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Author Topic: "For Goths with money"  (Read 5820 times)
neon_suntan
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« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2009, 11:36:05 pm »

a title like Babbage Opus-The Difference Engine That Could In C Minor.
---edit----

*-'Course that may change when I spend $6000 on a coat from Skin Graft and perform with theremin and old bed springs a haunting ballad I like to call Lamentation On The Electrocution of Topsy The Elephant By The Nefarious Thomas Alva Edison Cheesy

Please someone record/make these songs!!!!!!

 Grin
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« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2009, 05:04:35 am »

I really don't like the "goths with money" idea.

I mean, at one point when I was much younger I Identified with the "Goth" culture, but really I've found myself more closely drawn to the rivet culture if any.  In truth, I really don't have the romantic tendencies that characterize goth, nor do I have the tough "edge" of rivet or punk cultures.  What I have is a desire to build and create above all other cultural influences.

And as for money...  Money I have not.  And what money I do have is expended on acquiring the tools I want to build what I may want in the future.  I am notorious at work for rummaging through things like old displays with blinking lights or metal frames for stuff I might be able to use.  I go to the local flea markets looking for junky doo-dadas that I might be able to use.  I never have money to spend, but I want to make stuff.  That's why I have a casting furnace fired with used motor oil, that's why I take the electric motors out of every toy I ever throw away, that's why I recharge my non-rechargable (LIES!!! THEY LIE!!!) batteries. 

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« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2009, 09:08:28 am »

Surely the "Goths with money" only represents one of the many strands of what makes up steampunk? It may also imply the older generation of goths, those folks in their late 20's, 30's, 40's and upwards who may tend towards a more practical look (once that middle age spread sets in and skin-tight jeans become a real problem Smiley), and of course may have more cash.

Hmmm, I'm not sure I like the sound of this. I'm in my 40s and my look is not at all practical. Furthermore, I wish to emphasize that nothing has "spread" just yet.  Tongue


I'm 42 and i've just last month had to go from a 33" waist trouser to a 34", i don't think putting a single inch on round my middle after 26 years or so of being adult sized counts as spreading either, age has nothing to do with size, its eating to many cakes and not exercising enough that makes you fat.
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« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2009, 10:19:24 am »

True enough - I'm still at the 33"/34" waist mark but I am also a damn sight more heavily muscled than I was 20 years ago (or even 10). If I wear skin-tight jeans then my legs look like those on one of those plastic action figures, you can see the muscles move as I walk - and as for carrying keys etc. in pockets then forget it. Smiley Figure hugging shirts are also a problem unless you have a washboard flat stomach.

So its down to straight legged jeans/combats/dress trousers, well fitting shirts (granddad, dress or otherwise) waistcoats, watches, slim fitted jackets (rifle, frock coat etc.), boots (combat, dress or pointy) topped off with cuffs, hats and what ever else suits. It feels better (to me) than the skin tight jeans and hence more practical (I wish I had never used that word now - it hasn't conferred quite the meaning I wanted. *sigh* heyho).
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« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2009, 10:34:29 am »

No worries, my flat bits are all still flat but i was never into skin tight jeans anyway so i guess i dunno about those issues.

Whoever said steampunk is for goths with money is talkin out of their ring anyway, you can't generalise about these things, steampunk is for people who like steamy stuff, and it dont matter if you are goth, punk teddy boy, fat, thin, green, purple, black or white.

just stay steamy guys, and eat as many cakes as ya like. Wink
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« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2009, 07:45:51 pm »

As far as fat goes, many things can make you fat:  eating too much, eating the wrong foods, exercising too little, exercising the wrong way, metabolism problems from various sources (including age, glandular issues, poor diet when you're younger, and plain old bad luck), medication side effects, metabolism slowdown with age/sedentary lifestyle, genetics, and who knows what-all else.

