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Author Topic: Aether!  (Read 4634 times)
helios
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eliasvonhelios
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« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2009, 02:19:48 am »

From Time Cube:
Quote
-1 x -1= +1 is WRONG, it is academic stupidity and is evil.


*Ahem*
Doh-ray-me-far-so-lah-tee-doh.
Mememememeeeeee.
Alright I'm ready.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Captain Carne
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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2009, 02:34:13 pm »

Well i was looking through some pictures of guns and stuff and alot of them use crystals and stuff i thought that was to do with aether, hence why i brought it up.

I like the idea of aether, i mean i love quantum mechanics so yah, and i think its sort of ecentric thing the victorias loved, so whynot include it in steam punk?

Has anyone got any aether related items? Smiley i would love to see them!
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JohnSix
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Doctor of Magic

Johnsix
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2009, 05:35:07 pm »

Actually here's a thought experiment.
How would you harness Aether if it did exist? How could you convert it into power? Or would it be used for something else?

Let's say it the Michaelson-Morley experiment showed the existence of aether by measuring the Earth's movement through it.
And that it is indeed the medium through which light waves propagate.

I'd put my bet on some kind of aether sail or windmill. The sail would be effected by aether (unlike normal matter) and would turning the movement of the Earth through the aether into mechanical motion.
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Atterton
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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2009, 06:20:22 pm »

The important part if aether was real is that you might be able to travel through space without using rocket propulsion. If you had a material than can interact with aether, you could use it to make propellors and use that as your spaceships method of propulsion.
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2009, 06:43:25 pm »

So harnessing Aether really depends on having something that can interact with it.

So then what kind of matter could do it and how would you make it?
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Atterton
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2009, 06:58:54 pm »

All depends on what you decide aether is. For my money, I think superconductors might be a simple and easy solution for it.
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JohnSix
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Johnsix
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2009, 07:30:19 pm »

Superconductors and mirrors.  Wink
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Captain Carne
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« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2009, 07:42:23 pm »

hmm i reacon you get a material e.g crystal and react it with and create a bang with it ?
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Atterton
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Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2009, 07:48:29 pm »

Setting fire to the aether might be a bad idea.   Undecided Also it might be easier to use normal rockets.
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Captain Carne
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« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2009, 07:59:03 pm »

Hmm i saw like a gun with a sort of glass fishbowl like thing where the normal revolver part of the gun would be with a crystal in there, fill that with aether and boom! Cheesy
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Khem Caigan
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« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2009, 08:43:50 pm »

I'd put my bet on some kind of aether sail or windmill. The sail would be effected by aether (unlike normal matter) and would turning the movement of the Earth through the aether into mechanical motion.

The folks at NASA have something
very like this in mind for their future
missions:

Propellant-Free Space
Propulsion Technology Marks
Critical Milestone at NASA
Marshall Center

http://tinyurl.com/cv8ou8

Spacecraft May Fly on "Empty"
Using Propulsive Tether Concept
NASA/Marshall Project Selected
for Development

http://tinyurl.com/cqktk6

Electrodynamic Tether
From Wikipedia
http://tinyurl.com/cnv7bt

Space Tether
http://tinyurl.com/dcj5r5

The Electric Sail - A New
Propulsion Method Which
May Enable Fast Missions
To The Outer Solar System

by Pekka Janhunen ( .PDF )
http://tinyurl.com/ccp5ed

Coupled Electrodynamic Tether
Electrostatic Propulsion
System
( .PDF )
by D. Nicolini
http://tinyurl.com/df63qz

Scientist Sells the Electric
Sail for Space Propulsion

by Barry E. DiGregorio
First Published May 2008
http://tinyurl.com/cr8l58

Electrodynamic Tether and
Method of Use


United States Patent 6116544

Abstract:

The present invention comprises an
electrodynamic tether structure and
a method of use.

The structure of the tether taught by
the present invention is a short, wide,
interconnected multiwire (compared to
the long, narrow single wires of the
prior art) conductive tether whose
area maximizes electrodynamic drag
while simultaneously minimizing the
Area-Time-Product swept by the tether
during its operating life.

