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Author Topic: "For Goths with money"  (Read 5781 times)
Reni Valentine
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« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2009, 10:51:02 pm »


pet peeve - both are movements and technically what you're speaking of is fashion. style is created by designers; fashion is what is worn. the terms are used interchangeably and it bugs me.


Interesting. I would say fashion was created by designers and the 'norm' of society. Style to me is a personal way of dressing/behaving.

common misconception. fashion is what is accepted by any group of people. style is what is introduced - it may or may not become fashion. what is in style is not necessarily in fashion; to be in fashion, it must have first been a style. i have spent far too many years in uni trying to untrain my brain from thinking it the other way 'round as well. it's a bit confusing until you're used to it i suppose. the way that i remember it is in terms of ordering fabrics and garments - catalogs list the style number, not the fashion number. cataogs introduce styles; fashion magazines simply show them off.

what you're referring to is "personal style" - it's not necessarily fashionable, but at one point it was a style (whether in whole or part).
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In all reality, "steampunk" is anachronistic, innit? Otherwise it's just Victorian dress-up.

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« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2009, 11:12:02 pm »

I'm talking Style. I'm just using fashion as a convenient example, even though it is only an element of Style. It made for a simpler comparison that way, albeit a somewhat inaccurate one.


Quote
the "flaw" (for want of a better term) in your sentiment, in my opinion that is - the way it reads does not seem to allow for people to be more than just steampunk or just goth. i don't feel that the two are mutually exclusive, but i quite like all the variants in between and even outside of the two.


And because I am talking Style, I am taking about cardinal examples. Absolutes.
Yes, people cross lines. No doubt. I'm just clarifying my opinion as to why I though Goth lacked elements of a Style - it is too big a pastiche of other things with a dark edge added.

Quote
another issue - there actually has been a fair bit of change within gothic fashion in the last fifteen years in which i've been involved in the "scene" alone. if you look at goth fashion from the 1970s through to today, it becomes apparent that not only has there been change there has also been growth and evolution. even though the page is a bit tongue-in-cheek, http://www.blackwaterfall.com/viewall.php is an example of the progression. most of the variations listed there didn't come about until the 1980s and 1990s. to tell the truth, i don't consider all of it "goth"; however, that's the nature of things where people are involved.


My point exactly - a dark version / reaction to whatever is going on in culture at large.

Quote
you take an outfit, add goggles, a waistcoat, and a pocketwatch and you've pretty much got instant steampunk, right? it's basically the same as what you said about goth.


No.
Steampunk is bigger than fashion. It has a lot more ideological elements that define it.

Goth is also bigger than fashion, but I don't think the elements are as unique or as far reaching. My opinion. Feel free to ignore it.

Quote
yes, people will judge goth or chav or scene or indie or steampunk based on appearance, but i don't feel limited by such.


Agreed. I don't feel limited either. The discussion was about absolutes. There are few absolutes in the everyday world.


« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 11:15:45 pm by Analog » Logged
Josh of Vernian Process
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« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2009, 04:44:11 pm »

In the UK 'goth rock' emerged from post-punk in the late seventies and early eighties. Mainly the eighties. Goth and Punk are two very different subcultures with Punks being (generally) far more actively anti-establishment and aggressive (not neccesarily violent). Goth fashion often borrows from romantic victorian clothing, fetish, cyber, hard-rock, fantasy vampire and metal wear. I guess I'm trying to say that, whilst Goth Rock came from the Post Punk and Punk movements musically, the subcultures are very different and I don't know any Goths who were once Punks or vice versa.

Well now you do. I was actually a Gutter Goth at one point. (a mixture of Gutter Punk and Goth... or at least that's what my friends called me). I happened to be homeless, and into Punk, Deathrock, Goth, New Wave, Post-Punk, Industrial, etc. I also happened to have a very jovial outlook on life (and still do). I also happened to dress like a crazy circus performer with lots of black, purple, red, green, and white in my outfits (Perkigoth was another term I heard used to describe this style). This was all back in 97/98. Some of my favorite music at that time all fell under dark with a sense of humor (Oingo Boingo, The Bolshoi, Strawberry Switchblade, Shriekback, 45 Grave, Danielle Dax, Nina Hagen, etc).

