fallout 3 is set in a DIESELPUNK world, the atomic war was something occurring in peoples minds at the time (50's)!
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« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2009, 08:48:05 AM »

See I see dieselpunk as immediatly after steam, almost as soon as Victoria died, up to the end of the second world war, the atom kicks in, and takes us right up o about the 80s. We do sadly now live in a cyber age.
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« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2009, 09:01:31 AM »

Dieselpunk should allow for the same capacity to understand how a mechanism works, but lack the individuality and attention to aesthetic detail of steampunk. A mass produced clockwork wristwatch as opposed to an individual pocket watch. G plan furniture not Chippendale, bought as seen, utilitarian made to not made to order and as beatifil as functional.
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« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2009, 09:33:23 AM »

Then what about Magepunk?
O-o

I can only assume Magepunk is some aspect of, or alternate name for Myth/Arcane "punk."

Anyway, I feel any such thing would be covered better under names like Steam-Fantasy, Cyber-Fantasy...as both allow for far wider ranging areas, and also a lack of jumping on the "-punk" band wagon, in this sense it would be the literary meaning of Fantasy as magic/myth/arcane, rather than a catch all for any weird and wonderful creation.

That just makes more logical sense to me from a literary perspective.


On the more general topic I don't really feel strongly linking time periods with the names work at all.

If you do adhere to the view that the names should be linked to the time period the question that becomes raised is where does it end? ... steam-diesel-atomic-cyber ... why not continue backwards, maybe neoclassic-punk for the 18th Century, baroque-punk for the 17th, da Vinci-punk for the 16th. Or go forwards, lightspeed-punk perhaps?

Not to mention the number of blurred lines, what with the steam engine existing in the 1600s, steel existing in the victorian era...etc.
 Undecided

My love of Low Fantasy settings with steam/clockwork/other power sourced technology, results in me not requiring a real world time scale at all anyway.

The "punk" in Cyberpunk is there to mean the breakdown or radical change in the social order within the setting, and this is something which to me just doesn't exist to any great extent within any of the other supposed -punks, so I guess my whole position from the very root is slanted against it.
 Cheesy
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 09:55:44 AM by Nex » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2009, 09:59:37 AM »

Then what about Magepunk?
O-o

I can only assume Magepunk is some aspect of, or alternate name for Myth/Arcane "punk."

Anyway, I feel any such thing would be covered better under names like Steam-Fantasy, Cyber-Fantasy...as both allow for far wider ranging areas, and also a lack of jumping on the "-punk" band wagon, in this sense it would be the literary meaning of Fantasy as magic/myth/arcane, rather than a catch all for any weird and wonderful creation.

That just makes more logical sense to me from a literary perspective.

Thank you! I am so glade someone explained this too me. One of my associates at the local community college explained that magepunk was like fashion and starting Subculture which people dressed as magic users with "attitude" and zippers, lots of zippers.  Perhaps s/he was wrong.
 
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« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2009, 02:32:08 PM »

I don't believe in Atomicpunk or Nuclearpunk

Steam->Diesel->Punk->The Now->Cyber->Unusual dystopian landscape->Major event->Great Utopian paradise!

Sorry, I'm a little bit tired
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« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2009, 07:15:38 PM »

Then what about Magepunk?

Below are a few examples harvested from
the 4,680 hits currently indexed by Google
for the term 'Magepunk' :

"...(S)ubjecting magic to the scientific method
and industrialization has allowed society to
progress to something approximating the near
future in terms of technology."

~ Crownbreaker

~ from :

Magepunk
@NaNoWriMo
http://tinyurl.com/yc6krag

" Magepunk is technology powered by magic (OR
magic powered by technology). It has been added
and removed from Wikipedia several times."

~ Mircea

Quote:

" Magepunk is a current of high fantasy set in
worlds similar to other Cyberpunk sub-genres
except that magic substitutes technology. Many
are set roughly at an age similar to ours
(chronologically) but advances in technology
have been dwarfed by advances in magic. "

Quote:

" Magepunk is urban fantasy that has the gritty,
dark, neo-noir aesthetic of cyberpunk. An example
of magepunk is Simon Green's Nightside series.

