Are we leaving ourselves open to accusations of Elitism?

[Skrae]

In actuality, the only times I've seen hints of elitism are in the few discussions in which it's discussed what Steampunk is, or wherever elitism is mentioned.  Remember, hints of it, not full blown elitism.  I think the members of this community do a splendid job at trying not to be an elitist, and only occasionally do I see it slip through the filter, and only in minute amounts.

Everyone has been extremely open, and I've not seen any quick to judge.  Occasionally I have loathings about what is commonly considered steampunk (such as placing gears here and there, and the smashing of clocks for said gears), but it's not something I can pass judgment on which any justification.  So many people say it's about making stuff, but it doesn't have to be.  I could pass judgment on those who buy their accessories without attempting to make them, but writers could pass the same judgment on me for buying books rather than writing them.

I think everyone should at least ATTEMPT to make one thing, but it is in no way necessary.  If I thought those who buy their items were posers, I'd be a hypocrite for accepting commissions to make things for friends.

I do not think we are intentionally elitist, but I do believe it occasionally slips through our individual filters from time to time.

[TimeTinker]

The "Hints of Elitism" appear when someone mentions a major commercial enterprise trying to stock steampunk clothes or accessories.  Instantly we start hearing about wannabes and the comparison to Mall Goths.  Whilst there is little overt elitism there is always a vociferous  reaction to anything which hints that Steampunk may be becoming "mainstream".  These reactions have caused some of our newer and less confident associates to question themselves and their being here.

The regularly appearing "what is steampunk" type debates  are essential for newcomers to explore what they want from the scene. That is why when some people jump in with "why are we discussing this again we talked about this" .... it is off putting and inherently elitist because it reinforces to people that they are newcomers. These responses also often include posts which put down non-makers.  We have an awful lot of non-makers here, established and newbies. Posts which make them feel somehow less of a "suitable candidate" are unhelpful and unfriendly. The negative response to these sorts of topics re-emerging is the main obvious expression of elitism here.  There is an easy way for people not to get annoyed with these threads - don't bother reading them or posting and let newcomers use them to find their way into the community.  If people want to be helpful, welcoming and act as mentors for newcomers then this sort of "exploratory" thread is the place to do it but do it kindly and constructively.

OK I am a trained psychologist and I may see things in a more analytical way but that does not mean these things aren't there. The elitism is not open. It is not common to all. Corporately we are all keen to say we don't want it.  It does however bubble away under the surface and from time to time pops up with a little blast of spleen.

So if you have ever posted:
"Why are we talking about this again, we already covered this"
"That outfit/object/accessory/book/film/music" isn't steampunk, how can you think it is?"
"Real steampunks make everything for themselves etc"
"I don't want young kids becoming steampunks just to pose"
"Alchemy/Hot Topic, I don't want them mass producing steampunk"
Then you could for that moment be described as elitist. (I include myself in this category)

Don't get me wrong. We all have opinions and views.  We have a right to express those opinions and views.  The expression of them is not elitism.  It is elitism when we question the rights of other people to find their own way in steampunk be it there own form of expression or the forum to discuss that expression.

These small acts of elitism may not worry some people.  Trust me they do worry some of the newcomers here.  Steamblast Mary when raising this topic was asking "are we leaving ourselves open to accusations of Elitism".  We are not as a community trying to be elitist.  We don't like the idea of being elitist. For the most part we strive to be welcoming and all encompassing.  We are however "leaving ourselves open to accusations of Elitism". It's a shame but it is undisputable. You may not like it or care to accept it but we could be accused of it just from the examples I have cited above.

Perhaps we could let this thread lie for a while and just get on with the day to day ups and downs of these August Halls.  Wait and see though how things happen and you will see a recurrence of the things I have mentioned.  Most likely it will be from someone who hasn't read or participated in this thread.  You see the problem is the people who are most elitist often don't actually realise they are doing it.  Then again if they are truly elitist they don't actually care and this post has been frequented by people who do care and I personally would like to applaud each and every person who has posted on this debate.

Tinker

[MissTwist]

The real wannabees are the non-contributors, those who will not give of their talent or time, not make any effort to interact or make friends

No... no... no..no no no no no...

Those are just people who like the Steampunk media. No one has an obligation to contribute to the scene. They aren't wannabes, they are fans.

