Is there a Xenophobia towards the main stream?

[AllisterCain9]

  Im not even going to try to argue about what is SP anymore, because this is obviously based on everyones personal opinions. But it seems to me that there is a pronounced difference in opinion regarding the general public. Simpletons, common folk, non-Steam-Punk people, the main stream, lamers, ground walkers, whatever.
 
  The difference in opinions that I keep on seeing appear and reappear is the regard towards their attitude. For the duration of this text you (the reader and member of this community) will be referred to as 'punk. There is no question about whether or not punks are observed by the general public, for example at the punk gatherings, places where punks go wearing their attires, various gaming conventions to which punks are attracted to, coffee shops, car shows, parades, historical sights and museums that are subjects of punks interest. All these places represent real world locations, places in which by definition the main public rules over. These places are interesting cross over for punks. There, the punks illusion or inward thinking gets pierced. The main public is aware of the Punks, and the punks are very aware of the public. I will not mention stealthed punks, or covert punks which chose not to display their attires, are not wearing their attires at the time, or somehow chose to avoid these situations altogether.
 
  In any case, in these crossroads the public and the punks observe and measure each other. Whether they are considering the amount of ionized Brahum it will take to vaporize the onlookers using MK VI raygun, or what the hell is that person wearing, the two parties must come to terms with the other's existence. Main public is often unaware of the punk and the punks overall motives and inquires or avoids the punk altogether. The punk on the other hand is forced in a position of choice.
 
  The punk must accept the general public for what they are, and live within their society, according to the rules, but using own punk to show their personality and their view of the world. The punk embraces the society, attempts to convert their friends and relatives to the way of the punk, and considerers their main stream world, and places themselves within it. At this point, no matter how hard the punk tries, all the talk of airships, air pirates, ray-guns, and other punk stuff takes a background layer. Punk becomes a fashion statement, or a craftsmanship statement, or even some sort of personal statement.
 
  Or the punk has to deny and reject the general public. The punk refuses the society with all of its problems and all of its flaws. The punk does not wish to share their world with the general public. This manifests in one of the following ways: The punk's personality splits and divides. They are unwilling to reject the society for all of its glory, but are not able to let go of the punk either. They live two separate lives, as a "common" man on some occasions and as a punk in their private moments. Their punk parts reject and dislike the mainstream society, and refuse to show signs of their punkness. Their mainstream counterparts live the lives of anyone else. Or the punks refuse the society and withdraw as much as possible. They go to work or school with a "common" outfit and do whatever it takes for survival. However upon their return home their costume of a businessman, a server, or a slave cubical, is cast off and they put on their favorite top hat and immerse themselves in the punk.
 
  In this rift, I noticed many punks grow apart and have different opinions. Both emerges and immersers are punks, and are both fully pledged and fully decked out, considerable and truly machine oiled punks. However the difference in these philosophies draws many debates and many difference in opinion. Topics such as: Do you wear your Punk Clothing in Public, Do you have a alternative persona, Is it Victorian or is it Industrial Revolution, Is it Clothing or is it Soul that makes a punk a punk, Buying gear vs Making gear, Authentic Victorian vs Fantasy Punk, Main Stream attention to Punk: Is it good or is it bad. I believe that most heated debates have roots within this great punk divide.
 
  To simply sum it up, there are two types of punks that I have seen within this community. Those who combine and splice their punk lives with their normal lives. To them punk is a fashion or a way of life. They wear their attire in the public, and they embrace the mainstream world for what it is. Those who deny the public either split their time and efforts between punk and not punk. Living a duel set of lives as both punk-creators-inventors-dreamers and that of worker-neighboor-average-joe. The other more extreme version that only lives a punk life, withdrawing from society as much as it is possible. Those punks live the life of a punk, in the world of punk, with the "mainstream" providing them with whatever necessities. These groups of punks, who are equally and truthfully punkish, come in conflict with various topics that may or may not be directly or indirectly tied to their stand of emerges vs immersers.