Actually the whole Deathrock scene is basically Goth-Punk, and at Deathrock events you are very likely to hear classic Punk and Goth music mixed together.
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Utini420
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« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2009, 05:26:49 pm »

A good friend of mine once said the only real difference between goths and punks was a preference for whine over beer....
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Honeythorn
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How unfortunate...


« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2009, 11:21:08 pm »


The entire thread subject is the biggest load of balls I've ever read in my life.

I am a goth, I am also a steampunk, along with many other things, I am NOT middle class. I live and grew up on a council estate, was badly educated and only have qualifications for minumum wage jobs. I can still manage to put a reasonably steamy outfit together, I can do the same with goth clothing . You do NOT need money and a university degree to do this.

 I really hate this kind of elitism. It's a bloody disgrace and horrifically offputting and disheartening  Angry Angry Angry Angry .
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Josh of Vernian Process
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« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2009, 11:23:13 pm »


The entire thread subject is the biggest load of balls I've ever read in my life.

I am a goth, I am also a steampunk, along with many other things, I am NOT middle class. I live and grew up on a council estate, was badly educated and only have qualifications for minumum wage jobs. I can still manage to put a reasonably steamy outfit together, I can do the same with goth clothing . You do NOT need money and a university degree to do this.

 I really hate this kind of elitism. It's a bloody disgrace and horrifically offputting and disheartening  Angry Angry Angry Angry .

I do believe the TC was simply stating that a friend of his described Steampunk that way to someone else. He wasn't saying it himself.
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Honeythorn
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How unfortunate...


« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2009, 12:00:13 am »

I never said he did. But that kind of elitism has been seen on here before by others, and will no doubt be seen again. And it really seriously riles me up.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 12:05:51 am by Honeythorn » Logged
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« Reply #82 on: August 04, 2009, 12:12:09 am »

I am a goth, I am also a steampunk, along with many other things, I am NOT middle class. I live and grew up on a council estate, was badly educated and only have qualifications for minumum wage jobs. I can still manage to put a reasonably steamy outfit together, I can do the same with goth clothing . You do NOT need money and a university degree to do this.

Forgive me if I misunderstand...but it seems to me that most of the posters on this thread have been making the point that steampunk (and maybe Goth, though fewer are talking about that) can be done on the cheap and is often more satisfying that way?  And forgive me again, if I've forgotten something, but I don't think university degrees have been brought up as any kind of necessity in this area...

Though I have seen the attitudes you describe elsewhere: (some; maybe?) other threads on here, other online communities, and in real life.  And it is pretty infuriating, mostly because it's stupid.   Angry
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« Reply #83 on: August 04, 2009, 12:25:37 am »

Well said, Miss Honeythorn!!

The basic requirements are a working imagination, a bit of spirit and a sense of fun.

Don't be put off or disheartened, dear, most of us are of your mind on this one.

As for the other bunch, well they'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

Dr. Q.

p.s. In any case, given that a lot of this steampunk business goes on inside your head or on sites like this, what do you need money for?

p.p.s. Mister Process, Miss Honeythorns comment was a perfectly relevant one in the context of replying to the question that was initially posed.  There's no need to bite.
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« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2009, 12:33:33 am »

I never said he did. But that kind of elitism has been seen on here before by others, and will no doubt be seen again. And it really seriously riles me up.

It's pretty commonly accepted that the vast majority of people here do not agree with such elitism, and it is usually chased out of here within minutes of being said.

Elitism is for the Goth message boards lol.
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Nyte
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« Reply #85 on: August 04, 2009, 05:21:30 am »


The entire thread subject is the biggest load of balls I've ever read in my life.

I am a goth, I am also a steampunk, along with many other things, I am NOT middle class. I live and grew up on a council estate, was badly educated and only have qualifications for minumum wage jobs. I can still manage to put a reasonably steamy outfit together, I can do the same with goth clothing . You do NOT need money and a university degree to do this.

 I really hate this kind of elitism. It's a bloody disgrace and horrifically offputting and disheartening  Angry Angry Angry Angry .