Thank you but not necessarily even that. I am, as I've mentioned before, a Diesel not a Steamer, but quite frankly my skills are applicable across most culture, mainstream and sub.  For the most part I don't share my skills around and it's isn't because I'm just a fan or because I'm unwilling to.

I work a 30 hour week, on top of that I organise classes for a small arts community (as in help organise the diary of what schools when etc) and am working on a large project as a member of said community, I have my own class for dance once a week, do  life drawing for 3 hours once a week, have a friend/boyfriend/housemate/something that I need to spend time with and recently picked up a new website to set up and manage...

On top of that I try to find time for my own arts.

Where do I add in teaching in person or writing tutorials. I'd be happy to be in the middle of things helping out at every turn if I could but one picks ones priorities. Mine is not to teach people. Wuite frankly, if I'm honest, I'm an awful teacher. My priorities also are not with teh Steam or Diesel communities. They are with my local arts and pagan communities. I love the steam/diesel comms. They're awesome and i hope in future I DO actually have more time for them, but why is not having time to share my skills aroun suddenly delegate me to the back seat?

This is of course rhetorically speaking of course, I know people here do not generally feel this way, but so many people are made to feel unwelcome at general events or just generally feel uncomfortable in teh community just because they really don't have time to spare.

[Violet Rose]

True. I don't exactly wear my suit on my off-time for fun, but there have been times where I've gone out straight after work and still had on the suit costume. So anyone glimpsing me for the first time would naturally think "BORING". Little do they know.

Not to get off topic, but I enjoy the social experiment of seeing the totally different treatment I get when I go to the mall or shops in my suit vs. in my "real" clothes. For some reason, salespeople seem to assume that the 40-something lady in the Talbots suit has money, but the 40-something lady with the tattoos and boots and flowy skirt is broke. (Which also seems to be evidence that many people have NO concept of how expensive tattoos are.)

Maybe they do and that is why they assume you are broke 

[leeps]

True. I don't exactly wear my suit on my off-time for fun, but there have been times where I've gone out straight after work and still had on the suit costume. So anyone glimpsing me for the first time would naturally think "BORING". Little do they know.

Not to get off topic, but I enjoy the social experiment of seeing the totally different treatment I get when I go to the mall or shops in my suit vs. in my "real" clothes. For some reason, salespeople seem to assume that the 40-something lady in the Talbots suit has money, but the 40-something lady with the tattoos and boots and flowy skirt is broke. (Which also seems to be evidence that many people have NO concept of how expensive tattoos are.)

Maybe they do and that is why they assume you are broke 

Then they would be correct!

[Nikola Tesla]

<snip>
That is why when some people jump in with "why are we discussing this again we talked about this" .... it is off putting and inherently elitist because it reinforces to people that they are newcomers.
<snip>

Interesting point; myself, I hadn't really thought about this.  When I see a topic (new or recycled) that I don't feel like discussing at some given point, I tend to just not post in it...there being plenty of topics to choose from on a board such as this one, and I have to admit I simply do not have time to read them all (which is fine by me, I'd rather have too many topics than run out).  However, it never occurred to me how a new thread on an old topic might be an important part of welcoming newcomers.  I suppose this is especially true when it is the newcomer him/herself who initiates the new thread on the old topic.

<snip>
OK I am a trained psychologist and I may see things in a more analytical way but that does not mean these things aren't there.
<snip>

That's intriguing; I have some background in anthropology and I have often found it serves me in the same way.

[Josh of Vernian Process]

Yes except that almost every relevant thread on the "What is Steampunk" subject is already stickied right at the very top of this sub-forum. You would have to be incredibly unperceptive not to see that.

[Matthias Gladstone]

Yes except that almost every relevant thread on the "What is Steampunk" subject is already stickied right at the very top of this sub-forum. You would have to be incredibly unperceptive not to see that.

Thats true - but I think the point is the new threads allow new members to contribute their own ideas of what steampunk is, which is invaluable in helping them feel part of the community. Everyone has their own feelings on the matter, and it allows them to shape them a little and put them forwards to other people.
-Matt

[TimeTinker]

Precisely Matt.

It is also when someone posts a thread with a different title other than "what is steampunk" and someone leaps in with "this is what is steampunk, we've already done this to death..."   The point is that people are sometimes not self enlightened enough or familiar enough with this environment to realise that is what they are posting.