Magepunk differs from fantasy-noir in that it can
take a more futuristic approach and combine magic
into a world that would otherwise be strictly
cyberpunk. "

@MageForge
" Where Technomancers Gather "
http://tinyurl.com/yhk4d5w

A (by-no-means exhaustive  ) bibliography :

Magic, Inc. (1940) by Robert A. Heinlein
Operation Chaos (1971) by Poul Anderson.
The Siege of Wonder (1976) by Mark S. Geston
Murder and Magic (1979) by Randall Garrett.
Changeling (1980) by Roger Zelazny.
Lord Darcy Investigates (1981) by Randall Garrett.
The Saga of Pliocene Exile (1981-) by Julian May.
So You Want to be a Wizard (1983) by Diane Duane.
Deep Wizardry (1985) by Diane Duane.
Count Zero (1986) by William Gibson.
Wizard's Bane (1989) by Rick Cook.
Wizardry Compiled (1989) by Rick Cook.
High Wizardry (1990) by Diane Duane.
A Wizard Abroad (1993) by Diane Duane.
The Wizardry Consulted (1995) by Rick Cook.
The Wizardry Quested (1996) by Rick Cook.
Operation Otherworld (1999) by Poul Anderson.
The Wizardry Capitalized (2000) by Rick Cook.
Operation Luna (2000) by Poul Anderson.
The Wizard's Dilemma (2001) by Diane Duane.
A Wizard Alone (2002) by Diane Duane.
Wizard's Holiday (2003) by Diane Duane.
Something from the Nightside (2003) by Simon Green.
Agents of Light and Darkness (2003) by Simon Green.
The Atrocity Archive (2004) by Charles Stross.
Nightingale's Lament (2004) by Simon Green.
Hex and the City (2005) by Simon Green.
Paths not Taken (2005) by Simon Green.
Wizards at War (2005) by Diane Duane.
Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth (2006) by Simon Green.
A Walk on the Nightside (2006) by Simon Green.
Hell to Pay (2006) by Simon Green.
The Jennifer Morgue (2006) by Charles Stross.
The Court of the Air (2007) by Stephen Hunt.
The Unnatural Inquirer (2008) by Simon Green.
The Kingdom Beyond the Waves (2008) by Stephen Hunt.
Just Another Judgement Day (2009) by Simon Green.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 12:17:57 AM by Khem Caigan » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2009, 12:05:37 AM »

Ooookay, gonna go through some of those quotes...

Quote
Magepunk is technology powered by magic (OR
magic powered by technology).

That has existed since the dawn of time and is simply called "Fantasy" to my mind.
 Undecided

Quote
Magepunk is a current of high fantasy set in
worlds similar to other Cyberpunk sub-genres
except that magic substitutes technology.

HIGH Fantasy...okay this person don't even know their Fantasy styles never mind possible "-punk" genres.
High fantasy is the classical epic fantasy, core forces of good fighting the big overarching big bad, Lord of the Rings would probably be the easiest example. This to me is in no way compatible with any themes of Cyberpunk (and as such can't be compatible with any of its supposed sub-genres).

LOW Fantasy on the other hand is often a lot darker, grittier, and more importantly focuses more on the common people and their struggles rather than heroic nigh on invincible adventurers hacking their way through the evil horde. Low Fantasy has the cultural aspects that allow for the themes brought up in Cyberpunk to be made use of, and it is within this area of Fantasy you will find what I would call Steam-Fantasy. Which often has technology and magic at odds and occasionally working together to create wonderful new technologies.

Quote
Magepunk is urban fantasy that has the gritty,
dark, neo-noir aesthetic of cyberpunk.

That would be "Low Fantasy" again.

Quote
Magepunk differs from fantasy-noir in that it can
take a more futuristic approach and combine magic
into a world that would otherwise be strictly
cyberpunk.

Nothing has ever stopped Fantasy being restricted to a "medieval type" swords and sorcery world. Infact there are numerous Fantasy works that exist in contemporary settings, or indeed futuristic settings. They are still just Fantasy, or more specifically pointed out as Science-Fantasy, or I suppose possibly Cyber-Fantasy, in the futuristic examples.

Thank you very much for those links and quotes Khem Caigan, because it has just made me even more solid in my view that "magepunk" is nothing but people who like fantasy but don't want to be abused for being geeks trying to grab onto the whole "-punk" thing like that will somehow make them cooler/more accepted than someone who says "I read Fantasy."
Cheesy
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 12:09:57 AM by Nex » Logged

Mr Peter Harrow, Esq
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« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2009, 12:18:49 AM »

Not sure Charlie Stross is Magepunk, the Laundry Books are actually classic British spy fiction meets Cthulhu, think Ian Fleming's The Mountains Of Madness, or HP Lovecrafts Thunderball. Charlie certainly hasn't indicated he considers this Magepunk, he didnt even realise that one of his worlds in the Family Trade Universe is steampunk.

Magic is a synonymn of mathematics in the laundry universe, the protagonist Bob was recruited after nearly destroying Wolverhampton with a computer programme.