AC9 out.
(This is fairly late at night, and only now did I realize of the text. You are left to your own devices to read and preferably ignore grammatical errors)

[lilibat]

This isn't the only subculture out there. Most of the public is aware of subcultures in general and steampunk seems to be more easily accepted by mundanes than most others. I have been a goth for over 2 decades, and active in sci-fi fandom for a few years longer than that. I have no use formundanes in my personal life and have certainly gotten my share of grief from them.

I'm not exactly sure what the point of your post is, but I have known plenty of people who have lived their subculture lifestyle and functioned just fine at work and within society while sacrificing none or very little of their identity thus falling outside of your extremes.

[AllisterCain9]

My point is pretty simple: I feel like the Steam Punk community, and all sub cultures have to really evaluate how they see the general public. I dont think the subcultures relationship to the main stream culture is given enough thought. From anthropological point of view I also find this topic of various groups interesting. This primal tribe, us vs them relationship that people tend to build. Im just trying to explore people's うちand さと. And what they chose to put in their in group and what they want to leave out.

[Flynn MacCallister]

Why do you feel the need to look at the world as "us" and "them"? "The public" is not one entity. It is made up of goths, car enthusiasts, alarm-clock-collectors, transvestites, career-addicts, people-with-bright-purple-hair-just-because-they-like-the-colour-purple, and a lot of those people are several of these things at the same time. Including steampunk.

Maybe people who don't dress steamy for work just... don't feel like dressing steamy for work?

If your sole and only interest and passion is steampunk, well, I think you're a special case. Even Johnny Payphone, the Man who Lives Steampunk, appears to have other interests.

It is ... a worrying oversimplification to think that We Are Steampunk and They Are The General Public. As an oversimplification, it is inherently incorrect.

[Mimsy Beaucoup]

Surely we are members of the public? How many of us are actually 'lifestylers'? Not many I am sure, it is not practical or sensible.

I find anyway that the general public do not react to a mild steamy look- I think that steampunk has the ability to just look a bit old fashioned or chap/chapess-ish. It doesn't warrent stares and comments. Of course, it depends if you you do 'dress down'.

I think to make a distinction between 'us' (and the 'us' is many fractioned and diverse) and them (who are we to judge that they aren't into some genre/ sub culture just because they look 'normal'?).

Steampunk doesn't define me, no sub culture defines me...I am what I want to be, making me just one of the many diverse and interesting members of the general public.

I think it is fine to talk about public reactions when we are dressed up/ insults we have heard (personally never heard anything nasty) as then it is 'US' who are marking ourselves out as 'different'.

To put a divide in alienates us.

[Mr Bellows]

To be different, or even to deviate slightly from what is considered "the norm" causes you to be alienated whether or not you choose.
It is then how you react to this that shows who you are.
I've spent most of my adult life "alienated" in one manner or another by various others for being "different" (read didn't like football/ didn't dress fashionably/ spoke differently, the list goes on) but it can all be summed up by a conversation I had a couple of years ago with my then gaffer;
He said "I hear you are having a problem with the other staff because you come from Birmingham" (I work in Coventry)
I replied "Problem ??, nah, they Hate me , I hate 'em back, no problem" !!!
Now, they have all gone, but I'm still there.
But to get to my point in posting this reply,
In this group, to whit, "steampunk" only have I found "acceptance", only here do I see young 'uns to Elders engaged in multiple discussions on a wide variety of subjects whilst retaining that most elusive of characteristics....mutual respect, & for the first time in aeons adrift in a sea of despair I find hope for humanity........
So I say to you good & patient reader we are defined by the "tag" or name "steampunk" & we should rejoice in this fact, even as we ridicule others (read chavs or the un-washed masses), for they are uneducated at best, stupid, intolerant & ignorant at worst.
If this makes me xenophobic then stamp it on my forehead & order me the T-shirt, I'll wear it proudly.

[Mimsy Beaucoup]

I guess it might depend on if you label yourself 'I am a steampunk' or 'I like steampunk'. I don't feel the need to call myself any label- we can rejoice in the style and ethos we choose to adopt but we are more than just that label.

I have been going to Whitby goth Weekend for many year, but I don't call myself a Goth. I am me and my interests and sub cultures are wide.

