Lest we forget

[Lucius Voltaic]

And, Sir Nikolas, I agree with your appreciation of human life, but I bristle at your cavalier use of the phrase "throwing away lives". I won't get into the politics of current wars, but it disturbs me greatly to hear your implication--"still throwing away lives..."--that those who died in the Great War died for nothing.

Please pardon the delay, I've written and re-written this several times.

You're welcome to your opinion. Ordinarily, I'd ask you to afford me the same courtesy. This time, however, I've got to concede that you're right, to say that the lives lost in the first world war were wasted was out-of-order, and I'm deeply sorry that I offended you.

If you want to discuss the matter further, please don't hesitate to PM me.

Thank you for such a courteous response. I may or may not PM you, but, in either case, rest assured I harbor you no ill will. 

[The Kernel]

If I may interject, there also may be a cultural issue here.
In the UK it is usual for lives lost during WW1, WW2 and subsequent conflicts to be described as "wasted" or "cut short", and is often extended to include those left disabled in body and mind.
This is particularly so during religious services, including military rememberance services.
The meaning is to acknowlage the loss caused by early death or perminant disability, it does not belittle the sacrifice they made in any way (if anything it is intended to add emphasis the the level of sacrifice), or to denigrate the cause for which they made the ultimate sacrifice, and would not normally be given political overtones, even when relating to current conflicts.
I speak as an ex-serviceman; one one who wears his poppy with pride.

[greensteam]

In the course of burrowing in forgotten cupboards in the Glasgow City Chambers (I am a councillor) I recently discovered a huge file that turned out to be the visitor book for the US Red Cross services club in Glasgow in WW2. It had lain untouched all that time. The Lord Provost here arranged a little civic event for the US Consul and a Lt Col from the USAF to come and hand it over officially to the city archivist.  Everyone was thrilled to find this interesting record of all those (Mainly male) people who passed through the city on their way predominantly to the D-day landings.

In the course of the meeting the conversation turned to public attitudes to service people here and in the states. In Scotland it is broadly the general opinion across most political viewpoints that the original decision to go into Afghanistan and Iraq were seriously flawed. BUT, all support the troops utterly both there and in their needs on return. It seems this division between support (or not) for the political decision and supporting the people who carry it out is less usual in the USA, where a more unified standpoint is more or less expected.

On a practical basis this results here in many people both contributing to the red poppy appeal and also wearing a white (peace) poppy. Having been  formerly married to an army man, I feel very strongly that we seriously lack the necessary infrastructure in the UK to support returning service people adequately. This is summed up for me in Kipling's famous poem:

Tommy
by Rudyard Kipling  (1865– 1936)

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

   
!Notes
"Tommy Atkins," or just "Tommy," is the name popularly given to the typical British soldier.
red-coat -- an old fashioned term for a soldier (they used to wear red coats)
public-house -- a pub, drinking house
publican -- the pub owner
stalls -- best seats near the stage
blackguards -- ruffians (pronounced "blaggards")
the Widow -- here - Queen Victoria

 

[Mechanic]

I've always preferred:

"Blighters"

The House is crammed: tier beyond tier they grin
And cackle at the show, while prancing ranks
Of harlots shrill the chorus, drunk with din;
‘We’re sure the Kaiser loves our dear old Tanks!’

I’d like to see a tank come down the stalls,
Lurching to rag-time tunes, or ‘Home sweet Home’,
And there’d be no more jokes in music-halls
To mock the riddled corpses round Bapaume.

Siegfried Sassoon, M.C.

Gay, pacifist and put up for a V.C.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

BUT, all support the troops utterly both there and in their needs on return. It seems this division between support (or not) for the political decision and supporting the people who carry it out is less usual in the USA, where a more unified standpoint is more or less expected.

I am happy to report that this situation has improved dramatically in the USA. The returning veterans from Vietnam were treated abominably by the general public. The Gulf War, Iraq, and Afghanistan soldiers are for the most part universally appreciated and supported, regardless of a person's opinion of the wars. A soldier does his duty, follows orders, and is not responsible for the decisions of higher ups. As regards "following orders," it should be noted that post-Vietnam, a U.S. soldier is no longer prosecuted for failing to follow an order which he, as an individual, finds morally repugnant, i.e. being ordered to kill civilians.
War is terrible, but seems to be a common practice of humans back to the beginning of recorded history..in fact, the first example of recorded history is an account of War.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we should grow too fond of it." -Robert E. Lee

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." George S. Patton, Jr.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and of tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

~Thistlewaite

[HAC]

BUT, all support the troops utterly both there and in their needs on return. It seems this division between support (or not) for the political decision and supporting the people who carry it out is less usual in the USA, where a more unified standpoint is more or less expected.

