The Ignorance of Commoners Reaches New Heights

[Flynn MacCallister]

One thing people completely missed in the uproar about that: I've worked one of those tills, and you would not believe how much that speeds the checkout up. I have a degree in physics, with just a few credit points shy of a minor in mathematics, so I have no troubles with breaking down change into constituents, but particularly when you have a queue of impatient people, squalling children, and orders being shouted back at you by the kitchen behind you, "two outta that drawer, three outta that one, six outta that one" just processes much faster that "two dollars and sixty-three cents". Sounds ridiculous, I know, but trust me, it makes a difference.

Sure, maybe it's partly to compensate for kids without the mental capabilities to do it themselves, but even with them, having something that goes straight from eyes to hands without needing to go via the brain makes things run much smoother.

And yet, miss MacCallister, could it not be said that the point itself still stands...? Alas -- would that the example I provided was the only skill that may be slouching, as they say, towards oblivion!

You mean the point that education systems throughout the developed world are deep in the cacky? Oh, yes. I do think that still stands.

My objection was to the specific example: it gets peddled a lot as "look! These kids are so stupid they can't even count!" where the motivation behind it is quite different. It is just a little like trying to criticise businesses for using Excel spreadsheets (and their handy and very fast arithmetic functions!) rather than doing everything by hand. It's quite possible that many of the users could not do it accurately by hand any more, but that's not the reason they use the software.

[rentreality]

You mean the point that education systems throughout the developed world are deep in the cacky? Oh, yes. I do think that still stands.

Would that it didn't. On the bright side, At least the situation is well known, and thus open to the possibility of change. As a form of educator myself, however, the sting of the system's failure is all the more poignant.

My objection was to the specific example: it gets peddled a lot as "look! These kids are so stupid they can't even count!" where the motivation behind it is quite different. It is just a little like trying to criticise businesses for using Excel spreadsheets (and their handy and very fast arithmetic functions!) rather than doing everything by hand. It's quite possible that many of the users could not do it accurately by hand any more, but that's not the reason they use the software.

I certainly appreciate your insight on the matter. While it may be true that some of the individuals may not have any master of basic arithmetic functions, you're entirely correct: it's a side of the story that is often almost criminally under-represented, and I stand guilty of continuing the stereotype.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

It was harder when I was a kid. No internet. Library. If you wanted to know something about something you went to the library. There was no such thing as a "nerd." "Egghead" was far more common. Or "Hey, Poindexter!"
You'd have to be as old as I am to even vaguely "get" that.

 Since I was a child, I have lived with the sure and certain knowledge that in some fundamental way I differed from those around me..I seemed to care more, I seemed to try harder, I had a sense of right and wrong that seemed to be missing in my fellow-travelers.(Not all, mind you, but most...and those of spirit kindred to mine were recognized.) When, in high school, the physical abuse became not merely annoying, but dangerous, I used my intellect to obtain a knowledge of martial arts, and the bullying ceased. I educated myself because I wanted to..to me, that was what was important. Not being popular, or even accepted. I knew knowledge would be my friend and companion long after those gibbering, garmented, tailless monkeys I found myself amongst were not so much as a faded memory...and I was, and continue to be, correct.

When I started doing math, there were no calculators..there were slide rules, and tables, and pencil and paper. I can plot every angle of several complex curves through intersections, on paper, with proofs and closures.
I can also tear down, repair and reassemble an automobile, a truck, or an aircraft.
I can do a lot of other things, too. Sew. Draw and paint. Play six or seven musical instruments...although only guitar and harmonica simultaneously.  Dozens more things, things too numerous and esoteric to list.

 Why can I do these things? Because I was curious, I was interested, and I set myself the task of learning how, and carried through with the intention.

Do I feel superior to those who "can't be bothered," who are too lazy, self-centered, and pleasure-seeking to ever rise above the grossly material plane, either mentally or spiritually?

HELL YES!

Now, as to being "elitist," it's nothing like that...it's not an attitude, it's a certitude.
There is a better, and a lesser, degree of being.
And it involves choice.

~T

[Violet Rose]

But are you kind to lickle kitties?