I have to agree, however, that I have never foudna  more accepting and interesting group of people than those attracted to Steampunk! Though, I am sure there are egotists and bigots and elitists among us, as there is in every sub culture and indeed every section of society.

I too have always been different-very recently, for example a lady I work with commented on my new haircut (a bob) saying she didn't expect me to go for something so conventional- whilst I have known her I have had either long straightish hair or a curly perm...hardy whacky and out there! I think I must just look a bit different! All my life I have been told I have a good dress sense- clearly I don't 'blend in' anyway!

Some drunks  called my husband and I 'classy' last saturday night- now that is the kind of 'insult' I like!

We have to stop and think though, why do we want to single ourselves out by the way we dress? If we look a certain way, we have to expect a reaction.

I think I have gone off topic....

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

I, too, have felt distinctly different from the majority of the human herd for most of my life. For the most part, I find their intellect lacking, their morals suspect, and their fashions intolerable. This is not to say that I do not do my best to get along with them...after all, no man is an island ( save, of course, for the Isle of Mann,) and one cannot exist in a vacuum. To say I have little trust or confidence in my fellow human beings, though, would be an understatement. I do not hate them. I just find them to be deficient in almost every regard. I have, for the most part, separated myself by moving to a remote area, and my interaction is kept to a bare minimum. I fully expect "society" to catastrophically collapse, and I have taken measures to see to it that I and mine are not "swept over the brink" with the rest of the lemmings in their collective rush to destruction. "Them" and "Us"....definitely...but I do not restrict it to "To be or not to be Steampunk."
There are more than likely many who have never given a thought to Steampunkery but who view the current situation as appalling, and who would be welcome to throw in with me in a crisis. Likewise, there are probably many who would consider themselves Steampunks who would, truth be told, be worse than useless in a real emergency. A plastic raygun is not going to turn back the starving zombie hordes who escape from the cities when the excrement hits the ventilator.

~Thistlewaite

[Vancouver Air Privateer]

I must agree with previous posts by Thistlewaite and Mr. Bellows. For whatever reasons, I have very often felt "alienated" from the majority of society. This used to bug me, but, at around the time I got into Steampunk, I decided that the world could go f*ck itself. I just wanted to be me. Now I tend to attract people who are more interesting to me and are better friends and people. True, 90% of the people around me think I am awkward, weird, antisocial and/or strange. And I really just don't care and I've never been more sure of myself.

 While I'm not certain of a direct "Steampunks vs. The World" scenario, I must put forth that the Steampunk community has, more than any other, the positive traits that I admire in people. You are generally not boring, capable of intelligent conversation and  intelligent thought, polite and creative. So my feelings on society and me very often overlap with my feelings on Steampunk and society.

In short, if I would be called anything I would be most proud to be called a Steampunk. And really, if we're all having fun here, why on earth does it matter what people think of us?

[Vagabond GentleMan]

I like many of ye, have been an outsider from birth.  When I reached the age of reason, it became evident that I was destined to take the road less traveled and there was no going back.

I consider myself a Steampunk currently, but yes of course, I have other interests and so 'I am Steampunk' doesn't mean that 'Steampunk is me'... when I strap on my armour to practice Historic European Martial Arts, for instance, I'm something other than Steampunk.  When I'm on a primitive skills retreat, tanning hides with brain and flintknapping knives from obsidian dressed only in a buckskin loincloth, I'm something other than Steampunk.  When at work, I'm a tattoo artist first, a Steampunk second.  My job allows me the luxury of being/dressing Steampunk any/every day, but you know, some days I feel anti-social and dress down a little because I don't want so much attention (although it never works, I'm a permanent weirdo, there's no going back, there's no hiding it.  I have no normal clothes, and even if I did, they wouldn't cover the tattoos on my hands, neck, ears, head, etc. or big piercings in ears, septum, whatever).