When people join a forum they don't read through all of the thousands of posts that have already been made. Heck half of the time disagreements appear because someone comments on a post and have not even read the thread they are commenting on carefully.

Stickied posts are all well and good but are not an excuse to come down on people for wanting to explore why they are here. How many of them miss the introduce yourself thread and post a new one?

For some people this may even be their first experience of a public forum too. 

Remember I am not saying that we are deliberately being elitist but that we can appear so to newcomers and outsiders and that we are "leaving ourselves open to accusations of elitism". 

The bottom line is this thread is about perceptions newcomers have of us and it is not really about how we perceive them.

[MissTwist]

Erm, *hangs head* very sorry about the ranty rant. It says what I meant to say so I'll levae it up but I had not meant it to be my vent for current fustrations. So again sorry for ranting.

[FearlessVampireKillers]

I work pretty hard to promote steampunk and offer things which members of this community want to get involved in and enjoy.  I have always striven to be inclusive and encouraging.

Do you know why?

Because this is a creative community.  It is creative in many ways however. Some people take up scissors, needle and thread, some work with leather, some metal, some wood. Some craft sound, some pictures and some craft words. Some work with ideas and people.  The common denominators are imagination and application.  Personally I hate repaints on plastic toys but I respect that that is how some of our friends and colleagues choose to express themselves.

Yes we suffer from elitism and the occasional "more of a real steampunk than thou" attitude.  Some people will always react like that but the reason is often a natural urge to protect something that they feel is precious and worthwhile.  Do not castigate people for being protective of what we have - their motivation is often genuine and for the right reasons.  They need to be reassured that what they love will not be damaged or destroyed by an influx of newbies. It is important however that we stand up and make it clear that it is not necessary and it is unwelcome however since that is the same sort of bigotry as we get in race and religious hatred.

How to respond - be open and be welcoming. Encourage people into the "scene" but then lead by example as to what the "scene" really is. Show people what it truly means to be a steampunk, that it means creativity.  If they don't want to get involved in their own unique way, well they will vote with their feet and move on to the next thing.  We will still be here doing our own thing and enjoying it.

Everyone here has been welcomed by the community.  

Everyone who discovers the community from this point on deserves the same welcome.

Instead of despising them we should be encouraging and helping them to contribute.  We might find dozens of wannabes that move on but we might also find new, skilled and creative friends.

This entire thing in fantastic Time Tinker. You have an amazing insight into the community spirit and a moral compass that would be envied by mother Teresa.

Look forward to meeting you!

Kier
FVK
xxx

[Utini420]

The point is that people are sometimes not self enlightened enough or familiar enough with this environment to realise that is what they are posting.

When people join a forum they don't read through all of the thousands of posts that have already been made. Heck half of the time disagreements appear because someone comments on a post and have not even read the thread they are commenting on carefully.

Sorry, just a pet peeve, totally unrelated to steampunk.  I'm just tired of people treating the internet like its some new thing with strange, exotic customs.  Let the kids read a bit, or endure the flack from folks who's seen it all before. 

Rant hidden from those who'd rather not bother:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not that this is in any way unique to steampunk, but its two thousand friggin' nine.  At what point do we ever get to stop holding every noob's hand like this is the first forum they've ever seen?  I'm not talking about new to steampunk, but the molly-coddling of new users.  Let me put it another way -- if I roll into the library in your town and start shouting about, "Hay, y'all got a reference section?" I'm not going to get a slow, patient explanation of what they like to call a, "library voice," and I'm not likely to get directions to the encyclopedias, I'm going to get rightfully told to shut my flappin' mouth.  This is as it should be, for libraries have been around a while and most folks seems to agree that understanding the appropriate volume level is a reasonable expectation to place on new customers.

[TimeTinker]

Sorry but I thought we treated people politely here. Why should they have to "endure the flack" (sic)?

If you shouted out in a library in the UK the librarian would walk over to you, and say "could you be quiet please, people are trying to read." In a worst case scenario you would also get "or I will have to ask you to leave."

What is wrong with replying to someone's posts with a bit of consideration in how we answer them?  It is nothing whatsoever to do with the internet, finding your way or anything like that. Nor is it about mollycoddling. It's about being a decent human being.

I would hate to think that this is an Atlantic Divide issue.

Does it hurt or cost anything to respond to someone positively but constructively rather than reacting negatively and aggressively?

