The British Steampunk Settlement thread - "Would You" Divergence

[NazT]

Hmm there are some fantastic ideas going on here and I feel I must add my own thoughts on this subject (even if it is just fantasizing in my case).

1. Part of the steampunk ethic is to recycle and re-purpose and I think this suits this activity greatly.  There are modern ideas that we can still use and we can still have iPods and dishwashers etc it just means that we replace the iPod batteries ourselves or build our own dishwashers.  We dont have to hate modern tech but we dont have to be wasteful with it either.
2. We also dont necessarily need slaves or workers and lets face it the Victorians were brilliant at automating things so why not us.  There is no reason why we cannot automate the "dark satanic mills" (lets face it I really wouldnt want my child working near the weaving machines).  The way I see it is if something becomes a problem we automate it, adapt and modify it.
3. Self sustaining is the area that most interests me however. 
a) Power: Any flowing water can be used to produce electricity, steam engines can be used in more efficient ways to produce power and heating for water systems etc, and you dont need just coal or wood to fire the boilers there are other materials that might just be used perhaps also using any waste products in a more usefull lest wastefull way (a poor example is to use the gases from sewage to partly power the boilers and the spent sewage could then be used as fertilizer).
b) Food:  Produce can be better grown if managed properly but also utilising modern and old methods.  Turning the top floors of an old factory into a place for growing food could be just as useful as having large tracts of land for the same thing.  Growing plants in tiers would provide more food for space plus using sympathetic growing methods could save on pest control, watering and fertiliser.
c) Water:  Water can be gathered from streams, rain tanks, etc and cleaned. Even sea water could be used. Water can be "distilled" from the vapour from boilers and passed through ash filters.  Water can also be reused from washing and other waste.

I'm sorry if this doesnt make much sense as I tend to type too slowly for my brain.  I see a steampunk community working, as it is one already inspired by recycling, re-purposing, design, creativity, and problem solving.  I can see a steampunk settlement making just as much use of a farm and its land as a large multistory warehouse/factory, as a scrap yard and buildings, as a large cargo ship, as pretty much anything if it comes to that.

I'll shut up now until my brain has finally exploded.

[19th Century Space Pilot]

The main problem I see with that is it lacks the ability to start small and grow. If we can find a cluster of buildings, we can slowly buy them all up. Ditto for land.

[MechanicalMouse]

Gentlemen and Ladies,
  I work for a big homebuilder, in their IT dept. A recent meeting highlighted an issue that any proposed settlement may have.
 
  By 2016 all new homes must be carbon neutral. That is not just the build, but it's continued existence too.
 
  Let that sink in for a moment. Every home from that point on must be built with some kind of local renewable power production (to offset brought energy and its carbon footprint), have insulation to the nth degree, triple glazing and be built with carbon neutral materials.
 
  Mass built Carbon neutral buildings are not beautiful. They are anorexic greenhouses with silly roofing.
 
  Even with reclaimed materials a Victorian designed building with high celling, wooden frames and open fireplaces are not carbon friendly. A straw bale and Sod design are far better, but needs a larger physical foot print and has limits in size.
 
  I have seen the homes of future and they are covered in Algae.

[19th Century Space Pilot]

So, if we build, we must do so before the year of 16'...

Any thoughts on jerrymandering? Move into a small village or area, and create the steampunk asthetic.

[19th Century Space Pilot]

Re. creating a town...
http://www.nalc.gov.uk/Toolkits/Create_a_Council/Create_a_council.aspx

We need at least 250 people, then.

Edit: actually, when I checked, it turns out that we need 50% to agree if the population is under 500... so a township of 100 needs 50 people.

[lady joanna]

The two themes I can see emerging are these:

- A Disney-esque 'Steampunk World' where we pretend we're living in a Victorian fantasy land that would double as a tourist attraction and which would cost an absolute fortune to build and maintain.

- A private community where we can be self sufficient to a degree and follow Victorian values and aesthetics (similar to what Tinkertime said about Ahmish communities).

This is the more feasible of the two. I think it's very unlikely that many of us could be completely independent of towns and modern living, but there are many of us who wish we could be more like Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstal. TV shows like 'It's Not Easy Being Green' show you can use a mix of modern and old technology to create a comfortable lifestyle, probably more easily achieved through community teamwork. 'Grand Designs' shows us it's not impossible to create affordable, energy efficient housing. Maybe not grand Victorian villas, but I recently saw an episode where a couple imported an American whetherboard house designed around their specification with a beautiful interior. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but I could see the Steampunk possibilities....