For me there's always an 'us' and 'them'.  Sometimes it's just 'me' and 'them'.  And furthermore, I feel it's 'us' or 'me' AGAINST 'them'.  I equate 'subculture' with 'counterculture', and the point is that it's COUNTER-(mainstream)culture!  That 'they' have been and are doing it 'wrong', and we have a responsibility to do it 'right' (understood intuitively, following an internal moral 'golden' compass ).  There is a dual hope:  First, that we gain allies through awareness, that there is an optimism regarding the individual human potential and those with half-open minds will join our ranks at least in spirit, if not in manner, and second, that we fight the (potentially futile, but nonetheless noble) battle to get rid of the culture/status quo/whatever that has failed us; failed us not as Steampunks specifically, but as humanity in general, regardless of our awareness of that fact.

And an addendum: To a greater or lesser degree (although my heart has been captured by Steampunk) I feel that all of the various subcultures (punk, goth, hippie, et. al, with few exceptions) are part of a broader 'us'.  We share similar experiences, even if the details vary.

Although I understand and deeply respect and half-agree with Thistlewaite in that we might be 'doomed to apocalypse', I am unwilling to completely relinquish the hope that we might be able to 'fix it'.  But that requires commitment.

So although it is unpopular, I do believe that there is a hierarchy of commitment.  Not a pompous ranking system, but that we are all working to change the system, and the more an individual does this on a daily tip, the more praise they deserve.
If you're a Stempunk everyday and have sacrificed the luxury of ever fitting in to mainstream society, you show others that it can be done, that you can live well outside of the system (to a greater or lesser degree) and that you're willing to make those personal sacrifices to do it.
I am, perhaps paradoxically, completely opposed to the notion of 'I am Steampunk-as-F**k' nonsense, the 'More-Steampunk-than-thou' hogwash, and the in-fighting and arrogance that harms us all more than it helps.  We are all comrades, allies, brothers-and-sisters-in-arms, and must simply accept that we are all doing the best we can, while at the same time we are all struggling to do more or do better, working towards the goal of affecting or changing society in a progressive manner.  Hoping we can make our future more like the future that should have been through our actions in the present, to paraphrase Thistlewaite from another thread.

So, essentially, one should play dress-up only until one's conscience allows one to ONLY play dress-up no longer, and the internal moral compass pushes you further.

To Miss Mimsy:  There is no doubt from your writings that you are educated and intelligent, and as the drunks said, classy.  But I daresay there are more lifestylers out here than you think, and I must admit, without disrespect, that I do take slight offense to your assertion that it's 'not practical or sensible'.  I assure you I am practical and sensible.  Well-educated, with a successful and promising career, economically stable, socially competent and socially successful, AND at the same time, a Lifestyler, or at least an irrocavable Counterculturalist.  Practical and sensible.  They are most emphatically not mutually-exclusive conditions, I absolutely assure you.

[lilibat]

To Miss Mimsy:  There is no doubt from your writings that you are educated and intelligent, and as the drunks said, classy.  But I daresay there are more lifestylers out here than you think, and I must admit, without disrespect, that I do take slight offense to your assertion that it's 'not practical or sensible'.  I assure you I am practical and sensible.  Well-educated, with a successful and promising career, economically stable, socially competent and socially successful, AND at the same time, a Lifestyler, or at least an irrocavable Counterculturalist.  Practical and sensible.  They are most emphatically not mutually-exclusive conditions, I absolutely assure you.

One of the trademarks of 'them' has always been saying you can't actually get along and do well without conforming which is utter rubbish. Yes it does take some extra work to find employment or start your own business so you have the freedom to be yourself, but there is nothing un-sensible about it.

In my 20's I was often told that I couldn't look like a freak forever and I would be embarrassed to look back at myself once I turned 40. I just turned 40, and I actually have a more extreme look than I did back then. I only wish I had the talent to do my hair like this when I was 20! It took a couple decades to hone my skills and refine my look.

I would like to point out living the lifestyle I live, while it has naturally evolved over the years somewhat, has never been something I tried to do. I like the stuff I like, I incorporate it into my life, my home and my personal appearance because I like it not because I think it will make my house more goth or more steampunk or anything, really. I do pay attention to themed rooms, which are fun, but i am not going to get anything I don't like on it's own just because it goes or will earn me more points.

