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Author Topic: The Club of the Damned- the Fortean Society  (Read 12033 times)
Herr Döktor
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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2009, 10:33:31 pm »

Remember: unexplained doesn't mean unexplainable.

I like that, I may have to steal it...

Wink
Don't worry that's what I did.
Probably from Sagan

If you are going to steal, steal from the best...

Meantime, I've always liked Fort's favorite aphorism 'One measures a circle starting anywhere'

Smiley
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Sulecen
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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2009, 10:48:11 pm »

'twas by happy chance I ended up there.. even when i was on the dig the location hadnt crossed my mind. Was a weird experience that I shall never forget for aslong as I live.

Are there any people here who belive in or have expeirenced un-natural inhabitants of this world that are not ghosts?

I must say that I myself am a believer in other "un-natural inhabitants" that may be upon the edge of our experience. I have had an interest in such things since I was young however had my belief tempered by having scientific ideals instilled in me early on. However the wonder of the world has never left me, and find myself feeling quite sure there are things out there that we do not know of, or that maybe our folk tales speak of with at least a grain of truth.

I have had several experiences that have somewhat bolstered my belief in such things, though one such experience sticks out in my mind. It was about 2004 and I was working in a factory at the time that specialized in sports apparel, which I must say the least likely of places for something like this to happen. I was at the end of a conveyor belt picking up T-shirts that had gone through an oven to dry the screen printing ink on them. I remember being absolutely miserable, and wishing the damn thing would stop since the job seemed both endless and hellish due to the extreme heat. As I was thinking this I turn back and I see a small black shape skitter across the ground and underneath the machine. I got the impression of a shape of a soccer ball with black fur, for it moved quite fast, and suddenly the conveyor belt shut down completely for seemingly no reason.

It could have been coincidence, and the skeptic in me says to keep that in my mind, but as I said who knows what could happen? There's a lot out there, and I'm a believer that if there are supernatural entities we may just not be able to see them, due to our own skepticism or that they don't want to be seen, I mean we are a species who are destroying the natural systems of the planet, I wouldn't exactly want to have tea and crumpets with us either.
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The Road goes ever on and on
    Down from the door where it began.
    Now far ahead the Road has gone,
    And I must follow, if I can,
    Pursuing it with eager feet,
    Until it joins some larger way
    Where many paths and errands meet.
    And whither then? I cannot say.
Herr Klinger
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« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2009, 01:36:46 am »

There was a study done in the catacombs under France where a groups of skeptics and believers of the paranormal were led through. None of the skeptics reported anything, but for some reason the believers all felt similar experiences in the same rooms, without communicating to the other test subjects what they experienced. The people performing the test thought it was possible for skeptics to actually not allow things to happen, sort of like the bit about simply observing something and changing the outcome. Just some food for thought.
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2009, 01:48:19 am »

There was a study done in the catacombs under France where a groups of skeptics and believers of the paranormal were led through. None of the skeptics reported anything, but for some reason the believers all felt similar experiences in the same rooms, without communicating to the other test subjects what they experienced. The people performing the test thought it was possible for skeptics to actually not allow things to happen, sort of like the bit about simply observing something and changing the outcome. Just some food for thought.
Or it's possible that believers are more likely to report something that isn't there.
Believers would be more familiar with stuff like cold spots and report any change in temperature as a paranormal occurrence.

It really depends how similar there experiences are.

And wouldn't the place need to be proven to be haunted before a test like this would be accurate?
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2009, 01:22:14 pm »

i suppose it depends on what in intent of the experiement is, if its sociological, wether or not the place is haunted is irrelevant,  that is to say it is to test the reactions of certain types of people under certain circumstances in a specific kind of setting.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!"
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2009, 01:28:59 pm »

I was referring to this bit which I think was the conclusion the experimenters reached:
Quote
The people performing the test thought it was possible for skeptics to actually not allow things to happen, sort of like the bit about simply observing something and changing the outcome.

I don't think you can fairly conclude that skeptics block paranormal occurrences when there is no definitive evidence that such occurrences actually happen in that location.
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2009, 01:33:32 pm »

There was a study done in the catacombs under France where a groups of skeptics and believers of the paranormal were led through. None of the skeptics reported anything, but for some reason the believers all felt similar experiences in the same rooms, without communicating to the other test subjects what they experienced.

My apologies if I start to sound like a broken record to anyone else (I am already noticing this in myself). I have found myself reading far more than I would have imagined possible this week about matters relating to Grebennikov's cavernous structures effect; the last thing I was reading concerned a cluster of UFO sightings above an area known to have many disused mines and subterranean excavations, and now this report about the French catacombs. It seems very much to me that this is an area that demands further investigation.
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2009, 11:22:51 pm »

I don't think you can fairly conclude that skeptics block paranormal occurrences when there is no definitive evidence that such occurrences actually happen in that location.

