The British Steampunk Settlement thread - "Would You" Divergence

[MechanicalMouse]

Given the diverging ramblings of the "Would You" thread...
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18878.0.html

It has been suggested that the thread split. Here we will continue the conceptual visualisation of a British Steampunk settlement, while our American cousins actually get around and build theirs.

For those that did not read the above thread,we are discussing how one would go about setting up and designed a real working steampunk community.

[OswaldBastable]

I think someone may have touched upon this idea in the prior thread but what if we took over an old mill complex and converted it into workshops and living quarters with communal areas (common room, kitchens, library) it would certainly foster a good community spirit.

[Smaggers]

Been thinking about this.  Rather than have a farm as the basis of the setup per-se why not have a farm / restaurant /tea room?   The restaurant could serve seasonal stuff grown on the farm.  I've no idea how much such a thing would cost to set up or what the profit potential is.

[MechanicalMouse]

- all the essentials, just done in a more "steampunk way."  

Agreed; Victoriana notwithstanding, the idea should be to enthusiastically follow the technological thread down the steam rather than electric path, not to abandon the social and physical improvements made naturally along the way for the sake of "historical accuracy".

The thing is, well for me, steampunk doesn't mean it has to be steam per say! Just beautifully made. We can play and invent, but it makes no sense replacing basic working technology just to fit with an ideology.

I prefer a design for the 'village' which gives us quarters. So you'd have a core (center), the farms (another quarter, although it extends around the entire perimeter), a woodloand part, a docks (by the river - where slse 0 although it could also keep the airships) and an artisan quater.

Scratch that. Woodland surrounding, then fields, then the settlement proper, which has a core, docks, business quarter, inventors quarter...

Docks would looks nice, but the logistics of making a canal is a little out of out league. Maybe finding a plot near a large river would be good specially for water power.

[Draaka]

It sounds like a little piece of heaven, especially if it is right next to a river or canal, I would sell my house, buy a traditional narrow boat and dock up in a heartbeat.

[MechanicalMouse]

Been thinking about this.  Rather than have a farm as the basis of the setup per-se why not have a farm / restaurant /tea room?   The restaurant could serve seasonal stuff grown on the farm.  I've no idea how much such a thing would cost to set up or what the profit potential is.

Good idea, if successful could bring in more money than a farm alone. Of course the skills required are fairly high and statistically only 1 in 4 restaurants survive the first year.

But saying that, it starts the whole venture as a public attraction, making it easier to diverge and expand to other services.

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

The thing is, well for me, steampunk doesn't mean it has to be steam per say! Just beautifully made. We can play and invent, but it makes no sense replacing basic working technology just to fit with an ideology.

Isnt that a big part of Steaming things though; using old technology to achieve things? The practicality of the technology being part of the aesthetic; so that it isnt *just* "stick a cog on it" Otherwise it would be a bit like sticking a deisel engine in a traction engine body  which is missing the point, isnt it? 

So a steamy community would look first to old tech and only if it cannot be achieved using old tech only then look at new tech (with a question attached to whether it is really desirable at all, or whether its just a hangover from an assumption)....otherwise, what is the point differentiating from a modern tech society in the first place?

So I can see a point in, for example, the internet, but not, for example, dishwashers, microwaves, ipods, cell-phone-addiction and various other factors involved in a society addicted to speed and plastic...

*cough*

Mini-rant over, sorry 

[OswaldBastable]

Good point Sir Henry, though with certain items a lot of people would say they are perfectly ok if theyve been steamed in some way (such as phones, though I'm none too bothered about mine); striking a balance between being steamy and being practical is the key area for many I would think.

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

Good point Sir Henry, though with certain items a lot of people would say they are perfectly ok if theyve been steamed in some way (such as phones, though I'm none too bothered about mine); striking a balance between being steamy and being practical is the key area for many I would think.

Oh indeed I just think the aesthetic goes with a slower paced and more intimate attitude to life rather than a fast paced and insulated one. Kind of like the difference between buying your food from the market and buying it from the supermarket all smothered in plastic or processed.

*hides his soapbox so he doesnt keep climbing on it* 

[TimeTinker]

On the technology point:

I understand steampunk to be both science fiction and science fact.   Telecommunications etc would have firmly been in the realms of science fiction to the likes of Brunel and Stephenson but they would certainly have embraced the technology.

Is it not better to try and establish ground rules based on ethics rather than technology.  Steam boilers for example are terribly inefficient and potentially dangerous.  They are not an efficient use of resources in the construction or operation.  If the ethics of such a community were about quality of workmanship, durability and aesthetics then you can operate a steampunk community which could become a Utopia rather than a restrictive situation where technology is potentially perceived as undesireable.  

If people are looking to create some form of community which might be perceived as a sort of "steam-Amish" idea that is a seperate issue altogether.

