Are we leaving ourselves open to accusations of Elitism?

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

Dman, do you live near me? (Southwest Virginia.) I believe there is a cult in my vicinity that thinks Larry the Cable Guy is God. (Git 'R Done! ) They wear hats with that mantra emblazoned on them.

[dman762000]

Sgt. Major, sir I live in the great state of Arkansas, and I believe that cult has either started or spread to here. Those "people" are everywhere.

[Agamemnon Magillicutty]

The problem with that slogan, is that it isn't clearly established exactly what they wish to accomplish, only that they desire to accomplish it.

[Capt. Dirigible]

I suppose I could be classed as a 'newbie' (even at the age of 50). Although I've been aware of the term 'Steampunk' and what it meant for about 10 years  it was only in the past 18 months or so that I discovered there was a whole community of  people who were really 'into' it.  And over the past couple of months I've really embraced (as much as I can) the SP 'scene'. I say 'scene' as opposed to 'SP way of life/ethic' because I do not  live in a house filled with  restored/replica Victorian brass doo-dads...I'm not an engineer or scientist or have an understanding of the workings of a steam engine and Tesla coils...and I don't talk like a Victorian gentleman in real life. Is this a crime? Am I breaking some unwritten law of  Steampunk?

For the past 15 years I've been an active member of a Vampyre Group (we're not blood drinkers..just fans of the genre) which involves a fair amount of dressing up in fancy/Goth/period outfits and socialising with like minded people. However the group held a themed party last year (Steampunk Slayers Vs CyberVamps) and  loads of SP afficianados turned up. I was agog at their amazing outfits and accessories...the creativity and inventiveness was astonishing. I already had a fair amount of period/Victorian clothing and I started to take an interest in all things SP.

I am artistic (I could call myself a professional cartoonist as I have had work published and been paid for it..but it's not how I make my living) and I do caricatures..neither of which seem to fit into the SP 'creativity' fields. I've started to supplement my existing wardrobe of period/Victorian clothing with extra items found in second hand stores and the Internet but have no skills at all in the making of garments. I've tried my hand at  'modding' a NERF type gun and I am pleased with the way it turned out but would really like to have a crack at building something from scratch..however, my soldering/welding skills are non-existant and I have no work area as such or access to the appropriate tools. I've even made myself a monoggle..ok it's leatherette mounted on plastic but it looks pretty good for a first attempt. I do my best with what I have.

As a kid I loved watching films like 20,000 Leagues Under Sea..The First Men In The Moon and The Time Machine..in fact I still do. Today I really like Hellboy 1 & 2, Sky Captain and The World Of Tomorrow, Steamboy..But my tastes are not limited to just SP themed films.

My partner and I are booked for the whole Asylum weekend and are really looking forward to it. We're sure..in fact we KNOW...that there will be quite a few of our friends from the vampire scene in attendance in their steam punk outfits. We will also be attending the White Mischief tent at Paradise Gardens, Victoria Park this weekend. I find the whole SP thing  fun, new, exciting, creative, informative and educational and the people I've met (both in the flesh and on here) are intelligent, sociable and very nice.

Everyone has to start somewhere...

So..am I a 'wannabe'?
I don't think I am. I'm a novice..an enthusiastic beginner...just  starting out in the world of SP and I look to people like those on this forum for advice, inspiration and guidance. If I'm going to be sneered at and ignored or ridiculed because I don't fit into someone else's idea of 'what steampunk is' because I don't 'live the part' 24/7 then fine. I would simply find another forum that isn't so 'elitist'.
It would raise the question, though, of how does one start out in any 'scene/social group' if those who have been into it for considerably longer look down on the those just starting out because they didn't get into it as early as they did and don't completely embrace the entire ethic by having  Victorian style homes.. collecting  brass bits and bobs..wear period clothing at all times and sport a pair of whiskers you could hide a badger in!?

Not that ANYONE has been rude or elitist towards me since my arrival on here I hasten to add...nor have I read any posts aimed at others that sneer at them for not being full on SP. Everyone has been very friendly and charming..it was merely a hyperthetical 'If...' (or to more precise..a hyperthetical 'How..'?)