All of these things are endemic in our society:  food is cheap (generally a good thing), but everyone's job these days involves sitting in front of a computer instead of working hard in the fields; entertainment is passive and sedentary; the population is aging; the food that is cheapest and easiest to make is the type most likely to add "fluff" pounds (cheap starch, sugar, trans fats) and no one wants to be the chief cook of the family any more, so it's fast food or box mac and cheese all around; what we think of as a "normal" portion size has been skewed by years of cheap potato products and marketing gimmicks; everyone and his brother/sister is on some kind of medication; some of the additives in our food supply and residues from pesticides and the like have been implicated, as some of them mimic hormones; it takes a g-dd--n PhD in physiology to figure out how to exercise properly in the artificial environment of a gym, which does not mimic the hard work of our forebears - is anyone really surprised that as a culture we have an obesity problem?  But would anyone want to go back to working sunup to sundown for a bit of gruel, just to be skinny?  Partly it's the price we pay for prosperity.  And despite the current economic conditions, we live in a time of unprecedented prosperity.

Either way my point is, not only is there no way to tell for sure why someone's fat, nor is there any guarantee (sorry) that you will never be, unless you're pretty lucky genetically.  (I say this as someone with a moderate overweight issue, but who would probably be seen as skinnier than average on today's streets.  I eat normally, but used to lift weights and am now fairly sedentary - a formula for "going to seed").

Back on topic.  (The "prosperity" thing kind of relates.)  In any time and any place, even ours, there have been some who, temporarily or permanently, have just enough for basic survival and little else, and who have to find the cheapest of every necessity and never purchase more than the necessities.  Currently, these are the people picking out their children's shoes at K-mart (or is it Wal-Mart now?  I lose track) and have effectively no choice as to style or expression; this is the at-least-they're-eating class.  (To discuss the actually-not-eating class which of course exists, would be a huge digression).  These people will find it hard to do anything Steampunk, or in any other way that is a way you choose; they'll have to make do with what they can get.  Not fair, sure, but people have been trying for basically ever not to have a class that's stuck like that, using all sorts of different methods that it's pointless (and against forum rules) to go into here, but the situation is still there, so there you have it.  In this sense, Steampunk is only for those with money.  However, in this sense, Goth is only for those with money too.

So is Steampunk for Goths with a little more money?  I'd say not.  And my main reasoning for why not is, I notice a definite difference in tone and worldview between Goth and Steampunk.  The range of possible monetary outlays actually seems to be about the same.  Goth though has this dark mortuary obsession thing going on; unlike some steampunks who happen to like, say, black clothing, the Goth image uses those items to express a particular worldview.  Steampunk tends to do the negativity thing when it's part of some greater "tragic" vibe, usually for a literary or film drama purpose (there is a "dark Steampunk" possibility, but it isn't a necessity for the genre).  The feel in general though is more uplifting and hopeful.  Goths I've seen investigating Steampunk in fact often appear to be vacationing from the "dark" thing, or at least looking for something to do during the day. Wink It's as if Goth was for the night, whereas Steampunk is all hours, as it were, making the two different.  One can do both, but then one is doing or blending two different things, even if one is sometimes the outgrowth of the other.

Gah.  When multiple topics appear in a thread it makes my posts explode!  Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 07:48:03 pm by Nikola Tesla » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2009, 10:47:28 pm »

your question actually made me laugh...

Im an old goth...(from before "THE CROW" came out)...

Im also a middle class family man...make good money..work with my hands...buy nice things..but Im a TRASH-PICKER and scavanger at heart!!...since Im a "FIX-IT" (what my daughter calls me)...I love to repair or change an items use...its kinda my "video game"...its what I do for fun!!...so steampunking really hits me dead center of what I already do!!...now Im not some goofy guy building weird stuff...Im a goofy guy building STEAMPUNK stuff!!...and I can wear it out and not feel silly!! (mostly)..

I love building and some fantasy...I joined up with a group of blacksmiths from the SCA...but the period stuff seemd restrictive to me..and got into modern 4x4 vehicles...I've always been a grease-monkey since I was old enough to turn a screwdriver..(made my parents CRAZY!!...I took EVERYTHING APART!!...Im 32 and my mom STILL keeps the screwdrivers and tools on the refrigerator and away from little kids hands!!)..

I found out about steampunk from a friend that regularly attends MARCON...and Im all FOR IT!!...it is a great time-period and the flexability really speaks to my notion of "reinactment" and cause-play...im actually kinda mad at myself for not taking the family and going this year because of what I missed!!