I accept some of the points of your rant Sir Henry.  I just feel that differentiation based on Tech is actually historical re-enactment rather than steampunk.  If we could target embargos on disposable consumerism, addiction to gadgets for their own sake etc that is more than relevant and most definitely laudable.  Be careful though not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

One final example - if you run a restaurant you will have a large amount of dishwashing to do.  This can be done by hand or by machine.  (There are some very efficient machines available now which are not wasteful of resources such as hot water and detergent).  By using a dishwasher you can free people's time to be creative (perhaps making things to sell or preparing the food for the restaurant).  Technology itself is not the enemy.  Think motives and ethics first and establish these as ground rules not rules and restrictions or such a project would forever be doomed to the realms of talk and wind.

[MechanicalMouse]

Sorry I though you where hoping to shift everything to steam power.

So a steamy community would look first to old tech and only if it cannot be achieved using old tech only then look at new tech (with a question attached to whether it is really desirable at all, or whether its just a hangover from an assumption)

Yes that makes sence. As an example We have a dishwasher (it came with the house), but have never used it, it's surplus to need.

In the steampunk home we could have solid fuel stoves which also heat the hot water. They exist now, can't remember what they called. Nice simple technology, but there is no reason we couldn't have a normal gas or electric boiler.

If we wanted a steampunk transport around the village, it would be far easier to build a electric vehicle than a steam powered one. Electric fits the aesthetics.

Technology itself is not the enemy.  Think motives and ethics first and establish these as ground rules not rules and restrictions or such a project would forever be doomed to the realms of talk and wind.

Exactly, the right tool for the right job. While a Dishwasher at home for us is a superfluous luxury, in a restaurant it would be a necessity.

[GarethG]

AGA/Rayburn, by any chance? (disclaimer, other solid fuel stoves that also heat the water my be available)

[MechanicalMouse]

Rayburn

That's the bit of kit i'm thinking off. They also do very expensive sun glasses

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

*swaps soapbox for comfy chair (!) and glass of port*

Ah, far more civilised

On the technology point:

I understand steampunk to be both science fiction and science fact.   Telecommunications etc would have firmly been in the realms of science fiction to the likes of Brunel and Stephenson but they would certainly have embraced the technology.

Assuredly so, TT.

Part of the issue there is that modern society and modern technology grew to suit a pace of life and were embraced because they were better suited to that pace of life; something Mr Darwin would recognise. Hence, artificially restraining that process in any way is always going to be....tricky.

And yet steampunk has two sides to it (at least ); those being the aesthetic of brass, wood and cogs etc....all of which were a simple reflection of the other aspect, the practical. Victorian science almost certainly did not embrace the aesthetic in the way we do...if they had access to steel, plastic and microchips, they would have probably pounced upon them but in doing so moved on to a society with a different aesthetic and pace.... Which leaves us with a dilema; how to maintain the aesthetic and pace without it just being a veneer upon the surface....as a community based upon such a veneer will not last long at all, as it will be all show and little substance. 

As a purely aesthetic matter, without looking to form a stable community, these things do not really come into play; as we can all very easily and happily get on with using the technology of the modern world whilst dressing and behaving in a less "modern" manner. Artistic communities are not frequently stable or lasting though

I accept some of the points of your rant Sir Henry.  I just feel that differentiation based on Tech is actually historical re-enactment rather than steampunk.  If we could target embargos on disposable consumerism, addiction to gadgets for their own sake etc that is more than relevant and most definitely laudable.  Be careful though not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Indeed....but I think it bares noting that "disposable" society is built upon instability.....and so a community built upon instability would be hard pressed to not fall into disposability. 

[OswaldBastable]

Major,

SteamAmish is my word for the day!

Your totally right in that we arnt reenacting the Victorian/Edwardian period we are reimagining it so we can have whatever technology we want as long as it integrates into the aesthetics ideas we all generally hold.

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

Rayburn

That's the bit of kit i'm thinking off. They also do very expensive sun glasses

 

Rayburn Aviators - the choice for the discerning Airship Pilot 

[JennyWren]

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14090758

this place is up for sale, and i think could make a lovelly Steampunk/ collective/ community


I know it has WWII bunker below as well

[TimeTinker]

Sorry Sir Henry. I'm a bit confused about your response to my post.

I suggested the focus be to stop disposable consumerism.  Are you agreeing with me in your final sentence or disagreeing?

I am not disagreeing with you about the veneer effect if we can call it that.  Personally I aspire towards things which are made to be practical, hardwearing and durable as well as aesthetically pleasing.  Sticking to Victorian technology however - which is inherently wasteful of resources (e.g. fuel) is simply another form of indulgent consumerism in my opinion.

In my idea of a steampunk world the aesthetics and practicalities would be combined seamlessly just as they are in many Victorian buildings etc.  Cast iron girders etc often have decorative details for example.  Of course this is not true in all Victorian constructions etc since there was usually a cost implication to it and lower budget buildings were often spartanly utilitarian and are often ugly.