[TimeTinker]

Badgers - we don't need no steenkin' badgers.  (Sorry to be flippant but it just slipped out).

I think the thread has moved away a little from the issue as Steamblast Mary originally raised it.  She was suggesting that we find a way to nominally seperate those people who come to Steampunk with the ideals and motivation that you outline for yourself Sir from people who will adopt the "style because it is cool". 

Elitism is directed against the latter regularly in these august halls and the concern of some of us is it may (and indeed has) put off some of the former.  Some people seem obsessed with making things.  This is not the sole arbiter of "steampunkiness". Neither is dressing appropriately nor living the life style.  It's about a common interest in the style and genre.  It is also about a way of interacting with one another which is supportive and encouraging.

We should not be hostile to anyone lest we turn away someone who has a valuable contribution to make.  Luckily I think for the most part we are not openly hostile to anyone.

Motion: We should corporately ban the use of the term "Wannabe" (and variants thereof) since it is both patronising and condescending.

[Capt. Dirigible]

Badgers - we don't need no steenkin' badgers.

Never fails to raise a smile...

[groomporter]

I find it a little hard to be elitist when some of what we do is really nothing more than what trekkies do -dress up and play make believe.

[Capt. Dirigible]

I find it a little hard to be elitist when some of what we do is really nothing more than what trekkies do -dress up and play make believe.

Good point...Groomporter. I have said in the past when people asked me about what the vampyre group got up to.. I would say we are no different from Old West enthusiasts who dress as cowboys  or Trekkers who dress up and 'pretend'...but other vamp fans would say that particular comparrison makes them sound 'sad'....

If one refuses to accept that  for the most part one is 'playing dress up' or 'make believe' then I think  that is being naive. We have no right whatsoever to  judge other groups who dress as 'whatever' and pretend and think they are 'sad'.

Besides..I bloody LOVE dressing up!

[Utini420]

We have drifted from the original mark, but it's an interesting discussion.

I think there are two similar but opposed "elite forces" that have been mentioned:  Elitism from those who buy fancy stuff, looking down on those who can't afford to, and Elitism from craftspeople looking down on those who can't make.  Both a rather silly, either can be extremely crass, and the first one is particularly full of shite.

While I personally value hand skills greatly, they are by no means the sole arbiter of one's steampunkyness.  That said, it is an interesting aspect of the whole steampunk thing, not quite unique but certainly unusual among countercultural movements: in this here thing of ours, it seems that the craftsman has usurped the minstrel.

Think about it, in oldschool punk, rock n roll, goth, metal, you name it the Cool Guy is the guitar player (or whatever).  In hip hop, its the rapper, in rave/club environments it's the DJ.  But not here.  Sure, we love a good tune and what would an event be without music, but playing the guitar is by no means the only way to earn steampunk streetcred, and probably isn't even the top earner.  I don't mean to say other groups don't also value these skills, but they are sure aren't top dog like they are around here.

[DoctorZimbardo]

Hmmm....
*evil grin*
You're all elitists!!!
yep, left yourselves wide open there, especially for people like me. 

In all seriousness though, you are going to get accusations of elitism in whatever group or subculture you have. There will always be the types that want to have all the best shinies and gloat at others, or claim they are distinctly more steamy than you or whatever floats their boat. Personally I tend to ignore these people as they really aren't worth my time. Thankfully this forum seems to avoid that kind of behaviour and are a bunch of lovely chaps and chapesses. The fact that we are even having this discussion means that the folk here are a cut above the rest.

