Manifesto; or why dosnt steampunk work

[Sir Nikolas Vendigroth]

Well, I'm not too great with foreign languages... 

But I believe in the USA, 'the bomb' means 'Jolly good'.

[Tanuki]

Indeed. "A Bomb" means failure, "The Bomb" means awesomeness.

[TimeTinker]

OK I understand the two walmart ends as an absolute then but I still can't see the two ends of the "political spectrum" that you are referring to.  I thought Utini and Wykes weren't actually saying anything political and certainly weren't from opposite ends of a spectrum and  you can't make anything political out of the clangers and wombles.  Sorry but where are the two ends of the political spectrum that you find so amusing?   Let us in on the joke please.

[Utini420]

Ya, me too. 
Are you referring to the general outlooks the two of us tend of show, beyond just this thread?  'Cause I thought we were saying pretty similar things.

[Tanuki]

I was actually referring to the difference between your politics and mine.

[J. A. Wykes]

Yeah, yeah. I was agreeing with Utini, and Tanuki was remarking upon the beauty of the fact that we can all be really close in our love for steampunk, and yet really far away in our politics. (Though, as I mentioned to Tanuki, I have a feeling that we may be pretty close politically and differ economically.)

But Tanuki was saying that she was on the opposite end of the spectrum - "walmartisthebombyoism", supporting large corporations like Wal-Mart - from me and Utini, who represent "f**kwalmartism", obviously opposing them.

Everyone clear?

All this to merely agree with what I believe is Tinkergirl's stance, which is that lots of people of different nationalities, political creeds, religions, walks of life, worldviews and so forth can have a place where we just move around those incendiary issues without pretending they don't exist and just have fun together. My opinion is that we can probably reconcile our differences and work together to discover truth more effectively if we're all friends to begin with. But this place is just for fun.

This thread and the elitism thread (and a few others, I'm sure) are here, in my opinion, to identify the various elephants in the room and establish a sense of wonder at the fact that, in spite of them, we can all find common ground, while not starting a fight.

Anyone wanna talk politics, PM me. I don't think you can get a clear picture of my overarching political theory by just hearing how I feel about Wal-Mart and the environment, and I hate being pigeonholed. And, if anyone wants to try to change my mind about either of those issues, I'm willing to listen. But, as the forum mods might say, this is not the place.

[TimeTinker]

We were trying very hard not to talk politics J A. The query was not about views on walmart or anything remotely like.  It is just that Tanuki's line didn't actually make sense to me and I wanted to show him the respect of actually trying to understand his point. (Remember both walmartisms were actually the same to a Brit reader)

I must admit that the first response he made to the question actually confused me even more since I didn't follow it one bit.

To make an explanation using a shared frame of reference it is necessary to first have that shared frame of reference.  The comment seemed to be a response to some distinctly British cultural references that I was sure you guys would not be getting so I wanted to be clear that the issue wasn't sitting there or hoped that Capt D and myself could explain as required.

This was about communication not politics.

The US - a guy in vest and pants is well dressed.
The UK - a guy in vest and pants has gone out in his underwear

 

[Miss Emilly Ladybird]

I would just like to reassure everyone that my amazing devices are genuine working models -

Yes, the phantasmagoricallibration device will genuinely create a gate to the world of faerie and the Harker Mortalometer was actually used by Mina Harker to discover vampires...It can do the same for you too....

And I bartered and explored for them them myself (well Mr Woppit helped a bit)
Just in case you were wondering 

[Tanuki]

That would be "her" and "she", Tinker.

Of course, based upon my occupation and, er...special mode of attire, such confusion may be easily forgiven.

[Violet Rose]

Yeah! Cultural references to stuff neither I nor anyone else who grew up on this side of the pond know about!

and now you are a little better edumacated - such is the wonder of this forum.

[J. A. Wykes]

That it is, Ms. Rose, that it is.