How is such definative evidence obtained?
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2009, 01:44:46 am »

How is such definative evidence obtained?
Well that's the rub. Such evidence might not be obtainable because hauntings mightn't be supernatural.

But if they where and it was, you'd still need a theoretical framework of hauntings and how they work.

To do science at something to need to make testable falsifiable predictions based on that framework and then, depending on the results, either modify or confirm your theory.

So far (and please correct me if I'm wrong) no ghosthunter has ever produced such a framework or made testable and falsifiable predictions based on it.

So without confirming empirically that those catacombs are indeed haunted they cannot exclude the possibility that the "believers" they tested were confusing natural phenomena for supernatural ones.
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2009, 02:14:58 am »

No i belive no real proof of a ghost or such has ever been made, but that brings us too the point of what would the proof be made of? Can they be empiricaly proven?

Miss Kittybriton, i would like to hear more about this cavern effect.. could you possibly point me in the correct direction?
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2009, 02:27:40 am »

For anyone interested, you can learn more about the cavernous structures effect (CSE) in the following sites:
It seems there is probably more to the phenomenon than is described in the available materials, and it also seems likely that Grebennikov may have chosen to make his discoveries more obscure as a result of concern that his discovery would be used in ways that he was not happy about. But I believe that the nature of energy waves of various types may be related; the best I have at the moment is very vague thoughts about the vibration of atoms.
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2009, 02:36:34 am »

No i belive no real proof of a ghost or such has ever been made, but that brings us too the point of what would the proof be made of? Can they be empiricaly proven?

Well if it can be observed it can be proven.
There are many phenomena that are much rarer than ghost sightings but have been proven.
For example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noctilucent_cloud

But the thing is because noone can actually agree what ghosts are or how they form or what they can do there's no way to know what shape or form that proof will be.


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stockton_joans
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« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2009, 04:34:36 pm »

as i approach all paranormal phenomenon
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
with a healthy dose of scepticism, and I've been reading the Fortean times for many years now i think I'll join this little group Cool
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2009, 05:46:13 pm »

Then prehaps we should endeavour to set down our own personal guidelines for this club on what is considerd a ghost? I am of course suggesting guidlines for within this group only so that further discussion can be, a little more.. objective.

I personaly find it very difficult to belive that such things do not exist (whetether they are the spirit of a departed organism or some natural phenomena) since there are so many rational people out there who have claimed to see such things.
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2009, 10:52:57 pm »

Then prehaps we should endeavour to set down our own personal guidelines for this club on what is considerd a ghost? I am of course suggesting guidlines for within this group only so that further discussion can be, a little more.. objective.

I'd go with a full or partial intelligence of an individual that survives the death of the body and can somehow interact with physical world at some level.

I personaly find it very difficult to belive that such things do not exist (whetether they are the spirit of a departed organism or some natural phenomena) since there are so many rational people out there who have claimed to see such things.

But what about all the rational people that say the opposite?

regardless of how rational someone is we are all fallible and all subject to certain inbuilt biases.
Take these for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Couple that with general stuff like bad memory and the tendency to exaggerate it's entirely possible that these rational people are wrong.

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stockton_joans
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« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2009, 10:57:52 am »

Quote
But what about all the rational people that say the opposite?
]

a rational person claiming not to have seen something does not prove its nonexistence.

I, from what I've been told, have seen a ghost.

when i was very young i saw an old lady at the end of my bed and a few days later when i went to visit my grandmother i saw a picture she had of one of her friends, i pointed out that the old lady in the picture was the same as the one who had visited by bedroom and it turned out she had died a few days previously, although i am unsure as to when exactly she passed away in relation to her nocturnal visit.

i remember none of this and the sequence of events was recounted to be by my mother some years later so it isn't what you could call concrete evidence of the existence of ghosts, but i does raise some interesting questions.
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2009, 12:22:56 pm »

For all the  rational people who have NOT seen a ghost i bring you to a phrase often used in archaeology and one that is my signature on this very forum

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!... I untill my experience in the woods wwhould have personaly said that there is no such thing as ghosts.. yet here we are
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2009, 01:03:58 pm »

Ghosts are indeed, one of the most difficult phenomena to examine scientifically. Were it not for my incessant posts to this forum, you might justifiably claim that I do not exist: you have never seen me (unless I am mistaken), and cannot cause me to appear upon demand (unless travel expenses are paid in advance and other arrangements can be made).
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2009, 01:49:29 pm »

a rational person claiming not to have seen something does not prove its nonexistence.
No anecdotal evidence can prove or disprove an extraordinary claim like ghost.
That's my point.

I, from what I've been told, have seen a ghost.

when i was very young i saw an old lady at the end of my bed and a few days later when i went to visit my grandmother i saw a picture she had of one of her friends, i pointed out that the old lady in the picture was the same as the one who had visited by bedroom and it turned out she had died a few days previously, although i am unsure as to when exactly she passed away in relation to her nocturnal visit.

i remember none of this and the sequence of events was recounted to be by my mother some years later
so it isn't what you could call concrete evidence of the existence of ghosts, but i does raise some interesting questions.
So you realise that this is the more reasonable and likely explanation: that you or your mother are simply misremembering.