[Prof Gaylord Fielding]

I think that the Steampunk "scene" is far too broad to have any justification for elitism.  There are so many things that Steampunk encompasses, such as dressing-up, crafting, writing, roleplaying, etc.  Not everyone is into or can do all of these things, be it because they don't believe that they have the skill or money for it or that they're not interested in that part of the scene..  People have so many different ideas and concepts for Steampunk that it isn't exactly one scene, but many, as it should be.  Really, Steampunk is what you make it.  Sure there are people that can be egotistical and think that they are better than everyone else, looking down on everyone, be it for a "more justified" reason, such as the Hot Topic discussion that was previously mentioned in this thread, or for reasons entirely of their own internal fabrication.  From what I've seen in person of those who are into Steampunk, they are very nice and welcoming of anyone else that is in the least bit interested; the only criticism was constructive criticism, to help out those that want to improve upon themselves.  I, myself, am currently lacking in material objects that would make others may find necessary to consider one part of the scene, but I've got a few things, got dozens upon dozens of gears because of a scrap-bin at one of my places of employment, a moleskin notebook full of "in-character" ideas, sketches, etc., and a love for the genre.  I don't see how anyone can look down on anyone for their interests in such things or their lack of ability, as long as their is passion in what they are doing.

[Josh of Vernian Process]

Just look at it like this:

This guy could be a Steampunk (obviously):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But so could this guy:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or this girl:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The point is that all of these people could be fans of Steampunk stuff, and that's all that is required for them to take part in this scene. Clothes are an accesory that people like to add to identify themselve's as a particular style. But who are we to tell the businessman in the second picture that he isn't Steampunk (even though mayb he owns every classic Romantic-Science Fiction novel ever written). Or the bimbo in the second picture. Maybe she's secretly working on an airship, but you would never know it if you judged her by her appearance.

[Violet Rose]

Speaking as an artist and a maker I am all for steampunks who are willing to shell out for items of steampunkerie that they do not have the time or the training to make for themself. We need more of em not less IMHO 

[Brian_r]

Indeed, steampunk is a state of mind and being more than anything else. It tends to be inclusive and welcomes those who wish to participate - how much you participate is down to the individual. What would be bad is if it becomes a bad case of navel gazing - rather like the bad days of the early goth scene (UK anyway), those long tedious arguments over The Sisters and The Mission (liking both was a serious crime ) Now take a look at Whitby goth weekend - its fantastic to see all the different ages (teens to pensioners) having fun and strutting their stuff. OK, some folks are there for that day only - so what.

Steampunk can and should be similar - not divisive but fun.

[TimeTinker]

This thread was started specifically to propound that same opinion.  Everyone seems to be saying the same thing.  We just seem to be doing so in slightly different ways and confusing ourselves into beleiving we are disagreeing.

[Captain Brandsson]

Are we leaving ourselves open to accusations of Elitism?

Only among the lowlies and who cares what they think? 

I find it a little hard to be elitist when some of what we do is really nothing more than what trekkies do -dress up and play make believe.

Some of us not even that.
Any elitism we have is mostly internal, which is a shame.

[leeps]

But so could this guy:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It would not have crossed my mind that the guy in the suit could not be steampunk. I wear a bland suit every weekday. I don't think my love of earning money precludes me from the realm of steampunkery.

[Mr Peter Harrow, Esq]

We are the elite who will allow anyone to join. It is no good discriminating against those who cannot for example make their own gear, they simply may not have that particular skill set, and I find it a constant surprise as to how few people have such skills.

However there are many other ways one may contribute utilising other skills or talents. Music, poetry, organising, events even if someone only has rudimentary skills in these areas it is the willingness to contribute, to put something back which makes you part of a community. The real wannabees are the non-contributors, those who will not give of their talent or time, not make any effort to interact or make friends, and I have seen such at SF Conventions. However I have seen the opposite, people who came to conventions, because of some other commitment only to have an epithany and join in wholeheartedly. The point is that no matter what overtures we make as a community, there are people who will not respond and become part of that community. It is perhaps such people who are elitist, and by their nature theyvwil not be the people contributing to this thread.

[Josh of Vernian Process]

The real wannabees are the non-contributors, those who will not give of their talent or time, not make any effort to interact or make friends

No... no... no..no no no no no...

Those are just people who like the Steampunk media. No one has an obligation to contribute to the scene. They aren't wannabes, they are fans.

[Mr. Straenge]

Yet another diatribe. Ye are forewarned.