Oh, and my comments after the "Everyone clear?" weren't directed at you, Mr. TimeTinker, or anyone else who has been part of the conversation of late. It was for the benefit of any newcomers/mods who might pop in order to clarify that we hadn't actually been talking over the BAD subject. As well as to share my feelings that it's important to have these discussions that are semi-controversial with anyone who will listen.

[TimeTinker]

Well tanuki, you have my apologies ma'am.

(That's why I can't understand HER - nothing to do with the Atlantic divide  )

And I now understand that you were making a general point J A rather than directly participating in the question/answer.

Gottit!

(Still not sure what tanuki's comment actually meant though )

[J. A. Wykes]

I believe she was assuming from my stances on Wal-Mart and the environment that I was a proponent of the mainstream American Left (which I'm not), which would stand a good deal in opposition to her own political position. 'Twas all based on an assumption (and a fairly reasonable one, at that) that turned out to be wrong. Which is why, as you observed, sir, one cannot use a person's relative green-ness to determine political alignment.

[TimeTinker]

Thank you very much for indulging a foreigner by explaining your culture.

[neon_suntan]

The publishers and some contributors to, Steampunk Magazine interpret SP from a very political, radical perspective.

[Phineas Lamar Alexander]

I must unfortunately weigh in on this topic...

There are only two things in this world that I can not abide...

People who feel an overt need to criticize the things they don't understand IE cultural differences,
And the Parisians...

[The Kernel]

I must unfortunately weigh in on this topic...

There are only two things in this world that I can not abide...

People who feel an overt need to criticize the things they don't understand IE cultural differences,
And the Parisians...

That's the same thing isn't it.

The only thing I will not tolerate is intolerance
(I don't have a problem with the Dutch - cookies for whoever works out the root of that comment)

[Phineas Lamar Alexander]

Caught that did you? Clever Chap!

[Capt. Dirigible]

As do we, and here it's also called the Green Party. We also have a less well-known, but still existent, National Socialist Green Party - and their flag is a Nazi flag in green instead of red

Really!!?? 'Eco-Nazis'!! I've heard it all now!

[HAC]

MODERATOR HAT ON!
Ok.. the last few posts are taking this into teh murky realm of politics..
I'm deleteing them, and if it keeps up this trhead will be locked with presjudice..
Had a few too many complaints on this..
MODERATOR HAT OFF!

Cheers
Harold

[Utini420]

Wow, really?
I'm always curious about the behind-the-curtain stuff, and this intersects with my morbid fascination for all the things people find offensive, often when I'm standing next to them with a blank look asking, "What?"

Seriously, people were complaining?  About this?  Seriously?

They need thicker skin.  Yes, rules are rules and it seems some invisible line was crossed, but man.  I envy the carefree life one must lead for forum post to count as "problems."



On the old topic, which I missed a good bit of, glad we all got on page.  I should also like to clarify my own position a bit: while a good portion of my distaste for big companies is political (we finally get the world out from under the dictatorships, and people want to pay to go back?) a lot of it is just about options as a consumer.  Basically, I find WalMart and shops like it quite boring.  Take something simple, like DVDs as a for instance.  Time was not too long ago when I had at least 9 places to buy DVDs within a mile of my office (WalMart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Barns n Nobles, Replay, Coconuts, Sun Coast, Gamesomethingorother, probably some others).  This gives me a pretty decent selection.  A few years later, most of those are gone and its just WalMart, Best Buy, and Barns n Nobles.  In short, forget about the quirky stuff, its mainstream or not at all.

Its about selection, basically.  Even the political side of it could be seen as a matter of selection and quality of options.

[Nikola Tesla]

Might I point out that in the case of the "political spectrum" it is easy to become confused simply because a lot of our modern issues (especially green-related ones) arose after the "political spectrum" was invented?

Hence one decade an issue can be one side of the spectrum's baby, the next decade it might be the other's.  Or it might be different in different parts of the world.  Confusion reigns!