For all the  rational people who have NOT seen a ghost i bring you to a phrase often used in archaeology and one that is my signature on this very forum

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!...
No but the absence of evidence combined with the presence of evidence or possibility of a more likely explanation is kind of evidence of absence.

I untill my experience in the woods wwhould have personaly said that there is no such thing as ghosts.. yet here we are
But what about your experience is convincing?
You heard crying which you say could have another explanation i.e. animal or an actual baby.
And there is no connection between between the crying and the skeleton other than they were nearby each other.
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2009, 06:44:06 pm »

Well from my own personal experience i know for certain that amongst the local wildlife there is no such animal that makes a sound in any way quite like that. Further more why on earth would there be a crying baby out in the woods in late september at such a ridiculous time of night?

Also you say that the absence of evidence combined with evidence of absence is sufficient to prove this absnce... what evidence is there to disprove the existence of supernatural beings?.. if anything there is FAR more evidence to suggest that things do exsist outside our current understanding... prehaps I can offer a  fictional scenario to illustrate this :

Masses of less skeptical people: we have all seen ghosts at seperate times in seperate place in our lives
Masses of skeptics: no you haven't Ghosts do not exist. what proof do you have?
Masses of less skeptical people: Nonsense, our reasoning of ' rational thought' says that ghost cannot exist therefore you have not seen a ghost.

I know who's opinion I would trust afterall we do live in the age of 'Re-enchantment'

(for anyone further interested i can highly recomend a book by dr. Chris Partridge called "the re-enchantment of the west".. for anyone more avidly interested I have a whole reading list for you... 
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2009, 07:10:17 pm »

Well from my own personal experience i know for certain that amongst the local wildlife there is no such animal that makes a sound in any way quite like that. Further more why on earth would there be a crying baby out in the woods in late september at such a ridiculous time of night?
Well it's not impossible that a baby could be out there. And in personal experience cats having sex and foxes make a variety of odd sounds.
It's also possible that it's pranksters messing with you.
To conclude that what you heard was a ghost you'd have to exclude all of these (and more) possibilities.
Even then it's still an anecdote, with no way to independently verify the facts your story isn't really evidence of anything.

Also you say that the absence of evidence combined with evidence of absence is sufficient to prove this absnce... what evidence is there to disprove the existence of supernatural beings?.. if anything there is FAR more evidence to suggest that things do exsist outside our current understanding...
No I said it was evidence against, not definitive proof against. Logically you can't prove a negative.
There is certainly stuff currently outside our understanding, but since it's outside our understanding how can you claim to understand it as a ghost?

Masses of less skeptical people: we have all seen ghosts at seperate times in seperate place in our lives
Masses of skeptics: no you haven't Ghosts do not exist. what proof do you have?
Masses of less skeptical people: Nonsense, our reasoning of ' rational thought' says that ghost cannot exist therefore you have not seen a ghost.
No it should be more like this.

Masses of less skeptical people: we have all seen ghosts at seperate times in seperate place in our lives
Masses of skeptics: Can you be sure? There is no good evidence to support the existence for ghosts. Perhaps there are more likely explanations for your experiences.
Masses of less skeptical people: Nonsense, our reasoning of ' rational thought' says that ghost cannot exist therefore you have not seen a ghost

I know who's opinion I would trust afterall we do live in the age of 'Re-enchantment'
You shouldn't trust just opinion, it's easily influenced by personal biases.
I trust verifiable evidence.
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Archaeo_fozz
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« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2009, 11:44:28 am »

This seems to have become a pointless and circular battle of semantics and has veerd the thread far of course. May i suggest this thread regains its puropse as a fortean and this discussion gets taken elsewhere?
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stockton_joans
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« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2009, 05:53:07 pm »

so, crop circles, whats all that about then Wink
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Herr Döktor
Gadgeteer, Contraptionist, and Inventor, FVSS
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« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2009, 06:33:33 pm »

so, crop circles, whats all that about then Wink

A childhood friend, who I lost touch with while he went on to college and subsequently university, gained a qualification in meteorology- when I met him socially after his working in the field of weather, I asked him his learned and considered opinion on the matter of crop circles, he replied that taking into consideration that cup and ring marks in British Celtic sites may be representations of prehistoric crop circles, and the mention of the Devil cutting circles of corn in Bungay during the 17th or 18th century in a printed tract of the time, and that the phenomenon may date back for thousands of years, his best guess was:

"Space Aliens"

It's since transpired that the answer is most likely to be a combination of Young Farmers and cider, with the odd (by which I mean 'peculiar') environmental artist.

Wink
 
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2009, 06:42:52 pm »

http://www.circlemakers.org/

Personally I don't see how ruining thousands of dollars/pounds of crops can be described as "environmental art".  Wink
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