However if "the way of things" is explained and then ignored then you come down on them hard.

Show respect, demand respect.  Firm but fair. (These are the codes of the British Army)

Harm no-one unless they strive to harm you. (This is my personal ethical code)

What's wrong with them?

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

No Sir, Major, this is not an Atlantic Divide issue, as I feel precisely as you do.
Politeness and respect are values held dear regardless of location, or at least they should be.
Thank you, Sir, for your insights.
Personally, I do not mind repeating a few things for those new to the culture anymore than I mind holding a child's hand when crossing the street.
Kindness and a gentle spirit go a long way towards making people feel welcome..here and everywhere.

Thistlewaite

[Utini420]

OK, I think that came off a bit harsher than I meant.  The expression pet peeves often does; I gotta learn to just shut up.

I was not saying that browbeating new folks is a good thing to be commended, or that being rude is good behavior.  That last bit didn't even make sense to type.  

There may be some difference of opinion on what counts as rude or considerate -- personally I don't find it rude to reply to a common question with, "check the sticky," "search for XXX," or similar.  Your comments, TimeTinker, seemed targeted at folks doing just that, though I realize now that you were probably speaking to harsher comments which I would also probably find rude.  

What is wrong with replying to someone's posts with a bit of consideration in how we answer them?

Nothing, nothing at all.  In no way was I advocating disrespect of, well, anyone.  BUT, and this is the rub of the whole thing, I DO find one of the very behaviors you defended to be rude -- the folks who will post in a thread without reading it, open duplicate threads because they couldn't be bothered to check page 2, and the like.  That's like coming into a room for the last line of a joke and then demanding it be explained.  Again, I'm not saying we should hunt people like this down, but if one might happen to toss a jab their way I'd hardly call that despicable.  When I said they should have to endure the flack, that's the sort of thing I meant: while new folks shouldn't be insulted or belittled just for being new, particularly in regards to the quirks of steampunk culture, they also have no right to expect spoon feeding -- a noble but hardly compulsory pursuit for those who engage in it.

I hate feeling defensive and I realize I put my foot in my mouth.  I would like to thank you gentlemen, both of whom I've come to know and respect to the extent one can over a forum alone, for calling me out on being a jackass.  I need reminders like that sometimes.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

Tut, tut, Utini, don't be too hard on yourself, old sport. You were not so harsh as all that. I say, I quite enjoy your input here, and read all of your posts with genuine interest.
Your response, by the way, shows you to be a true gentleman, should there be any doubt.

Your friend,
Thistlewaite

[neon_suntan]

The only thing which makes us even slightly open to accusations of elitism is that 99% of folks I've mentioned steampunk have either never heard of it or they hear

"I'm really into steampump"

and get a very worried look in their eyes, except for folk at fetish nights who seem mildly intrigued 

I've found this forum to be the best I've ever joined, in terms of decorum, content and self-governance, I reminded of Steammaster when he put the same question on this and two other forums, only to be stunned by the depth of idiocy and unpleasantness on the non-SP messageboards, I think he said something about how he'd forgotten how moronic people were outside of Brass Goggles.

Nevertheless the vast size of the site, could be daunting to someone who's dipping their toe in the water, so-to-speak, certainly a friend and member of BG has said she never knows where to start whenever she logs on.

And as a final note - the civility of the previous posts shows what the site is all about.

[Hyren von Henry]

I'm a wannabe, it says so on my card.

To be honest, everyone is a "wannabe", because we all "want to be" a bit steampunky now and then

Plus, who is the grand high arbiter who decides "steampunkness"? I call it if there isn't already one.

[neon_suntan]

Plus, who is the grand high arbiter who decides "steampunkness"? I call it if there isn't already one.

I the office of Grand Poo-Bah Vizier of What-siand-what-isn't-steampunk also includes a REALLy big hat... or so I've heard



 

[Zer0]

There are all types in every community. Elitests, slackers, wanabees, whatever. In being part of the community you find your own way. If people want to be elitest let them be.. newcomers who find it off putting will find a way to get in with the people they want to identify with. I think the very fact that there are these factions brings a certain validtion to the group as having a normal fanbase. Lableing is fine but don't be suprised if someone suprises you and jumps a catagory making you look like a fool for jumping the gun.