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« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2009, 01:04:40 AM »

Magic is a synonym of mathematics in the laundry universe, the protagonist Bob was recruited after nearly destroying Wolverhampton with a computer programme.

Bob and Henry ( and Charlie, I suspect) would
all have gotten on like Burning Houses - see :

The Second Book of Occult Philosophy,
or Magick
; by Henry Cornelius Agrippa.

BOOK II.
Chapter i.


Of the necessity of Mathematicall learning,
and of the many wonderfull works which are
done by Mathematicall Arts only.

http://tinyurl.com/yakhcfh
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« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2009, 01:47:44 AM »

Howabout frothingatthemouthfedupwithallthesepunks-punk? Wink (Had to put the hyphen in to make it more legible... Wink )

As long as I never see something called discopunk.  Grin but I don't think that's likely.

Discopunk! I'll make an exception for that Grin

(I have made a pair of earrings for when steamrave takes off... Wink )
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« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2009, 01:59:30 AM »

"Thank you! I am so glade someone explained this too me. One of my associates at the local community college explained that magepunk was like fashion and starting Subculture which people dressed as magic users with "attitude" and zippers, lots of zippers.  Perhaps s/he was wrong."

I have a sneaking suspicion that this is related to that silly term Stitchpunk that some started using about the movie 9.
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« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2009, 07:24:50 AM »

Stitchpunk is just wrong, if one is obsessed by sewing one is a seampunk.

Merely using magic does not mean something is Magepunk, nor is Magic as Technology new, Clarke's Law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". The correct term is fantasy or one of the subgenres of fantasy. Steampunk was created as a term for something which existed but to which no description existed. Magepunk on the other hand is trying to invent a term for something which is already well described, and is unneccessary.
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« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2009, 08:57:00 AM »

Huh, well now, what will be our future?

Greenpunk
Naturepunk
Recyclerpunk
Organopunk
Sustainapunk
Ninnypunk
Whinerpunk


AARRRRGGG!!! ENOUGH!
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« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2009, 12:44:37 PM »

Merely using magic does not mean something is Magepunk, nor is Magic as Technology new, Clarke's Law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". The correct term is fantasy or one of the subgenres of fantasy.

I agree - merely using magic does
not make something Magepunk.

That is why I provided something
in the way of a bibliography.

I personally don't think that the
term fantasy quite covers the
efforts of some of these authors -
and so, once again, we get into
the liminal and chimerical, with
terms such as science-fiction
and science-fantasy.

As for "Clarke's Law" ( and Niven's
Corollary < Any sufficiently advanced
magic is indistinguishable from
technology >), see :

Re: The Brass Goggles Occult Society
« Reply #370 on: April 01, 2009 »
http://tinyurl.com/yfagorf

The notion of 'Magic as Technology'
precedes Clarke by millennia.
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« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2009, 01:06:07 PM »

the thing about the technopunks is that they can be practically applied, 'Magepunk' does not meet this criteria. Stage magic, which is a practical application is definitely steampunk due to Maskeleyne and Priest.
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« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2009, 01:42:37 PM »

Huh, well now, what will be our future?

Greenpunk
Naturepunk
Recyclerpunk
Organopunk
Sustainapunk
Ninnypunk
Whinerpunk


AARRRRGGG!!! ENOUGH!
My dear Reverend, it is a matter
of lifestyle in a world of many
voices. "Let a hundred flowers
bloom and a hundred schools
of thought contend", and all that.

Or, better still -

"We're Here!
We're <n-punk>!
Get used to it!"

Please pass the orange juice;
thanks.
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" Ships and sails proper for the heavenly air should be
fashioned. Then there will also be people, who do not
shrink from the vastness of space. "

~ Johannes Kepler, letter to Galileo Galilei, 1609.
Khem Caigan
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« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2009, 01:51:52 PM »

The thing about the technopunks is that they can be practically applied, 'Magepunk' does not meet this criteria. Stage magic, which is a practical application is definitely steampunk due to Maskeleyne and Priest.

Once again, you quite fail to take
my point, and so we must simply
agree to disagree.

As for stage magic and the art of
deception : magic, machinery and
trickery are etymologically related.

Magic and machines share exactly
the same ambiguity, the idea of a trick
or a counterfeit, of machination and
scheming, of ingenious engines and
cunning devices - the device is devious.