[Arceye]

To be honest teh term 'ignorance of commoners' represents for me the worst aspects of victorian manners. It smack of smug and self-satisfiedd privildege  I must say that the affectation of aristocratic mannerisms is something which I've never really understood.

        Narsil I agree with you to a point, one could end up doing impersonations of Tony Hancock. I live in a council flat and was a lorry driver until I got ill. But it doesn't stop me thinking that my fellow human beens (the 'Commoners') can be astonishingly ignorant. Steampunk promises a revival of manners and ways of expression which might be seen as 'aristocratic' or they might simply be seen as politeness.

[Flynn MacCallister]

Sergeant Major, forgive me my cynicism, but I find something uncomfortable and all too familiar about the cry "We're not elitist, we're just better." Similarly, the concept of "a better, and a lesser, degree of being."

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

Flynn, cynicism is healthy! I speak only for myself...there is no "we".......and all I am citing is an honest appraisal of how I feel about it...and yes, I feel better. Do I have any "right" to such an assumption?
*shrug* Maybe not! Nevertheless, it's how I feel...and circumstance seems to bear me out, as when challenged I always seem to come out on top, and generally because I am superior mentally and physically to those who would seek to try me.
Will any be better or worse if an asteroid of significant size hits the planet? Probably not. But until and unless something of that magnitude occurs, I, who have striven diligently all my life to better myself both physically and mentally, am going to continue to regard myself as "better" than fat, lazy slobbos whose greatest mental exertion consists of deciding which stupid sit-com to watch on the idiot box tonight.

And yes, Ms. Rose, I am exceedingly kind to kittens! 

~T

[Lucius Voltaic]

Listen up, all:

This discussion has been going on for days, has progressed far, and, I think, has enlightened all of us. I believe, however, that, as of now, this discussion has now reached the point where we can no longer hope to find common ground. I, at least, as I hope all the other debaters do, can see and respect the validity in both sides. My position is unchanged, but I have many more things to think about than at the beginning of the debate.

Flynn, I salute you for your tenacity. While I have engaged in many philosophical debates in this and other online forums, you are one of the few debaters I have gone up against who has not sickened me with stifling closed-mindedness or a stupid position.

Sgt.Major, I am proud to know you, and hope in time to further our acquaintance. I invite you and those of like mind to join me at the new home of the Gnostocratic Society, as follows:

http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20285.new.html#new

[Sir A Poiselamppe]

One thing people completely missed in the uproar about that: I've worked one of those tills, and you would not believe how much that speeds the checkout up. I have a degree in physics, with just a few credit points shy of a minor in mathematics, so I have no troubles with breaking down change into constituents, but particularly when you have a queue of impatient people, squalling children, and orders being shouted back at you by the kitchen behind you, "two outta that drawer, three outta that one, six outta that one" just processes much faster that "two dollars and sixty-three cents". Sounds ridiculous, I know, but trust me, it makes a difference.

Sure, maybe it's partly to compensate for kids without the mental capabilities to do it themselves, but even with them, having something that goes straight from eyes to hands without needing to go via the brain makes things run much smoother.

And yet, miss MacCallister, could it not be said that the point itself still stands...? Alas -- would that the example I provided was the only skill that may be slouching, as they say, towards oblivion!

You mean the point that education systems throughout the developed world are deep in the cacky? Oh, yes. I do think that still stands.

My objection was to the specific example: it gets peddled a lot as "look! These kids are so stupid they can't even count!" where the motivation behind it is quite different. It is just a little like trying to criticise businesses for using Excel spreadsheets (and their handy and very fast arithmetic functions!) rather than doing everything by hand. It's quite possible that many of the users could not do it accurately by hand any more, but that's not the reason they use the software.

I would agree that it is faster and more efficient to use images instead of engaging intellect to give change, especially the in cases where the notes look similar...  however the issue to me would seem to be to akin to that of people who, due to always wearing a digital watch, have difficulty in reading a clockface due to unfamiliarity with the system, rather than a  lack of knowledge.

Similarly it has recently been shown that talking to the elderly as if they are idiots merely reinforces the conditioning that they are in fact incapable of thinking for themselves, even when this is not the case.