[Josh of Vernian Process]

I really can't blame those that have been fans of Steampunk for a long time, for being a bit defensive of the way it is portrayed, or getting peeved at misconceptions new blood bring with them about the genre in general. I wouldn't call that elitist, I would call that passionate.

Of course if these same people treat new members like jerks, than yeah. They are just being dicks and are pretty elitist. But I often jump on a post if someone says something I find misinformed. I try not to be rude about it, but Steampunk is something I hold very dear. It is something I've had to myself my whole life, and until recently hardly anyone ever cared or got it that I knew.

[Capt. Dirigible]

As a newbie to the forum myself and only really aware the the whole 'steampunk' scene/community for the last year or so, I find this forum an oasis in a desert of banality. The amount of rudeness..sneering..insults...ignorance..petty squabbling...illiteracy and assorted  w*nkers who populate this world wide web never fails to amaze and depress me in equal measures. When I first came across BG I read through quite a few posts in a number of threads (before joining I mean)to get the feel of the place and was so impressed with the level of intelligent, polite, witty, informative, creative, enthusiatic, literate posts and topics. It  was a breath of fresh air. I didn't come across a single post that said "STFU YOU 'TARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!!
Within  about three hours of reading through old posts and viewing the photographs I knew I had found a home. 'These people will guide me', I said to myself..'I can learn great things from these people'.

I joined and I've been  on here for several hours everyday for the last three weeks now. There are still hundreds of posts in dozens of threads I haven't even looked at yet...(this forum is like Dr Who's Tardis...it's a lot bigger inside!!) And maybe one day I'll get around to reading them all. When starting out on other forums when I'm reading through old posts and I have something I'd like to post in response to what someone has said and then relaise that it was posted two years earlier and there's another 100 pages to the latest post, I wonder 'Is it worth posting? The whole thing I'm about to post could be thoroughly coverd somewhere in those 100 pages and some one will reply shooting me down in flames for  repeating something already covered.
I could never see that happening on here.
Politeness, civility, good humour and friendliness seem to be the order of the day here and I for one applaud everyone one of you for restoring an old man's faith in the internet!

[Hyren von Henry]

Thats because the hooting insults are my job, and I've been away for a bit. so don't worry

[OswaldBastable]

As a newbie to the forum myself and only really aware the the whole 'steampunk' scene/community for the last year or so, I find this forum an oasis in a desert of banality. The amount of rudeness..sneering..insults...ignorance..petty squabbling...illiteracy and assorted  w*nkers who populate this world wide web never fails to amaze and depress me in equal measures. When I first came across BG I read through quite a few posts in a number of threads (before joining I mean)to get the feel of the place and was so impressed with the level of intelligent, polite, witty, informative, creative, enthusiatic, literate posts and topics. It  was a breath of fresh air. I didn't come across a single post that said "STFU YOU 'TARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!!
Within  about three hours of reading through old posts and viewing the photographs I knew I had found a home. 'These people will guide me', I said to myself..'I can learn great things from these people'.

I joined and I've been  on here for several hours everyday for the last three weeks now. There are still hundreds of posts in dozens of threads I haven't even looked at yet...(this forum is like Dr Who's Tardis...it's a lot bigger inside!!) And maybe one day I'll get around to reading them all. When starting out on other forums when I'm reading through old posts and I have something I'd like to post in response to what someone has said and then relaise that it was posted two years earlier and there's another 100 pages to the latest post, I wonder 'Is it worth posting? The whole thing I'm about to post could be thoroughly coverd somewhere in those 100 pages and some one will reply shooting me down in flames for  repeating something already covered.
I could never see that happening on here.
Politeness, civility, good humour and friendliness seem to be the order of the day here and I for one applaud everyone one of you for restoring an old man's faith in the internet!

an excellent post sir and i agree wholeheartidly with everything you said; like yourself, though ive been a fan of the ideas of SP for many years i've only been really aware of the 'scene' so to speak for about a year and this site is a veritable feast of information, ideas, encouragement and good manners

[dman762000]

I personally do not believe in ism's. racism, sexism, elietism, whatever other type of ism a person can come up with. Why harbor such hatred for someone you don't really know based on some prejudiced belief. Everyone has their own important part to add to the whole. I happily accept anyone who comes along with an interest. Whether they purchased their gear form a store or made it themselves. Everyone has an important part to play.