Build houses that meet the highest standards of energy efficiency using the best available materials and being aware of the environmental costs of delivering those materials to the site etc.  Aesthetically design the houses to suit  Steampunk tastes.  Use renewable resources (solar, wind, hydro plus willow etc as a solid fuel and bio deisel) as a way to make the community sustainable and seperate from the resource hungry wider world.  If the community is self sufficient and self maintaining it is the ultimate statement of independence from disposable society and inherently more stable as a result of that independence.

Steampunk is about taking the best of the present and the best of the past forward into a bright new future.

Start with a blank canvas and draw up your plans. Be aspirational.

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

Sorry Sir Henry. I'm a bit confused about your response to my post.

I suggested the focus be to stop disposable consumerism.  Are you agreeing with me in your final sentence or disagreeing?

My apologies, I could have been clearer. I am agreeing with you but with a caveat that with higher efficiency came higher speed which manifested in a different ethic and aesthetic suited to the gain in speed etc. So its a fine line to walk between efficiency and archaic aesthetic  Speed and efficiency often go hand in hand, whilst the archaic aesthetic and more 'polite' (?) ethic of SP is in part about a slower pace with more time being taken; both between each other and in the crafts we work at.

Steampunk is about taking the best of the present and the best of the past forward into a bright new future.

Absolutely; tis just a fine and difficult line to walk

[Violet Rose]

Victorian society was built upon great economic (and gender) disparity - I would not like to see this or the class system replicated in the BSS. As William Morris (?) said: "when Adam delved and Eve span - who was then the gentleman?"

[Sir Henry Tolvaddon]

Victorian society was built upon great economic (and gender) disparity - I would not like to see this or the class system replicated in the BSS. As William Morris (?) said: "when Adam delved and Eve span - who was then the gentleman?"

Indeed yes.....although today we often act so across national boundaries (with a variety of (often child and woman staffed) sweatshops providing our own little luxuries, or supporting a global market that makes such affordable), but that really is a whole new thread in itself   

[stardust]

Build houses that meet the highest standards of energy efficiency using the best available materials and being aware of the environmental costs of delivering those materials to the site etc.  Aesthetically design the houses to suit  Steampunk tastes.  Use renewable resources (solar, wind, hydro plus willow etc as a solid fuel and bio deisel) as a way to make the community sustainable and seperate from the resource hungry wider world.  If the community is self sufficient and self maintaining it is the ultimate statement of independence from disposable society and inherently more stable as a result of that independence.

Steampunk is about taking the best of the present and the best of the past forward into a bright new future.

Start with a blank canvas and draw up your plans. Be aspirational.

i was just reading through this thread and trying to word a response in my head and then came across this, which says everything i had wanted to say!

i think my ideal would be a combination of steampunk and modern renewable technology. i love the theory of steam engines chugging around the farm but if it is to be a profitable venture (or at least make enough money to stay open) then i believe renewable energy to be far more sensible. either that or shire horses. i think a community with an ecological ideal would be very sustainable, and having lived in eco-communities before, i found we naturally did quite steampunk type things in order to be ecological. for example, our outdoor shower was an old radiator which we would light a fire underneath and it was lovely and warm.

[TimeTinker]

The historian in me argues that Victorian society was not built upon a great gender and economic disparity but had merely inherited this from millenia of previous generations.  Whilst I am not denying such disparity was most clearly present and as such is not to be replicated I must point out that this period was fundamental in the change towards the freedoms we now all enjoy.  At the start of the period for example many men did not have the vote.  The change in voting legislation which granted more men freedoms are cited by the Suffragists and Suffragettes in their own struggle etc and thus were an integral part of the women's rights movement.  You can't blame the Victorian progressives for not instantly sweeping away the injustices of the past but should instead applaud them for the progress that was made.  History is an evolving story and you can't snapshot a period and condemn it in isolation.  Many many people made fortunes in the Victorian period and this economic mobilty went a long way towards diluting the class system etc.  There is much that was less than desireable in the Victorian past but there are also many moves forward to more than make up for it.

This does lead to my fundamental point though about a steampunk community.  It should be inflenced by the Victorian but not aspire to be Victorian.  

Set the bows for a bright future, enagage all engines and make best speed!!!


(Post script - I agree wholeheartedly Stardust but you can go further still.  Making a boiler on the volcano stove model uses much less fuel to heat the same amount of water for example than a fire uner a radiator.  That is preceisely why we should be looking forward as well as back.  If you need less fuel you don't need mechanisation to produce the fuel (even firewood needs cutting and drying) etc.)

[OswaldBastable]

Victorian society was built upon great economic (and gender) disparity - I would not like to see this or the class system replicated in the BSS. As William Morris (?) said: "when Adam delved and Eve span - who was then the gentleman?"

I dont think thats something can be just levelled at the Victorians to be fair (more the entire history of the human race) and its generally ackowledged that SP is about taking the bits we like and ignoring the rest; I dont think anyones suggesting we build a workhouse in the centre of the town.

[Violet Rose]

True true.

I was just wondering if anyone would be volunteering for factory/dark satanic mill work ... I foresee we may have a superfluity of chiefs and not enough indians