Also, for folks across the water, the Wal-Mart thing is pretty complicated; they had a few controversies that related to labor practices and to where they got their merchandise, leading to some criticism, some defense.  Political sides got involved, and lawsuits were discharged.  The only Wal-Mart issue though that really relates to steampunk out of this is the one in Utini's last post:

...Basically, I find WalMart and shops like it quite boring.  Take something simple, like DVDs as a for instance.  Time was not too long ago when I had at least 9 places to buy DVDs within a mile of my office (WalMart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Barns n Nobles, Replay, Coconuts, Sun Coast, Gamesomethingorother, probably some others).  This gives me a pretty decent selection.  A few years later, most of those are gone and its just WalMart, Best Buy, and Barns n Nobles.  In short, forget about the quirky stuff, its mainstream or not at all.

That isn't so much of a political question (or perhaps a recession-based one) as it is one of how many options are available to the average producer/consumer.  For those doing "oddball" stuff like steampunk, it can be significant indeed.  It's a little like the "biodiversity" thing; all green politics aside, it's just nicer to have many options when it comes to varieties of tomatoes/coffee/potatoes/grains &c than to have only one or two.  In our global/internet age, it shouldn't be that hard.  But for me that's part of what steampunk is about: supporting the "oddball" option, doing it yourself when (and sometimes even if) a commercial option is available, making many variants available, &c.

[Tanuki]

Ah, but in the modern age of internet shopping, we've no real need for local shops all over everywhere, do we? A single shop, situated anywhere in the world, may be sufficient to any procurement job. What need are 30 second-hand shops in your area, each containing a different selection, when all such items can be put on eBay by their owner directly? Where is the use of an archaic clothing shop in every city, each of them struggling to make ends meet, and thus necessitating higher prices, when a single store can exist to serve all people's anachronistwear needs, and without even the required cost of a storefront?

I think perhaps even this aspect is a political question, given that even when the same ends are sought by all parties, different means can be seen as preferable to those ends. And is not that the very essence of politics?

[Violet Rose]

Ah, but in the modern age of internet shopping, we've no real need for local shops all over everywhere, do we? A single shop, situated anywhere in the world, may be sufficient to any procurement job. What need are 30 second-hand shops in your area, each containing a different selection, when all such items can be put on eBay by their owner directly? Where is the use of an archaic clothing shop in every city, each of them struggling to make ends meet, and thus necessitating higher prices, when a single store can exist to serve all people's anachronistwear needs, and without even the required cost of a storefront?

I think perhaps even this aspect is a political question, given that even when the same ends are sought by all parties, different means can be seen as preferable to those ends. And is not that the very essence of politics?

For one thing real life shopping is alway preferable to internet shopping so far as clothes go - buying over the net you have no real idea of the material - its weight and feel - whether the garment will fit you or suit your shape - and that is quite apart from the risk of the supplier not coming up with the goods and the extra charge of postage and packing.
By having one centralised store you are also taking away the livelyhood of any number of small entrepreneurs and contributing towards the decline of a neighbourhood - nothing more slummy looking in an area than boarded up shopfronts.
So I would say that we need local shops far more than we need internet shopping

[Nikola Tesla]

So I would say that we need local shops far more than we need internet shopping

I'd agree there. I use internet shopping as kind of the last resort.  I don't often like to shop - if by "shop" you mean that sort of grazing where you don't have anything in particular you need and you just go spend money at random and hoard stuff.  I don't much understand that.  But when there's something in particular I want, I like to actually look at the physical item I will be getting, and obviously the more the item costs the more this is true.

(Yes, I admit this rather runs afoul of my "delight" at seeing the Internet destroy local real estate agents...I will just have to get over that, at some point).

Or, I like the "in between" thing, where you look at stuff to see if it inspires projects.  Or when you want a general thing, like "something new to read in X area", or "the right kind of shirt for this outfit", and you explore to see what will fit that need.  For both of these things, visiting a local shop is far more satisfying than the Internet variety.  I tend to use the Internet when I know exactly what I will be getting for exactly how much money, to fill some practical need I want out of my hair as soon as possible.

This would be why all my work clothes look alike.