I'm sure it's possible to create some form of co-operative whereby a 'code of cunduct' can be created. Consider those elegant little villages belonging to country estates or if anyone has ever investigated becoming a National Trust tenant. They all have strict procedures for applicants and everyone adheres to the aesthetics of the community around them.

As much as we would all love to move to Blists Hill or the Black Country Museum in  a heartbeat, I don't think many of us would want to live in a museum for very long. Those of us who can, I'm sure, would be willing to maintain a craftshop, but this is as far as I'd be prepared tobring the public into the Steampunk world. I've spent enough years as a re-enactor to get looks of disbelief when we tell them we sleep under canvas and cook and eat over an open fire.

Anyway, that's my rant over. Please do with as you will

[OswaldBastable]

Gentlemen and Ladies,
  I work for a big homebuilder, in their IT dept. A recent meeting highlighted an issue that any proposed settlement may have.
 
  By 2016 all new homes must be carbon neutral. That is not just the build, but it's continued existence too.
 
  Let that sink in for a moment. Every home from that point on must be built with some kind of local renewable power production (to offset brought energy and its carbon footprint), have insulation to the nth degree, triple glazing and be built with carbon neutral materials.
 
  Mass built Carbon neutral buildings are not beautiful. They are anorexic greenhouses with silly roofing.
 
  Even with reclaimed materials a Victorian designed building with high celling, wooden frames and open fireplaces are not carbon friendly. A straw bale and Sod design are far better, but needs a larger physical foot print and has limits in size.
 
  I have seen the homes of future and they are covered in Algae.

I have to be honest the phrase that springs to mind is "I'll believe that when I see it"

[MechanicalMouse]

snip

I have to be honest the phrase that springs to mind is "I'll believe that when I see it"

We've got no choice. Either they're carbon neutral or they don't get building regulation certification. No certification you can't sell them.

Apparently it will add £30'000 to the cost of a new home, which I doubt. A roof full of solar panels will cost more than that, before you add the cost of other "green" technologies.

[markf]

While I do not know how far the reach of carbon neutrality will take us, perhaps there are workarounds, such as a community of repurposed railcars or Victorian-esque caravans.  It would certianly get your steamtown up and running more quickly while you work on the details for common areas. markf
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19864.0.html
http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/testimonials/

[lady joanna]

Oh, now I like the idea of railway carriages.... My parents nearly booked a holiday in a refurbished railway carriage (and not the awful 1960s type ones you see, I hasten to add). They are so Steampunk, but don't realise it. 

Now if I could live in a carriage like the one in Wild Wild West, or if anyone has seen the Victorian Royal carriages at the National Railway Museum, I would be there. I wonder how easy it is to get hold of such carriages? You see so many just lying in direpair on heritage railways 

[TimeTinker]

Would the UK participants of this thread who are attending the Asylum like it if I were to arrange a discussion panel on this topic for one of the day programmes?   I would be delighted to facilitate this and face to face discussion is great for sharing ideas and accelerating determination.  Perhaps one or two of the prime movers would like to volunteer to sit on the panel?   I would also be happy to make available some space in the Great Steampunk Exhibition if anyone would like to come up with some ideas in a 2D or 3D form.

[MechanicalMouse]

You can count on me.

[TimeTinker]

Thank you Sir.  I do not mean to pressure of course, just trying to be helpful.  Remember the function of the VSS is to promote and facilitate all things steampunk for the good of the Steampunk community. Please let me know how we can best faiclitate this.

[MechanicalMouse]

My dear Sir, I very much like the idea of an open debate at the Asylum and a small display would be a fine addition.

At the very least, the display would be a show case of the various ideas for a Steampunk Community.

[MechanicalMouse]

I'm investigating the cost of using rail coaches. I fear however they may be expensive. Though I'm sure faux coaches would not be beyond building.

[lady joanna]

yes, i took the liberty of doing a quick google for coaches, but with little success, although i'm sure if one approached the right people you would have more luck.

[MechanicalMouse]

I'm awaiting a reply from a company I found on the internet. Next time I'm at my parents I'll ask my Dad to put out the feelers for me too.

Hopefully I'll have some figures soon.

[MechanicalMouse]

Here's a little report on what I have found.

I sent a query to Bob at http://www.carservicesukltd.com/.

The 4TC coaches on http://www.carservicesukltd.com/specialcoaches.htm would go for £7'500 per coach.

From what I remember It would cost about £1000 for transportation.

At 66 foot long and 9 foot wide each coach it twice the size of a static caravan, which cost a similar price.

Depending on what you do I'd guestimate £5000 to refurbish and re-purpose.

Bringing this into the concept of starting a community maybe a "caravan camp" maybe a good start. I might put some kind of business plan together.

[lady joanna]

Well, that all looks very promising....