Im not a LARP'er...as a matter of fact I really dont care for Vampire kids at all..(and even the older ones)...and hate people who take their cause-play way to serious...its all for fun in my mindset!! dont be too uptight about it!...

every day Im reading more and more...once we're in the new house I already have many "mad-scientist" ideas for projects...anything that lets me be artsy and functional is awsome!!
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« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2009, 05:34:52 pm »

It occurred to me, looking through the pictures thread, that the reason people may equate Goths and Steampunks with money (aside from that we have time to follow a hobby so are clearly not out grafting all day... or that might just mean we don't spend every evening in the pub...) is that we all look very smart and well-dressed and some people may equate this with money. Really it's just dress sense. Were we to put on burberry baseball caps and fake Adidas trousers we might not get confused for folks with money!
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« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2009, 06:03:50 pm »

Were we to put on burberry baseball caps and fake Adidas trousers we might not get confused for folks with money!


I for one would rather die first!!




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« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2009, 08:00:14 pm »

Sgt.Major Thistlewaite I must agree!
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« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2009, 08:18:27 pm »

I kinda think some of this is the flip-side of the recent elitism threads: it isn't actually the case that we're smarter, prettier, richer, and better dressed, than everyone else... but I can see where their ignorant, slovenly ways might give one that impression.
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« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2009, 02:31:14 pm »

well alot of the goths i know who have money earned  it from inheritance and  teh ocasional girl being a stripper. However im middle class and work a 10 hour a day job, but since im not younger and have much mroe to worry about i spend my money wisely.      I definetly dont do the whole black hair and black nail polish and lipstick thing ,,,i really wish peopel would stop assuming that stereotypical image of goth people casue well most of the older goth guys i know dont dress like that  althug most of the younger ones do, and i know tons of goths that involve otehr colors in their ward drobe , now admittidly most of mine is black but well ive foudn at most goodwill stores the occasionbal really nice vest. I jsut dislike that everythng made over here is for shorter people ,,,i'm 6'4" and skinny so i have to shell out the ocasional extra dollars to get a pair of ncie pants that actually fit well or the jacket that the sleeves actualyl go to my wrist so i dont look like the incredible hulk bursting out of a suit.  However none of the slim larger stuff seems to be made in america and the only companys that do custom are in europe Sad  But i digress steampunk is an emerging thing in my area that has come out of victorian goth,,,, i jsut hope it beats out Emo but with Hot Topics constant support of Emo making the old goth genre all but die here ,,,well it scares me   
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« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2009, 06:36:36 pm »

I'd say it's for people with money or time. You need one, but you don't need both.
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« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2009, 09:22:49 pm »

I'd say it's for people with money or time. You need one, but you don't need both.

There’s no faults with that... sums it up quite nicely.   Smiley
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« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2009, 09:57:13 pm »

i believe that in any culture it is not relevant how much money you have, but how wisely you spend it and how ingenuitive you can be.

for example, a steampunk could live quite happily on the dole if they were accustomed to skip/dumpster diving and spending what little money they have on superglue and craft supplies that cannot be liberated from skips. charity shops often put things out in skips that they are unable to resell which can be taken apart and made into other things. or if you are uncomfy just taking things from skips i'm sure you could do a few hours voluntary work in return for being allowed to go through the discarded things.

likewise, i love going to festivals and have been known to go to up to 20 in one summer. i don't have the money for tickets or travel so i offer my services to work there in return for food. surely if you were serious about attending many conventions but had very little funds you could look at volunteering there instead.

i believe that absolutely anything is possible if you put your mind to it, and it is only dependant on the limits of your imagination and not your wallet.