[Auntie Ludmilla]

As regards practicality, I think it deepends on the line of work. I struggle a bit , as I am a landscape gardener. And although I hail from a long line of farm labourers and quarry workers, I really need my thermals and cheap, tough denim to see me through a very muddy british winter. Cement only comes out properly on a boil wash, and tweed just wouldn't survive that! I'm self employed, running my own firm, so in theory I could wear what I want..... But the though of putting makeup and a skirt on then shovelling for 10 hours is a bit daft..... Not to mention the fact that if I wore my heels at work I'd be forever spiking lawns..... Mind you, there's potential for the invention of a multi heeled lawn aerating shoe... maybe.... maybe not....

[lilibat]

As regards practicality, I think it deepends on the line of work. I struggle a bit , as I am a landscape gardener. And although I hail from a long line of farm labourers and quarry workers, I really need my thermals and cheap, tough denim to see me through a very muddy british winter. Cement only comes out properly on a boil wash, and tweed just wouldn't survive that! I'm self employed, running my own firm, so in theory I could wear what I want..... But the though of putting makeup and a skirt on then shovelling for 10 hours is a bit daft..... Not to mention the fact that if I wore my heels at work I'd be forever spiking lawns..... Mind you, there's potential for the invention of a multi heeled lawn aerating shoe... maybe.... maybe not....

Well, there are plenty of ways to dress steampunk in those rougher fabrics! You don't have to wear a skirt. 

[Mimsy Beaucoup]

I am sure I said for some it is not pratical and sensible, not all.

Hmmm how practical and sensible would it be for me to turn up to my year 8 class to teach them English whilst wearing a corset and steamy accessories? Not practical, nor sensible if I value my career and status with the kids! You are a tattoo artist, of course you can express yourself a little more, you are very lucky to be in an arty career. I can indeed assure you that the secondary school system is for the most part very conservative in its views. If I was to flaunt this, it would indeed harm my career. It is of course not the correct way for society to be but it is the way that it is.

I think you misjudge my meaning- by practical and sensible- I mean the more extremes, I offer apologies if that did not come across previously, my point being- would you (not any one in particualr I hasten to add) really wear a top hat and goggles, steamy inspired arm piece and full victoriana to Tescos? Maybe you would, I don't know

I think you will also find there are a lot of  'non lifestylers' on here too, those who need to be a little less 'out there' in their everyday lives, due to societies expectations, should we conform to them? Maybe not, but why fight all your life and make things worse for yourself, if indeed such actions would harm you in some way? There is no shame in realising that sometimes you cannot be exactly who you want to be clothing wise. Also many, I am sure will not always want to dress to a genre/ sub culture all the time, for varied reasons, one of them being that it may not be the sensible option or a practical one. And indeed, like me, there will be many who enjoy other subcultures too.

I can also assure you, that I am very aware of the diversity of subculture and the many varied geners there are. In my profession you cannot be ignorant to the world. In the ethos of 'every child matters' and everyone is to be treated as an equal, it stands to reason that this includes all in society as far as I am concerned, hence I do not like the lables of defining 'Us' against the rest of society.

You may pass me on the street, looking every bit the norm in my general 'trendy' clothing or work wear...how would you know that I neither judge you nor think you 'strange' and indeed that under my 'norm' clothing there are tattoos and a somewhat steam inspired heart and yet to you I may be the 'Them'.

[Auntie Ludmilla]

To be honest, I just wear charity shop tat to work, purely because it gets trashed so quickly! Better it, than my precious steampunk skin though, which I like to keep under a protective layer of clothing unless in an hospitable environment

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

Although I understand and deeply respect and half-agree with Thistlewaite in that we might be 'doomed to apocalypse', I am unwilling to completely relinquish the hope that we might be able to 'fix it'.  