Using such systems has a very real potential to limit a persons ability to develop further by discouraging independent thought at work, an attitude which may spill over into their personal life.

I have used Excel extensively throughout my life, and although I have issues in general with Msoft I think it is one of the most useful things around but it need more that a little thought to lay out a spreadsheet to gain the desired result, so I would not really place it in the same category as a photographic system for retail change giving.

I do tend to think that the ability to enquire is critical, although I am with Sherlock Holmes on this inasmuch as if the subject seems irrelevant to me I will tend to ignore it completely (football, politics to name a few)

[/endramble]

[Churchwarden]

I'll be willing to wager your income is greater than the "American football loving, pick up truck driving, tobacco spitting redneck".  : )

SPBrewer

Actually, I play music for a living in Ireland, I live with three other people in a house out in the middle of bovine carpeted countryside and I am lucky if I can afford new strings for my instrument once every few months, so no...I do not have the greater income.

Snotty is snotty, and conceit is what it is as well. If people here continue to let themselves fall into this pitfall, it is their choice. I shines a bad light on this site and casts a dark shadow over the steam community in general to anyone on the outside. I think by doing so, you are becoming the thing you hate and only serving to worsen the problem of what has turned out to be a very unforgiving world. Mistakes are made for a purpose, and this is the most important way people learn, however, if we are not willing to let people move forward from them, this cycle will not complete. People do not like feeling looked down upon any more than we do...such as being called weird for the way you dress of a geek for being book smart. I see so many faults here aimed at children as well, high school kids and the like, and really...that is just sad. I wish you luck in future, I won't be returning to this thread.

[Herr Döktor]

Clearly, I am a better person than most of the posters on this thread, as I don't feel I am superior in any way to anyone else.

[Rockula]

Clearly, I am a better person than most of the posters on this thread, as I don't feel I am superior in any way to anyone else.

 

[Ocelot]

Clearly, I am a better person than most of the posters on this thread, as I don't feel I am superior in any way to anyone else.

Your having posted that only proves that, in fact, you are.

[Flynn MacCallister]

Clearly, I am a better person than most of the posters on this thread, as I don't feel I am superior in any way to anyone else.

... brain. Splosion. O.o

[Flynn MacCallister]

One thing people completely missed in the uproar about that: I've worked one of those tills, and you would not believe how much that speeds the checkout up. I have a degree in physics, with just a few credit points shy of a minor in mathematics, so I have no troubles with breaking down change into constituents, but particularly when you have a queue of impatient people, squalling children, and orders being shouted back at you by the kitchen behind you, "two outta that drawer, three outta that one, six outta that one" just processes much faster that "two dollars and sixty-three cents". Sounds ridiculous, I know, but trust me, it makes a difference.

Sure, maybe it's partly to compensate for kids without the mental capabilities to do it themselves, but even with them, having something that goes straight from eyes to hands without needing to go via the brain makes things run much smoother.

And yet, miss MacCallister, could it not be said that the point itself still stands...? Alas -- would that the example I provided was the only skill that may be slouching, as they say, towards oblivion!

You mean the point that education systems throughout the developed world are deep in the cacky? Oh, yes. I do think that still stands.

My objection was to the specific example: it gets peddled a lot as "look! These kids are so stupid they can't even count!" where the motivation behind it is quite different. It is just a little like trying to criticise businesses for using Excel spreadsheets (and their handy and very fast arithmetic functions!) rather than doing everything by hand. It's quite possible that many of the users could not do it accurately by hand any more, but that's not the reason they use the software.

I would agree that it is faster and more efficient to use images instead of engaging intellect to give change, especially the in cases where the notes look similar...  however the issue to me would seem to be to akin to that of people who, due to always wearing a digital watch, have difficulty in reading a clockface due to unfamiliarity with the system, rather than a  lack of knowledge.

Similarly it has recently been shown that talking to the elderly as if they are idiots merely reinforces the conditioning that they are in fact incapable of thinking for themselves, even when this is not the case.

Using such systems has a very real potential to limit a persons ability to develop further by discouraging independent thought at work, an attitude which may spill over into their personal life.