[rant]

yes. this. people piss and moan about how expensive steampunk is. boo hiss. i sew and have found countless things that can either be modified or repurposed and are quite steamy. what's expensive are the things that are mass-marketed as "steampunk." granted, there are lovely, custom-made gadgets and frocks and such that cost more than a quick trip to the mall, but with steampunk more so than with other subcultures (speaking in terms of apparel here) i find that i can easily justify a fifty dollar blouse because i can wear it to work as well as out to functions. my boots are worn to school, to RennFaire, to work, to the tattooist, to the post, to the market. there are vests and trousers that i've purchased to wear on job interviews that are easily (and inexpensively) steamed.

hell, my now seven-year-old is easily steamed with clothing from Target, WalMart, Gymboree, and Salvation Army!

the people whining the most about money are the ones lacking the creativity to do more than spend money on what the rest of the world tells them is or isn't "steampunk"

[/rant]
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« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2009, 06:04:40 pm »


the people whining the most about money are the ones lacking the creativity to do more than spend money on what the rest of the world tells them is or isn't "steampunk"


ya, what she said!
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« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2009, 07:08:23 pm »


the people whining the most about money are the ones lacking the creativity to do more than spend money on what the rest of the world tells them is or isn't "steampunk"


ya, what she said!

if it comes from target/walmart/kmart it's not steampunk.... just kidding...  Grin


Seconded Reni's post, any further discussion or are we ready for a vote...
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« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2009, 07:14:50 pm »

[rant]

yes. this. people piss and moan about how expensive steampunk is. boo hiss. i sew and have found countless things that can either be modified or repurposed and are quite steamy. what's expensive are the things that are mass-marketed as "steampunk." granted, there are lovely, custom-made gadgets and frocks and such that cost more than a quick trip to the mall, but with steampunk more so than with other subcultures (speaking in terms of apparel here) i find that i can easily justify a fifty dollar blouse because i can wear it to work as well as out to functions. my boots are worn to school, to RennFaire, to work, to the tattooist, to the post, to the market. there are vests and trousers that i've purchased to wear on job interviews that are easily (and inexpensively) steamed.

hell, my now seven-year-old is easily steamed with clothing from Target, WalMart, Gymboree, and Salvation Army!

the people whining the most about money are the ones lacking the creativity to do more than spend money on what the rest of the world tells them is or isn't "steampunk"

[/rant]

Yes yes and yes [extra yes for Target love]! It's amazing what one can find/acquire on the cheap if you're willing to look or put in the extra time. Even before I knew what steampunk was, I was a bargain hunter and thrifter and I still apply that thinking now. A few modifications, washes or alterations [whatever it might need] and you have something to fit your purposes without breaking the bank. And sometimes it's already in your closet--just depends on how you look at it.
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« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2009, 09:40:54 pm »

 Shocked wow Shocked ... i don't know what else to say there... thanks for all the support you guys; i was worried that my moment on the soapbox was bound to ruffle someone's feather fascinators.

i design as well as being a consumer. and really, it's just common sense. i wish i could spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on single items but it's not practical. i have to be able to pay my rent and make car payments and do other crazy things like - oh, i don't know - feed my child. with the exception of special-occasion attire (and no, i do not consider conventions and meets as such - i'm talking about things like weddings and paid photo shoots - and not even all of my paid shoots), i cannot bring myself to buy things that i won't put into my day-to-day wardrobe. it just doesn't make sense.

and yes, i love Target. that place is the biggest drain on my credit card, second only to Gymboree and anything with Bumblebee (the robot, not the insect) on it.
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« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2009, 08:09:02 pm »

Goths with money.

Poppycock.

For most of the reasons already stated.

Steampunk has heavy elements of style.

Goth is often identified by its lack thereof.
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« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2009, 08:15:46 pm »

Goth, lack of style? No offence, but are you blind? Even Chavs have a sense of style, it may be a poor one but it's there. Goths are supremely stylish in my books and I have never heard it said otherwise.
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« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2009, 08:24:31 pm »

Let's face it. There's a wide range of styles that have been called Goth . Some people seem to think black fingernail polish is all it takes to label someone "Goth"

Goth stereotypes:
http://www.blackwaterfall.com/viewall.php
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« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2009, 09:48:05 pm »

I went to art school so I was both surrounded by Goths, and participated to some degree. I have had time to think on this issue.

Let me clarify. My statement was more philosophical then visual. Visually speaking you are correct.