I am happy to report that this situation has improved dramatically in the USA. The returning veterans from Vietnam were treated abominably by the general public. The Gulf War, Iraq, and Afghanistan soldiers are for the most part universally appreciated and supported, regardless of a person's opinion of the wars. A soldier does his duty, follows orders, and is not responsible for the decisions of higher ups. As regards "following orders," it should be noted that post-Vietnam, a U.S. soldier is no longer prosecuted for failing to follow an order which he, as an individual, finds morally repugnant, i.e. being ordered to kill civilians.
War is terrible, but seems to be a common practice of humans back to the beginning of recorded history..in fact, the first example of recorded history is an account of War.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we should grow too fond of it." -Robert E. Lee

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." George S. Patton, Jr.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and of tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

~Thistlewaite

I found out PDQ that when in the thick of it, one wasn't fighting for King or Country, but for your mates who were in it with you. You all looked out for one another..

Cheers
Harold

[Lucius Voltaic]

I've always preferred:

"Blighters"

The House is crammed: tier beyond tier they grin
And cackle at the show, while prancing ranks
Of harlots shrill the chorus, drunk with din;
‘We’re sure the Kaiser loves our dear old Tanks!’

I’d like to see a tank come down the stalls,
Lurching to rag-time tunes, or ‘Home sweet Home’,
And there’d be no more jokes in music-halls
To mock the riddled corpses round Bapaume.

Siegfried Sassoon, M.C.

Gay, pacifist and put up for a V.C.

That's quite a poem.

[Count Alexander]

I salute you Sarn't Major and to all the other Veterans on this board. I hope your loved ones deployed will come home safe and sound. In my due time I will soon have to fight the fight, until then I can only support those who came before me.

Hooah...
*S*

[Lucius Voltaic]

I salute you Sarn't Major and to all the other Veterans on this board. I hope your loved ones deployed will come home safe and sound. In my due time I will soon have to fight the fight, until then I can only support those who came before me.

Hooah...

Um...what's with the strikethrough?

[Count Alexander]

((I guess putting <> with an s in between strikes through it all, excuse my noobish posting))

Here is mah brother and I.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

I salute you Sarn't Major and to all the other Veterans on this board. I hope your loved ones deployed will come home safe and sound. In my due time I will soon have to fight the fight, until then I can only support those who came before me.

Hooah...
*S*

Heard, Understood, Acknowledged!
An old Cavalry horse, put out to pasture, still pricks up his ears at the distant sound of guns, and paws the ground. Be safe, troop, and watch your six! Thank you, ( and thank your brother for me, please,) for your service! 

*****salute******

~Thistlewaite

[Lucius Voltaic]

Also, I'm not sure what I think about children observing holidays like this. On the one hand, it's good that the sacrifices of the troops should be remembered, but, on the other hand, do the children understand what they're celebrating? In general, I don't think they're even able to understand it, and, of those that perhaps could, few do. In fact, I don't think anyone could fully understand it unless he (or she) is a veteran himself, though thinking adults can achieve a meaningful approximation.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

In fact, I don't think anyone could fully understand it unless he (or she) is a veteran himself, though thinking adults can achieve a meaningful approximation.

Quite so. The meaningful approximation, also, would be analogous to reading and understanding a book about "swimming," but never actually going into the water, and doing a Channel swim.

 I am of the opinion that the system described in Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers should be implemented...that being, one is not required to enter into the Service to defend one's country, but only those that have done are allowed to vote.

~T

[Lucius Voltaic]

In fact, I don't think anyone could fully understand it unless he (or she) is a veteran himself, though thinking adults can achieve a meaningful approximation.

Quite so. The meaningful approximation, also, would be analogous to reading and understanding a book about "swimming," but never actually going into the water, and doing a Channel swim.

 I am of the opinion that the system described in Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers should be implemented...that being, one is not required to enter into the Service to defend one's country, but only those that have done are allowed to vote.

~T

Ooh, that's very interesting...I've been meaning to read Starship Troopers; now I see I'll have to get around to it.

[Mechanic]

Quite so. The meaningful approximation, also, would be analogous to reading and understanding a book about "swimming," but never actually going into the water, and doing a Channel swim.

My war was a rather cold one and thank the gods did not involve combat but I learned enough to appreciate exactly how much I didn't know about war. Call it reading the books and doing a lot of laps in the pool followed by a few dips in the Channel but never being asked to do the swim.