I have used Excel extensively throughout my life, and although I have issues in general with Msoft I think it is one of the most useful things around but it need more that a little thought to lay out a spreadsheet to gain the desired result, so I would not really place it in the same category as a photographic system for retail change giving.

I do tend to think that the ability to enquire is critical, although I am with Sherlock Holmes on this inasmuch as if the subject seems irrelevant to me I will tend to ignore it completely (football, politics to name a few)

[/endramble]

In the world of Fast Food, what effect it has on the person using it is not considered important. The point still stands that this system is for speeding up the checkout, not for ccompensating for the undereducation of the employees. That's the only point I was making in that post.

I feel that the comparison with Excel is entirely valid, it's just that this is on a smaller scale. Both are aids to increase speed (and perhaps accuracy) of workers.

[Flynn MacCallister]

Listen up, all:

This discussion has been going on for days, has progressed far, and, I think, has enlightened all of us. I believe, however, that, as of now, this discussion has now reached the point where we can no longer hope to find common ground. I, at least, as I hope all the other debaters do, can see and respect the validity in both sides. My position is unchanged, but I have many more things to think about than at the beginning of the debate.

Flynn, I salute you for your tenacity. While I have engaged in many philosophical debates in this and other online forums, you are one of the few debaters I have gone up against who has not sickened me with stifling closed-mindedness or a stupid position.

Sgt.Major, I am proud to know you, and hope in time to further our acquaintance. I invite you and those of like mind to join me at the new home of the Gnostocratic Society, as follows:

http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20285.new.html#new

Thankyou. Unlike many people on the internet, I have given that position a great deal of thought. And whatever my feelings are about your own position ( ;p ), I agree that it is a reasonable one, and I must say you expressed it politely, clearly, consistently and extremely well. It's very refreshing to be able to have a serious discussion on the internet without having to wind it down to six-year-old level for a change! *Laughs*

[Lucius Voltaic]

Thankyou. Unlike many people on the internet, I have given that position a great deal of thought. And whatever my feelings are about your own position ( ;p ), I agree that it is a reasonable one, and I must say you expressed it politely, clearly, consistently and extremely well. It's very refreshing to be able to have a serious discussion on the internet without having to wind it down to six-year-old level for a change! *Laughs*

Thank you. The stupidity I've seen on the internet...wow. Here's an "argument" put forward by one DrowVampyre on the (usually polite and intelligent) board Giant In The Playground: "That person was cruel to an animal--cruelty is bad, so he should be tortured to death!"

*facepalm*

Also: Why, Herr Doktor, why must you mess with our minds thus?

[Flynn MacCallister]

Thank you. The stupidity I've seen on the internet...wow. Here's an "argument" put forward by one DrowVampyre on the (usually polite and intelligent) board Giant In The Playground: "That person was cruel to an animal--cruelty is bad, so he should be tortured to death!"

*facepalm*

Also: Why, Herr Doktor, why must you mess with our minds thus?

Hmmm, yeah, those ones. I like to tell myself that they are joking, and saying it ironically. I mean you never know on the internet... O.o

It is interesting, though, to note that there are people who put animal rights over human rights, on the basis that animals are dumb and can't do much about it. I knew one or two of them in high school. They had not had very much interaction with non-human animals.

[Utini420]

Damn, y'all still arguing about this?

Some folks are just dumb.  I'd probably feel less "better" than them if they put in some more effort on their end.  At least make me work for it.

[RoseOak]

Any chance of giving this a rest

[Flynn MacCallister]

Any chance of giving this a rest

Er, it wound down days ago.

[RoseOak]

Any chance of giving this a rest

Er, it wound down days ago.

I'm just making sure.

[Arvis]

Any chance of giving this a rest

Er, it wound down days ago.

I'm just making sure.

 Your sure about that....?

 

[Atterton]

Yes, I can feel it rumbling.

[Flynn MacCallister]

And here we see Universal Law number Ninety-Three beginning to manifest: the surest way to fire a discussion, debate or argument in its latter stages back up again is to ask for it to stop. Closely related to Universal Law number Thirty-Two: asking if they are done ensures that they are not.