*Stands and applauds*  Besides, efeet elitists always miss the point, while trying to attatch to the aestetic of a style, scene, or movement, and wish to appear cool and top of the hill, while "fashionably slumming" which they and their friends all sit about patting each other on the back about.  You really want to find the heart of any scene, or movement, dig past the majority of the wealthy elitists and thier 500 dollar/poud/mark/euro outfits, and scrape down to the streets and the common lower middle and lower class individuals that embody the spirit and feel of it.

A friend once said, "The real goth/punk/whatever is different from the elitists, in that the real ones download the music cause we can't afford it, the elitists download it cause it's "cool"."
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« Reply #86 on: August 04, 2009, 11:09:39 am »


The entire thread subject is the biggest load of balls I've ever read in my life.

I am a goth, I am also a steampunk, along with many other things, I am NOT middle class. I live and grew up on a council estate, was badly educated and only have qualifications for minumum wage jobs. I can still manage to put a reasonably steamy outfit together, I can do the same with goth clothing . You do NOT need money and a university degree to do this.

 I really hate this kind of elitism. It's a bloody disgrace and horrifically offputting and disheartening  Angry Angry Angry Angry .

Indeed, my apologies if I implied these were my views. I was just passing on for debate what a non-goth, non-steampunk friend's view of the subculture was.
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« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2009, 01:28:55 pm »

Well now you do. I was actually a Gutter Goth at one point. (a mixture of Gutter Punk and Goth... or at least that's what my friends called me). I happened to be homeless, and into Punk, Deathrock, Goth, New Wave, Post-Punk, Industrial, etc. I also happened to have a very jovial outlook on life (and still do). I also happened to dress like a crazy circus performer with lots of black, purple, red, green, and white in my outfits (Perkigoth was another term I heard used to describe this style). This was all back in 97/98. Some of my favorite music at that time all fell under dark with a sense of humor (Oingo Boingo, The Bolshoi, Strawberry Switchblade, Shriekback, 45 Grave, Danielle Dax, Nina Hagen, etc).

Actually the whole Deathrock scene is basically Goth-Punk, and at Deathrock events you are very likely to hear classic Punk and Goth music mixed together.


*swoon* Deathrock, Horrorpunk, Hatecore, Powernoise -  makes me happy!


The entire thread subject is the biggest load of balls I've ever read in my life.

I am a goth, I am also a steampunk, along with many other things, I am NOT middle class. I live and grew up on a council estate, was badly educated and only have qualifications for minumum wage jobs. I can still manage to put a reasonably steamy outfit together, I can do the same with goth clothing . You do NOT need money and a university degree to do this.

 I really hate this kind of elitism. It's a bloody disgrace and horrifically offputting and disheartening  Angry Angry Angry Angry .

yes. this.

A good friend of mine once said the only real difference between goths and punks was a preference for whine over beer....

excuse me while i laugh until i pee! this comes into the old adage about goths being depressed/depressing. it's not entirely true as a blanket statement, but i do find that in the goth subculture (as well as in pretty much any for that matter) there are people who take themselves far too seriously.
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Utini420
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« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2009, 03:07:25 pm »

comedy certainly intended, applicability to real life people far less so

A similar comment, made by myself on the last day of DragonCon last year as we walked past the bands (Abney Park and Cruxshadows, as it were) putting their fan tables away and getting read to hit the road -- "The real difference between goths and steampunks is that steampunks can have fun without breaking character."

Had about as much truth to it as the first comment, and the same (lack of) real life applicability, but somehow I figured the sentiment would fit this topic.

I'll also take this time to admit one of my own prejudices, and a source of some personal elitism -- I'm a glue snob.  There, OK, I've said it.  I will snub hot glue in favor of two-part epoxy, use wood glue over Elmers, and gods don't get me started on this or that brand and formula of superglue!  I am an elitist glue snob, and I admit that I have --- no, I admit nothing!  HA ha ha!  You've got to want to change!

(sorry, things were just sounding so serious in here)
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« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2009, 04:09:01 pm »

I'll also take this time to admit one of my own prejudices, and a source of some personal elitism -- I'm a glue snob.  There, OK, I've said it.  I will snub hot glue in favor of two-part epoxy, use wood glue over Elmers, and gods don't get me started on this or that brand and formula of superglue!  I am an elitist glue snob, and I admit that I have --- no, I admit nothing!  HA ha ha!  You've got to want to change!
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