Aye, lad...I hope you're right, and me wrong. Good on ya!
When I was in my twenties and thirties, I still thought we could fix it. In my forties, I began to have my doubts about that. Now, halfway through my fifties, I've come to believe that collapse is inevitable, not so much a matter of if, but only when...history has shown us that all societies eventually collapse. In my opinion, this one is due...maybe overdue. If you're counting on people's "better nature" to kick in, and that they're going to collectively see the light and act right...well, good luck with that, but I ain't holding my breath. My woodstove will heat the house, and the windmill and the steam engine will keep the generators turning regardless of what happens to the grid...19th century technology is just so much more reliable than electronic, high-tech, computer assisted gadgetry. Once the GPS satellites have stitched a flaming trail across the sky, a compass and a map will still get you across Virginia from DC...we'll be the ones in a fort near the New River. Wave your top hat while you're still a ways out, so you don't get shot, eh?

~Thistlewaite

[Flynn MacCallister]

O.o I like waffles. I don't know who else does...

[Vagabond GentleMan]

One of the trademarks of 'them' has always been saying you can't actually get along and do well without conforming which is utter rubbish. Yes it does take some extra work to find employment or start your own business so you have the freedom to be yourself, but there is nothing un-sensible about it.

Hear hear.

Hmmm how practical and sensible would it be for me to turn up to my year 8 class to teach them English whilst wearing a corset and steamy accessories? Not practical, nor sensible if I value my career and status with the kids! You are a tattoo artist, of course you can express yourself a little more, you are very lucky to be in an arty career. I can indeed assure you that the secondary school system is for the most part very conservative in its views. If I was to flaunt this, it would indeed harm my career. It is of course not the correct way for society to be but it is the way that it is.

I think you misjudge my meaning- by practical and sensible- I mean the more extremes, I offer apologies if that did not come across previously, my point being- would you (not any one in particualr I hasten to add) really wear a top hat and goggles, steamy inspired arm piece and full victoriana to Tescos? Maybe you would, I don't know

I think you will also find there are a lot of  'non lifestylers' on here too, those who need to be a little less 'out there' in their everyday lives, due to societies expectations, should we conform to them? Maybe not, but why fight all your life and make things worse for yourself, if indeed such actions would harm you in some way? There is no shame in realising that sometimes you cannot be exactly who you want to be clothing wise.

First, let me make sure all know that I intend not to hurt feelings.  I am stating my views, which are strong, and I don't expect all to agree with them.  You are all my comrades, and I have no beef with any of you as individuals.  With that said...

If it's not the way society should be, but rather the way it is, it is such because we let it be such.  It won't change until we push the established boundaries.  Complacency imprisons us.  I've seen the acceptance grow for weirdos in general here in the US in and out of the workplace over the past few decades, because weird folks have been fighting for it. 

And like I said, I've been a lifetime outsider, I've made in indelible, and I'm a tattoo artist and thus have a good deal of liberty in terms of appearance.  So, yeah, I don't know what a Tescos is, but I don't feel the need to dress down for any establishment.  Only when I feel like it.
Of course, it doesn't matter what I wear, people are going to give me the stinkeye or just stare anyway.

But yeah, my position is unique.  It is unique because I am a rugged individualist and I couldn't live a conformist life and still WANT to live at all, and thus directed the course of my life such that I could live and still be Me entirely, but yes, the position it landed me in is unique.

I do understand that we all have to eat, and some of us have jobs with dress codes and such.  In your position, Miss Mimsy, I have to admit you might be more beneficial to 'us' than I am in general, as a 'beneficial termite', teaching tolerance, acceptance, and alternative social ethos to the young, encouraging them to be individuals rather than accepting the lot that the system expects of them.

For instance, my last girlfriend worked IT in a Catholic all-boys High school.  She was tattooed and pierced and so forth, but generally kept them coverable...but was always pushing the envelope, always pushing the 'grey area' of the dress code a little further.  She gets stranger and stranger, while continually proving that she can still perform her job with proficiency, and thereby shows ALL of her EXTREMELY conservative co-workers that 'we' aren't criminals and moral degenerates because we choose a different path.  And her coworkers, having to admit this, carry that with them when they leave the office, such that they become more tolerant and less-judgmental themselves.

I can't believe any of us NEED to be 'less out there' for any reason.  Need is a strong word.  We CHOOSE to be.