Also, I'm not sure what I think about children observing holidays like this. On the one hand, it's good that the sacrifices of the troops should be remembered, but, on the other hand, do the children understand what they're celebrating?

My daughter said the other day that she understood what Remembrance Day was about but found it very boring. We reminded her that if it wasn't for the Veterans she literally would not be here today. I'm more of the opinion that we should expose kids to the idea, not expecting them to grasp the full import, but with the goal of building a foundation of understanding for their adult life.

I've been meaning to read Starship Troopers; now I see I'll have to get around to it.

He certainly has some very seductive ideas. I loved the book but I suggest you read it very critically. Voerhoeven's movie version highlights some of the more interesting criticisms of Starship Troopers

[Gazongola]

In fact, I don't think anyone could fully understand it unless he (or she) is a veteran himself, though thinking adults can achieve a meaningful approximation.

Quite so. The meaningful approximation, also, would be analogous to reading and understanding a book about "swimming," but never actually going into the water, and doing a Channel swim.

 I am of the opinion that the system described in Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers should be implemented...that being, one is not required to enter into the Service to defend one's country, but only those that have done are allowed to vote.

~T

I disagree. There are those that do their every day jobs that support a country just as much as any soldier. I may not be a veteran or have served in any wars, but I show my appreciation nonetheless, and I don't have to understand it to know that my support is right.

[Burr]

It'd be a good time for them to repeat some of the more tasteful documentaries, for the education of adult and child alike.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

A considerable number of countries make the point moot by requiring military service of their citizens, in many cases this applies only to males, although some, notably Israel, require it of all...36 months for males, 24 for females. Switzerland requires about a year of actual active service, but afterward you keep your issued firearm,serve more or less in the capacity of a reservist for a few weeks a year, and are subject to call-up in an emergency until the age of 50 ( 55 for officers.) The requirements vary greatly from country to country, and of course many countries have no compulsory service. Interestingly Robert A. Heinlein, whom I referenced earlier, had this to say about compulsory military service;

Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!
-Robert A. Heinlein, Guest of Honor Speech at the 29th World Science Fiction Convention, Seattle, Washington (1961)

This is why I opined that Service should be voluntary, for I also believe that compulsory service constitutes, by definition, "involuntary servitude," i.e. slavery. Gazongola, I respect your right to your opinion, also, and agree that there are many jobs which are important to the successful administration of a country...but I ( respectfully ) disagree that " those who do their everyday jobs support a country just as much as any soldier." Whether one has been in actual combat or not, when one has voluntarily placed himself ( or herself) in military service, one has indicated a willingness to "put one's life on the line" for the country. Some, of course, actually do put their lives on the line in actual combat, but all are subject to the possibility of same....one does not know upon entering service what one's assignment may ultimately be. It is simply a matter of bravery. Being a soldier is not the same as being a greengrocer, Sir. Now, I would perhaps make exception as regards the right to vote for those civilian occupations where life and limb are put in harm's way for the sake of the public weal, such as police and fire fighters, and I'm sure other examples may come to mind, but I do like Mr. Heinlein's thinking in that those who have risked all should have a greater say than those who have risked nothing, but only reaped the benefits of the bravery and self-sacrifice of others. I am perfectly content to " agree to disagree" on this issue, and in any case, I am sure that such a system will never be implemented in either the USA or the UK, so I'm sure my point is moot...merely a mental exercise.

Yours,
Thistlewaite

[Gazongola]

A considerable number of countries make the point moot by requiring military service of their citizens, in many cases this applies only to males, although some, notably Israel, require it of all...36 months for males, 24 for females. Switzerland requires about a year of actual active service, but afterward you keep your issued firearm,serve more or less in the capacity of a reservist for a few weeks a year, and are subject to call-up in an emergency until the age of 50 ( 55 for officers.) The requirements vary greatly from country to country, and of course many countries have no compulsory service. Interestingly Robert A. Heinlein, whom I referenced earlier, had this to say about compulsory military service;

Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!
-Robert A. Heinlein, Guest of Honor Speech at the 29th World Science Fiction Convention, Seattle, Washington ( 1961 )