Goth is almost a reaction to something. What that something is depends greatly on the individual or group. Because of this, it doesn't really have that many common tenants to be an original style. In other words, while looks vary greatly within the community, very little has changed in the last 30 years of the movement. What has changed is often in darkened parallel to whatever is going on in the culture at large. A perfect case of the more things change, the more they stay the same.

By that very definition, you can take any style you could think of and paint it black, adjust a few things, and wammo - instant Goth. Therefore, because of its reactionary nature, Goth will always be relevant, but very little will have changed otherwise.

If you start to take from it what makes it a reaction, or "anti-style", if you will, then you will find that it doesn't really have that many other elements that make it a cohesive style. For instance, if you tell a group of Goths that they can dress just like they normally do, down to every detail - except that they can't wear black - you would find that most of the people would immediately have their look more closely identified with another style.

Anyway, some people argue that Goth has actually evolved and grown a number of common thread stylistic tenants. They argue that is what Steampunk and Cyberpunk are.

I disagree.

Steampunk is a real style - a real sub-cultural movement - and is separate from Goth.

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« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2009, 10:39:02 pm »

I went to art school so I was both surrounded by Goths, and participated to some degree. I have had time to think on this issue.

Let me clarify. My statement was more philosophical then visual. Visually speaking you are correct.

Goth is almost a reaction to something. What that something is depends greatly on the individual or group. Because of this, it doesn't really have that many common tenants to be an original style. In other words, while looks vary greatly within the community, very little has changed in the last 30 years of the movement. What has changed is often in darkened parallel to whatever is going on in the culture at large. A perfect case of the more things change, the more they stay the same.

By that very definition, you can take any style you could think of and paint it black, adjust a few things, and wammo - instant Goth. Therefore, because of its reactionary nature, Goth will always be relevant, but very little will have changed otherwise.

If you start to take from it what makes it a reaction, or "anti-style", if you will, then you will find that it doesn't really have that many other elements that make it a cohesive style. For instance, if you tell a group of Goths that they can dress just like they normally do, down to every detail - except that they can't wear black - you would find that most of the people would immediately have their look more closely identified with another style.

Anyway, some people argue that Goth has actually evolved and grown a number of common thread stylistic tenants. They argue that is what Steampunk and Cyberpunk are.

I disagree.

Steampunk is a real style - a real sub-cultural movement - and is separate from Goth.




pet peeve - both are movements and technically what you're speaking of is fashion. style is created by designers; fashion is what is worn. the terms are used interchangeably and it bugs me.

the "flaw" (for want of a better term) in your sentiment, in my opinion that is - the way it reads does not seem to allow for people to be more than just steampunk or just goth. i don't feel that the two are mutually exclusive, but i quite like all the variants in between and even outside of the two.

another issue - there actually has been a fair bit of change within gothic fashion in the last fifteen years in which i've been involved in the "scene" alone. if you look at goth fashion from the 1970s through to today, it becomes apparent that not only has there been change there has also been growth and evolution. even though the page is a bit tongue-in-cheek, http://www.blackwaterfall.com/viewall.php is an example of the progression. most of the variations listed there didn't come about until the 1980s and 1990s. to tell the truth, i don't consider all of it "goth"; however, that's the nature of things where people are involved.

you pointed out that if "you can take any style you could think of and paint it black, adjust a few things, and wammo - instant Goth." the same is said about steampunk by those who would refer to it as being for goths with money - i mean, really. you take an outfit, add goggles, a waistcoat, and a pocketwatch and you've pretty much got instant steampunk, right? it's basically the same as what you said about goth.

yes, people will judge goth or chav or scene or indie or steampunk based on appearance, but i don't feel limited by such.

and i'm currently in my second tour of art school as well as having some knowledge in historical and contemporary dress. from day to day (and i have a thread to this effect somewhere on the boards), i don't know that i look like any one specific group. and i quite like it that way.

/rant
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« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2009, 10:42:48 pm »


pet peeve - both are movements and technically what you're speaking of is fashion. style is created by designers; fashion is what is worn. the terms are used interchangeably and it bugs me.


Interesting. I would say fashion was created by designers and the 'norm' of society. Style to me is a personal way of dressing/behaving.
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