I HAVE fought my whole life, not making things worse for myself, but fighting to make things BETTER for myself, and ALL of 'us'.  Yes, sometimes my actions harm me.  Sometimes I have to stand up to bullies, sometimes I have to fight them.  I've sacrificed many job opportunities, many career options, and all sorts of things.  Because I very deeply and very profoundly believe in being yourself, being proud of yourself, and standing up for yourself, and being courageous enough to do so in front of the whole world and everyone in it, regardless of consequence.

Now, there are other ways to do this, of course.  We have five senses, right?  We can send our message through at least words, if not smell and touch and so forth.  But on a daily level the way we best communicate our personal message to the world is through our appearance.  We are visual beings, we humans.  I feel my message is important, and to me personally, it WOULD be shameful to hide it.  Before I finally, through long, long toil and tribulation, EARNED my uniquely liberated position, I WAS shamed to have to conform, to any degree, when I, too, was only capable of pushing those 'grey area' dress-code boundaries.

Although again, I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, and respect the right to have other opinions.

Although I understand and deeply respect and half-agree with Thistlewaite in that we might be 'doomed to apocalypse', I am unwilling to completely relinquish the hope that we might be able to 'fix it'. 

Aye, lad...I hope you're right, and me wrong. Good on ya!

~Thistlewaite

Well, I hope I'm right too (but deep down I know you're right, really.)
I'm still gonna give it the old college try, though!
I'm thirty come Friday, so maybe that explains it.

And I'll fly a white flag of truce emblazoned with a thistle and a barbell on my way to your fort, Sarge!

[Flynn MacCallister]

(Vagabond, I think you may have removed some [ /quote ]'s without removing the [ quote="" ]'s to which they correspond...)

[Vagabond GentleMan]

I did, yes thanks.  Um, I'll try to go back and fix it?


Ug.  I fail.  All of the and 'bracketquotebracket's' and bracket/quotebracket's' seem to be in place, but it's still all janky.

Oh, well, I trust you all to understand and forgive.  My bad!

[H. MacHinery]

Having been a geek forever, a sci-fi fan since 9, D&Der since 9th grade, SCA since college, etc, etc,etc, I think that a lot of us get a chip on our shoulder over past slights, and get disdainful of the "mundanes"

We are social animals, and tribal ones.  We need others to remain sane, even if we also feel the need to divide the world into Us and Them.
But the big take-away is that if we're a subculture, we need to be sufficiently welcoming to incipient joiners so as to not scare them away.

[Flynn MacCallister]

Vagabond GentleMan:

Spoiler: I think that's fixed now... (click to show/hide)

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[quote author=lilibat link=topic=20019.msg452292#msg452292 date=1257891628]


One of the trademarks of 'them' has always been saying you can't actually get along and do well without conforming which is utter rubbish. Yes it does take some extra work to find employment or start your own business so you have the freedom to be yourself, but there is nothing un-sensible about it.
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Hear hear.

[quote author=Mimsy Beaucoup link=topic=20019.msg452312#msg452312 date=1257892734]

Hmmm how practical and sensible would it be for me to turn up to my year 8 class to teach them English whilst wearing a corset and steamy accessories? Not practical, nor sensible if I value my career and status with the kids! You are a tattoo artist, of course you can express yourself a little more, you are very lucky to be in an arty career. I can indeed assure you that the secondary school system is for the most part very conservative in its views. If I was to flaunt this, it would indeed harm my career. It is of course not the correct way for society to be but it is the way that it is.

I think you misjudge my meaning- by practical and sensible- I mean the more extremes, I offer apologies if that did not come across previously, my point being- would you (not any one in particualr I hasten to add) really wear a top hat and goggles, steamy inspired arm piece and full victoriana to Tescos? Maybe you would, I don't know :)

I think you will also find there are a lot of  'non lifestylers' on here too, those who need to be a little less 'out there' in their everyday lives, due to societies expectations, should we conform to them? Maybe not, but why fight all your life and make things worse for yourself, if indeed such actions would harm you in some way? There is no shame in realising that sometimes you cannot be exactly who you want to be clothing wise.

[/quote]
First, let me make sure all know that I intend not to hurt feelings.  I am stating my views, which are strong, and I don't expect all to agree with them.  You are all my comrades, and I have no beef with any of you as individuals.  With that said...