The biggest headache, as has been mentioned before, will be planning permission. Also I did consider, that like static caravans, they would not be able to be used as 'permanent residences'. I think they are only allowed to be inhabited 10 or 11 months per year. I'm not sure how you would get round the initial 'living in them' period, but they would certainly form a good base for Steampunk holiday lettings. Then on the otherhand, how do residential canal boats get round the permanent residence thing?? More research needed in this area.

Could you form a kind of co-op wherby one buys part of a landshare,  say two rail coaches, does them up, lives in one and lets the other, there-by building up capital to purchase/build a more permanent residence?

Initial (and I mean VERY initial sums) show that a weekly rental at £500 could return £26,000 per year. Obviously there would be a lotof outgoings to consider and you wouldn't necessarily be booked every week, but three to five years could see a healthy return on investment. I'm not going to pretend to suddenly be an expert business woman, because I'm not and I'm probably getting over excited by a few noughts and pound signs. Someone bring me back down to earth, please!

[MechanicalMouse]

We looked at buying a caravan as a second home recently. To clarify the laws regarding caravans.

ON land marked for residential usage you can live in a caravan forever, 356 days a year. There may be certain ordnances or by laws that forbid the placement of a caravan, but on residential land there is no issue.

For a caravan on a campsite being used as a second/holiday home you can stay in it for 11 months of the year, depending on the  campsites regulations. I don't know the ins and outs but its to do with permanant residency and the way the land is zoned.

On agricultural land you can stay for 2 week in a caravan, after that you need to get planning permission for an agricultural workers dwelling. It is fairly easy to get temporary authorisation if you can prove need to be on the land 24/7.

[Angus A Fitziron]

This is a really interesting thread! M.Mouse, over 20 years ago, my family and I lived in an old static caravan on my front garden, whilst I took the upper storey off our bungalow and rebuilt it as a mansard (Dutch barn) roof. There were no questions from the council or building department (who were regular visitors) and I know now that there were no ordinances, bye laws or caveats on the deeds that prevented me doing so, although I ignored that aspect at the time! (Needs must ...)

5 of us lived in the van from September through 'til Christmas (I told the builder he would be finished by Christmas or we were all moving in with him!) and it was cosy but cramped. However, investigation of the van afterwards showed the damage done by damp over just three months. I think for long term accomodation, very careful design must go into insulation, ventilation, air flow etc., otherwise a very unhealthy environment will develop very quickly.

So, from your investigation, it sounds like planning permission is less of a problem, but would a structure, designed to be used as living space, have to meet all the building regulations as if it were a house, or are there other regulations more applicable? The Colne Valley Railway nearby, used to use a restaurant car as a cafeteria, but in the winter, the place streamed with condensation from the kitchen and everywhere was soaked. I think a carriage would have a very short life span if used for cooking and sleeping in.

[MechanicalMouse]

Thank you Angus. Condensation may be an issue that will need to be looked at.

I took the wife to the GCR valentine special a few years ago, the condensation was so bad it was causing puddles at the bottom of the windows.

Saying that our brick and mortar house suffers from it badly far worse and there's only 6 of us in a much bigger area..

[Angus A Fitziron]

The original bungalow was pretty poor in that respect. It was built in about 1952 and during a particularly warm summer, the Marley floor tiles sweated so much my foot stuck to one and as I turned I tore the cartilage in my knee - an injury that has since come back. We took the roof off to get more room upstairs but in designing the new roof, I insisted on large interstices in the structure so we could get 2 - 300 mm of insulation in and still get a good air flow from the soffits to vented tiles on the ridge. As you can imagine this was a bit radical 20 odd years ago, but within code and it has paid off in a very comfortable, warm and cheaply heated house to bring up my 4 children in. The "new" roof acts very much like an enormous tea cosy, which was pretty much what I had in mind!

[lady joanna]

It would be interesting to visit a carriage that is currently being used as holiday accomodation to inspect the refurbishment work and consider options for heating and insulation.

Underfloor heating would be an option and easy to install (I should think, given the layout of a railway carriage). My sister has underfloor heating in her bungalow and I have found the overall temperature to be much more ambient throughout the building in comparison to the cold pockets in my house where the radiators just can't reach. I guess there would also be means to install double glazed units, although no doubt expensive with curved corners  .

Insulation, again, would be an interesting challenge. I don't know how thinly you could get away with insulating the walls without eating into the space too much. 9' wide doesn't give you much leverage 

[JennyWren]

http://www.titleyjunctionstation.co.uk/pages/railway_carriage.php

http://www.theoldstationallerston.co.uk/carriages

http://www.railholiday.co.uk/index.htm
 
just a few  carriage conversions i came accross