The preferred tether length is two
kilometers to five kilometers.

The preferred tether mass is one
percent to five percent of the spacecraft
mass.

The method of operation comprises
orienting the tether structure at an angle
to the local vertical to maximize electrodynamic
drag on the host spacecraft and minimize
tether instability.

The angle of 35.26 degrees is preferred.

Inventors:

Robert L. Forward
(Houston, TX)
Robert P. Hoyt
(Seattle, WA)

Publication Date:
09/12/2000

Filing Date:
09/12/1997

Assignee:

Tethers Unlimited, Inc.
(Seattle, WA)

( .PDF @FreePatentsOnline )
http://tinyurl.com/p5dxyk

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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"Let us create vessels and sails fashioned for the heavenly Æther, for there
will be plenty of people who do not shrink from the vastness of space."
~ Johannes Kepler, letter to Galileo Galilei, 1609.
JohnSix
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Doctor of Magic

Johnsix
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2009, 08:51:40 pm »

Electrodynamic tether would be different from a supposed aether sail.
The tether requires power from the spacecraftto work. The aether sail mightn't.

A better analogy would be a solar sail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail
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Khem Caigan
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« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2009, 09:04:21 pm »

Electrodynamic tether would be different from a supposed aether sail.
The tether requires power from the spacecraft to work.
Current tether tech uses power from
the ambient, not from onboard the
spacecraft.

From the article at the first link that
I provided :

" The Propulsive Small Expendable
Deployer system - called ProSEDS - is
a tether-based propulsion experiment
that draws power from the space
environment around Earth
, allowing
the transfer of energy from the Earth
to the spacecraft. "

Similarly, deep space tethers are being
designed to draw power from the space
environment around the Sun, that is,
the entire Solar system.

And I quite agree that Solar Sails are
another perfectly viable mode of travel
through the æther.
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Captain Carne
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« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2009, 10:38:42 pm »

Does anyone have any idea about them crystal guns you see floating about steampunk society? or is this jus a lil pet obsession of mine now xD
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Atterton
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Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2009, 10:44:34 pm »

People put crystals in them because it looks nice and seems mysterious. Were you expecting something more specific?
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JohnSix
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Doctor of Magic

Johnsix
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2009, 11:23:48 pm »


Current tether tech uses power from
the ambient, not from onboard the
spacecraft.
Whoops my mistake.
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Captain Carne
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« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2009, 12:14:09 am »

People put crystals in them because it looks nice and seems mysterious. Were you expecting something more specific?

i was just wodering the reasoning behind it?
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Atterton
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Only The Shadow knows


« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2009, 12:15:17 am »

It looks nice and seems mysterious.
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Copper Sulphate
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« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2009, 09:33:18 am »

Check Einstein's Cosmological Constant and the accelerating expansion of the universe it seems to power. Very much a modern version of the Aether theory and not outdated at all, quite the contrary.
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« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2009, 10:57:08 am »

Hmm you think aether could create a hover like ship?
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Jacob Steep
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« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2009, 02:23:59 pm »

... to harness the æther as it where a beam along which one could travel/direct ones craft, similar to the light bridge carrier thing in 'Tron'

The trick would be twofold:

one,  to have some means of steering/control over the direction and rate of travel

and two,  to ensure that the harness/propulsion system merely utilised the æther to enable one to pass through that particular point in space without actually consuming any resource, in effect 'to pass by/through and leave no trace of that passing' as if to pull oneself/craft along as one might along a string/rope/cable etc.

to me the æther would be as the 'dust' in His Dark Materials.
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Mr. Boltneck
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« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2009, 07:55:40 pm »

Sadly, if I am remembering any of my math and physics, the Cosmological Constant, dark energy, etc. are not the return of aether theory. Modern physics has such things as field theory. The older concept of Luminiferous Ether was that if light propagated as a wave, it had to be a wave in some sort of medium. So the disproving of (a)ether was essentially the demonstration that light was not behaving like waves in some other entity, unlike, say, sound in air, or waves on a pond. In a sense, it was a late vestige of a conceptual problem dating back to classical times, which is the idea (or dislike of the idea) of nothingness, or vacuum.
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Copper Sulphate
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« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2009, 11:11:58 pm »

Sadly, if I am remembering any of my math and physics, the Cosmological Constant, dark energy, etc. are not the return of aether theory.