If it's not the way society should be, but rather the way it is, it is such because we let it be such.  It won't change until we push the established boundaries.  Complacency imprisons us.  I've seen the acceptance grow for weirdos in general here in the US in and out of the workplace over the past few decades, because weird folks have been fighting for it. 

And like I said, I've been a lifetime outsider, I've made in indelible, and I'm a tattoo artist and thus have a good deal of liberty in terms of appearance.  So, yeah, I don't know what a Tescos is, but I don't feel the need to dress down for any establishment.  Only when I feel like it.
Of course, it doesn't matter what I wear, people are going to give me the stinkeye or just stare anyway.

But yeah, my position is unique.  It is unique because I am a rugged individualist and I couldn't live a conformist life and still WANT to live at all, and thus directed the course of my life such that I could live and still be Me entirely, but yes, the position it landed me in is unique.

I do understand that we all have to eat, and some of us have jobs with dress codes and such.  In your position, Miss Mimsy, I have to admit you might be more beneficial to 'us' than I am in general, as a 'beneficial termite', teaching tolerance, acceptance, and alternative social ethos to the young, encouraging them to be individuals rather than accepting the lot that the system expects of them.

For instance, my last girlfriend worked IT in a Catholic all-boys High school.  She was tattooed and pierced and so forth, but generally kept them coverable...but was always pushing the envelope, always pushing the 'grey area' of the dress code a little further.  She gets stranger and stranger, while continually proving that she can still perform her job with proficiency, and thereby shows ALL of her EXTREMELY conservative co-workers that 'we' aren't criminals and moral degenerates because we choose a different path.  And her coworkers, having to admit this, carry that with them when they leave the office, such that they become more tolerant and less-judgmental themselves.

I can't believe any of us NEED to be 'less out there' for any reason.  Need is a strong word.  We CHOOSE to be.

I HAVE fought my whole life, not making things worse for myself, but fighting to make things BETTER for myself, and ALL of 'us'.  Yes, sometimes my actions harm me.  Sometimes I have to stand up to bullies, sometimes I have to fight them.  I've sacrificed many job opportunities, many career options, and all sorts of things.  Because I very deeply and very profoundly believe in being yourself, being proud of yourself, and standing up for yourself, and being courageous enough to do so in front of the whole world and everyone in it, regardless of consequence.

Now, there are other ways to do this, of course.  We have five senses, right?  We can send our message through at least words, if not smell and touch and so forth.  But on a daily level the way we best communicate our personal message to the world is through our appearance.  We are visual beings, we humans.  I feel my message is important, and to me personally, it WOULD be shameful to hide it.  Before I finally, through long, long toil and tribulation, EARNED my uniquely liberated position, I WAS shamed to have to conform, to any degree, when I, too, was only capable of pushing those 'grey area' dress-code boundaries.

Although again, I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, and respect the right to have other opinions.

[quote author=Sgt.Major Thistlewaite link=topic=20019.msg452318#msg452318 date=1257893339]
[quote author=Vagabond GentleMan link=topic=20019.msg452281#msg452281 date=1257890800]
Although I understand and deeply respect and half-agree with Thistlewaite in that we might be 'doomed to apocalypse', I am unwilling to completely relinquish the hope that we might be able to 'fix it'. 
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Aye, lad...I hope you're right, and me wrong. Good on ya!

~Thistlewaite
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Well, I hope I'm right too (but deep down I know you're right, really.) :(
I'm still gonna give it the old college try, though!
I'm thirty come Friday, so maybe that explains it.

And I'll fly a white flag of truce emblazoned with a thistle and a barbell on my way to your fort, Sarge!

You just seem to have left in an extra open-quote from yourself after your open-quote for Lilibat.

[Vagabond GentleMan]

Ah, thanks again!

[Mad Miss Holmes]

I'm more chauvinist than xenophobe. I don't hate the sheeple; I just acknowledge that I am better than they are.  (And besides that, they're tasty with mint sauce.)

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

....and some fava beans and a nice Chianti...