This is why I opined that Service should be voluntary, for I also believe that compulsory service constitutes, by definition, "involuntary servitude," i.e. slavery. Gazongola, I respect your right to your opinion, also, and agree that there are many jobs which are important to the successful administration of a country...butI ( respectfully ) disagree that " those who do their everyday jobs support a country just as much as any soldier." Whether one has been in actual combat or not, when one has voluntarily placed himself ( or herself) in military service, one has indicated a willingness to "put one's life on the line" for the country. Some, of course, actually do put their lives on the line in actual combat, but all are subject to the possibility of same....one does not know upon entering service what one's assignment may ultimately be. It is simply a matter of bravery. Being a soldier is not the same as being a greengrocer, Sir. Now, I would perhaps make exception as regards the right to vote for those civilian occupations where life and limb are put in harm's way for the sake of the public weal, such as police and fire fighters, and I'm sure other examples may come to mind, but I do like Mr. Heinlein's thinking in that those who have risked all should have a greater say than those who have risked nothing, but only reaped the benefits of the bravery and self-sacrifice of others. I am perfectly content to " agree to disagree" on this issue, and in any case, I am sure that such a system will never be implemented in either the USA or the UK, so I'm sure my point is moot...merely a mental exercise.

Yours,
Thistlewaite

There is only one thing stopping me from joining the armed forces. I am a pacifist. And being a green grocer may not be the same as being a soldier, but it is no less important, so therefore a person should have no less right to vote. I am no less brave than you and nor are many other people, but the fact that they do not choose to put their life in to service should not be an issue. I am of the opinion that there should be no need for armed forces in the first place. And what of those soldiers who fought for control and opression, in many countries past. I do however appreciate you may have this stand point as coming from a military background, but I feel that the members of our armed forces recieve as much if not more respect than any other in any line of work, and I think that gratitude is more than anyone should need. After all, it is selflesness that one fights for ones country, and a selfless person generally has no desire to wield any more power than any other.

[Burr]

Considering what the American people did (and various other people's of the world) did during the empire days when they were deprived of a vote and control of their lives and government I don't see anyone putting up with that for long.

At least this time it won't be redcoats copping it.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

There are (at least) two occupations within military service which come immediately to my mind, occupations which could (and have) been performed by those who are dedicated, confirmed pacifists.
These supremely important functions are Corpsman ( Medic, generally known as "Doc" to his comrades,) and Chaplain ( referred to sometimes as "Sky Pilot.") Neither carry firearms, but their bravery is beyond question, as each performs his duties whilst under hostile fire, the Medic treating the wounded on the field of battle, and the Chaplain crawling forward to administer Last Rites to a dying soldier.

I do hope your pacifism may never be tested, as one never knows for sure until and unless their life, or the lives of their loved ones, are threatened. I for the most part agree with and applaud your sentiments...believe me, no one values Peace more than the professional soldier.

~T

[Burr]

In some European countries with compulsory military service they have positions to allow pacifists to do service as well.

In WW2 there were many brave pacifist stretcher bearers that saved many lives, some of them were decorated for bravery too.

[Count Alexander]

There are (at least) two occupations within military service which come immediately to my mind, occupations which could (and have) been performed by those who are dedicated, confirmed pacifists.
These supremely important functions are Corpsman ( Medic, generally known as "Doc" to his comrades,) and Chaplain ( referred to sometimes as "Sky Pilot.") Neither carry firearms, but their bravery is beyond question, as each performs his duties whilst under hostile fire, the Medic treating the wounded on the field of battle, and the Chaplain crawling forward to administer Last Rites to a dying soldier.

I do hope your pacifism may never be tested, as one never knows for sure until and unless their life, or the lives of their loved ones, are threatened. I for the most part agree with and applaud your sentiments...believe me, no one values Peace more than the professional soldier.

~T

I agree, Corpmans nowadays though carry weapons, and they do you ask you if your a Conscientious objector.....

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

I did not know that. Times change, I suppose.

In point of fact, in the Scottish Regiments of WWII, the most often and most highly decorated men were not, strictly speaking, combatants. They were Pipers! There is more than one account of a Regiment on the verge of being pushed back when a Piper climbed to a high point and began to skirl "Scotland the Brave." No Scot can hear the Pipes and retreat. The effort was redoubled, and again the charge was made. Pipers were very often shot dead, as the Germans understood fully the psychological value of the Pipes. The Scottish Regiments have Regimental bands, as do other units, and the various musical instruments, horns, drums, etc. are listed on the Quartermaster's manifest as just that..."Musical Instruments." Not the Pipes, though. The Bagpipes are listed on a different sheet, along with rifles, mortars, grenades etc...as "Weapons of War."

~T

[Vienna Fahrmann]

    Bagpipes as weapons of war.  I think that is quite appropriate. 

     Vienna

    (I appreciate the military, having lots of family and friends who are veterans, of different wars and different countries).