Well, yes and no. Smiley

Of course it isn't the return of aether theory in the strictest mathematical sense, yet the background for the introduction of both it and the cosmological constant are eerily similar. Quantum mechanics and photons neatly did away with the need for an aether, yet the aether was introduced as you say to overcome a seemingly unsolvable problem in the world view of the Victorian scientists.

For its part then the cosmological constant, Lambda, was introduced by Einstein as a purely mathematical construct in an attempt to balance his mathematical model of the universe. IE. to also fix a problem in his world view by assigning a physical property to empty space, though a different one and for different reasons.

Lambda has the odd property of representing a negative gravitational energy density of a pure vacuum, resulting in a repulsive gravitational force between regions of empty space. Without it there was no way to model a static universe in Einstein's general theory of relativity, and a static universe is what Einstein and his contemporaries at the time assumed/thought was what we had. He later called the introduction of Lambda 'my greatest mistake' once the expansion of the universe was discovered by Hubble et al.

The odd thing is that lately we have discovered that not only is the universe expanding. The expansion is in fact picking up in speed. And the easiest way to explain this from a theoretical point of view appears to be to assume that Lambda does in fact have a non-zero value in Einstein's calculations.

Which is seven ways of awesome due to the possible theoretical implications. Grin

Note that the zero point energy that some people are referring to, is usually not Lambda but a different property of vacuum, that of random pair production in the quantum foam. This results - at least in theory - in a non-zero energy and mass density of a vacuum.

C.S.
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Khem Caigan
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« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2009, 03:26:17 pm »

Kind of ties in with my own personal theory of everyone from Einstein on down being completely wrong about "Gravity." Rather than being something intrinsic to matter or caused by matter, it is my considered opinion that it is an as yet undiscovered "overpressure" constant throughout the physical Universe, and partially blocked from one direction ("down") by an object of planetary mass. Thus, you are not 'pulled' towards the planet from below, but rather 'pushed' into the planet from above. Perhaps it is aether. Wink

Nicolas Fatio de Duillier
From Wikipedia
http://tinyurl.com/l7odpb

Nicolas Fatio and
the Cause of Gravity

http://tinyurl.com/mjtaqr

Georges-Louis Le Sage

From Wikipedia
http://tinyurl.com/lsdu45

Le Sage's Theory of Gravitation
From Wikipedia
http://tinyurl.com/yrvgml

Pushing Gravity :
New Perspectives on
Le Sage's Theory of Gravitation

Matthew R. Edwards (ed.)
http://tinyurl.com/lhs4n8
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Berty Boleyn
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« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2009, 03:09:21 pm »

People put crystals in them because it looks nice and seems mysterious. Were you expecting something more specific?


i was just wodering the reasoning behind it?


http://www.wetanz.com/holics/index.php?catid=4

Weta use aether as a vague explanation of the workings of Dr Grordbort's ray guns, calling them "Infallible Aether Oscillators".
Stricly speaking Grordbort's stuff is more 1930's retro-futuristic than steampunk, and of course aether theory had been abandoned long before then, but it is just for fun after all.  Wink

As for the crystals, I believe the highly regular, fractal nature of crystals lends them an air of techno-mysticism. Quartz is used in some watches after all, so they play a role in technology.

I always think a crystal should be used in the manner of a lense, not as a power source. Firing an energy beam through a particular crystal could be said (in an imaginary tech at least) to have some effect on matter. A ray gun that concentrated X-rays through a ruby attached to a flask of distilled phlogiston would sound pausible enough to me once I entirely dispense with reality and the scientific endeavour of the last 200 years!

(Phlogiston - now there's an old theory!  Grin)
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