And speaking of engines :

" The word engine obviously comes from
the Latin ingenium (from in and gigno,
genui, to produce), which signifies
primarily the innate natural quality
of a thing, then of a person, the
natural capacity or disposition, and
very soon in Latin even, talents,
abilities, and specially the faculty
of invention, genius, and wit; and so
an engine signifies properly a machine
or other means skillfully adapted to
effect a purpose, and an engineer is
one skilled in constructing engines
or devising plans. "

~ from :

Significant Etymology;
or, Roots, Stems, and Branches
of the English Language

by James Mitchell
Download@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/lafaqg

It is not so great a stretch, then, from
a  wizard ( "wise man" ) to an engineer,
working at 'natural magic', or physics :

"Having observed the forces of all things
natural and celestial and having examined
by painstaking investigation the sympathy
among those things, we bring into the open
powers hidden and stored away in nature;
thus magic links lower things as if they
were magical enticements ( note the
etymological connection between a gin/
snare/trap and an engine ) to the gifts of
higher things... so that astonishing miracles
thereby occur, not so much as by art as
by nature to which - as nature works
these wonders - this art of magic offers
herself as handmaiden."

~ Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa

"Nature is a magician, as Plotinus and
Synesius say, everywhere baiting traps with
particular foods for particular objects. . .
The farmer prepares his field and seeds for
gifts from heaven and uses various grafts
to prolong life in his plant and change it
to a new and better species. The physician,
the scientist and the surgeon bring about
similar effects in our bodies...

The philosopher, who is learned in natural
science and astronomy and whom we are
wont rightly to call a magician, likewise
implants heavenly things in earthly objects
by means of certain alluring charms used
at the right moment."

~ Marsilio Ficino.

The idea that magic has anything at all
to do with 'supernatural' power is a
recent one - originally, the word simply
referred to power, and ability. Magic
and mechanism are cognate terms; the
magus is one who is 'able to get things
done'
.

" Vodou isn't like that," Beauvoir said.
"It isn't concerned with notions of
salvation and transcendence. What it's
about is getting things done. "

~ from :

Count Zero
by William Gibson
Chapter 13,
'With Both Hands'
Preview@GoogleBooks
http://tinyurl.com/yjyhmze
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 08:26:08 PM by Khem Caigan » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2009, 04:01:59 PM »

Well, it doesn't need to be practical, or to even focus on something that exists at all, to still be legitimate.

I think I get where you're coming from Khem but I really just can't see enough of a difference in "magepunk" to separate it from Fantasy or Science-Fantasy.

To me in terms of literary genres it feels like Cyberpunk is to Sci-Fi what Low Fantasy is to High Fantasy, and then Science-Fantasy is a mixture of any aspects of those two areas.

Steampunk is slightly different as it sits in that weird genre of alternate history.

However my preference for the wider genre names rather than the million and one sub-genres, or "-punks" if that's what the cool kids want to call them these days, probably comes from the fact that I like the vast majority of things contained within many of these sub-genres.

If I only liked one tiny little part and really felt a strong need to be able to link that to its own name because I disliked everything else, then I guess I would be more supportive of sub-genres...I'd still think naming it "-punk" would be stupid though.
 Cheesy
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« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2009, 06:26:15 PM »

Hear, hear Nex.

The entirety of fiction is available like it has  never been before, we do not have to pin down genres, subgenres and sub, sub genres down and give them a little label to show what they are. If people want to claim magepunk as a fashion statement, fine, but it lacks a coherent and consistent approach to define the list of literary works as anything other than fiction, and if it is good fiction I will read it. I dislike urban fantasy as a sub-genre, but love Mike Carey's Felix Castor books, because they are well written, and make the judgement not on the label but on the contents.

Labelling The Laundrey books of Charlie's as Magepunk will make him laugh next time I see him. He doesn't work that way at all, if anything they really fall within the sub-genre Classic British Spy Fiction, any fantasy element is secondary and was intended to be so.
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« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2009, 07:49:16 PM »

Hmmm, WindmillPunk...

 Hurrah, thats another one I can add to the list of -punks that I can label myself with. So far I am steampunk, dieselpunk, shamanpunk (voodoopunk?), windpunk, solarpunk and good oldfashioned crustiepunk.
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« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2009, 09:27:13 PM »

Labelling The Laundry books of Charlie's as Magepunk will make him laugh next time I see him. He doesn't work that way at all, if anything they really fall within the sub-genre Classic British Spy Fiction, any fantasy element is secondary and was intended to be so.

I'm sure that Charlie is better able to
appreciate the vicissitudes of audience
reception
than many.

Please send him my regards - I enjoy
all of his work.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 09:46:43 PM by Khem Caigan » Logged

" Ships and sails proper for the heavenly air should be
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