I believe that, while unfortunate, every culture, mainstream or subcultures alike, can have elitism within them. One of my favorite quotes by Quentin Tarantino was always this - "I don't believe I am an elitist. I don't think the audience is this dumb person lower than me. I am the audience." The truth is that for those few individuals in whatever subculture, community, group they associate themselves with will always feel that they need an audience from the outside looking in as they seperate themselves while others just enjoy to be their own audience and act friendly, mutually, with everyone..

I admit, I am my own fanboy and therefore I do what I love to do in every way for myself. Whether that coincides with a collective is secondary. I never claimed to have a label of any kind other than being strange and eccentric. The closest thing to a label I consider myself to be is a Bohemian. In my younger years while Djing/traveling, I would often get called many labels, "Goth" being the most popular one. I would also usually answer it with the same "I am not Goth, I am just really frigging spooky" and join whatever group is there without prejudice or fear.

Now, for myself, I have never had trouble really fitting in anywhere no matter where I was. I have always been a bit eccentric and most accept that, if not respect it. However, I do believe that many people confuse Elitism with shyness. For instance, it is rather hard to understand how the drop dead gorgeous femme that walks into a room and barely speaks for anyone isn't stuck up but rather incredibly shy. It is the same with many subcultures as well.

A good example of this. On a typical wednesday night here in Indianapolis, as of late, we have a post-punk/goth-industrial/new wave night that really goes quite well except for an almost invisible line between the old-school goths and the hipsters. Its ever so slightly odd how a bar that is less than 40 feet in diameter could have that much of a division, but it happens. I have heard claims from both sides that the others are eletists/snobs/ect.  which may be true for a few on each side. However, I happen to know that quite a bit more are somewhat to almost excessively shy. Shyness is merely our subconscience hiding our fear and that fear prevents many of us from behaving friendly sometimes, especially to those we see who are in a tight-knit group. It's basically Highschool all over again for many people and they react much the same way, which is usually becoming their own eletist within their own group/community.

One of the reasons why I miss promoting was helping like-minded individual find each other, even if they didn't realize how like-minded they really were. Letting the tribes mingle, so to speak, and show how they aren't quite so different. In many ways, different groups/subcultures don't even realize their behavior. Comic book boy really doesn't quite understand how you could not know Captain America died just as Horror Movie Girl doesn't realize how you could have not watched the Saw series. The Gothgirl looks at you slightly odd when they realize you have never heard of Bauhaus and the Cyberpunk shakes his head almost sadly when you mention you have not read Neuromancer. They are all behaving rather eletist in some small ways while wrapping the fact that they know something that you don't around themselves to protect their identity from what they consider might be a threat to their individualism.

In this and other cultures, it is always the same, unfortunately and why it is so hard for certain people to not react/behave as if the rather eccentric looking man in the top hat isn't slightly eletist, not because he acts snobbish but only because they are so used to the behavior that it is an automatic reaction to anything they consider different, eccentric or, god forbid, strange.

-S
 

[OswaldBastable]

Thus far I haven't made a damn thing. I said it, ain't made shite.
Now that dosen't mean that I am less steampunk than anyone else nor does it mean that I am less cool than anyone else, but it also don't mean they are any less cool or steampunk than me. I don't see any reason to think one is better than another for any reason. It falls in with racisim, sexism and all the other ism's. There ain't no reason for it.  Now having said all that, I am working on some clothing and accessories for my own personal enjoyment. Not out of any other reasons other than I cannot afford some of the stuff that I would like to buy on the internet and I cannot buy it around here, there just ain't any around. I am making out of sheer "have to" reasoning. Not because I am extraordinally skilled (cog knows I couldn't build my way out of a paper bag if I had to) but because I am poor and cut off from the rest of the steampunk world by a sea of mundane rednecks (yes I said it. Seriously there are people right down the street from me that make Jeff Foxworthy and Larry the Cable guy look like Harvard grads)
Always remember that for every skilled artisan there are twenty people who can't do shite but are still passionate about the things they have in common, those twenty people are called "collectors" and have been collecting everything from paintings to pieces of kleenex for centuries.

cant argue with you

[Utini420]

If I saw "suit guy," my immediate reaction would be that we'd have very little in common.  I could be wrong, and have been plenty of times, which is why I try not to hold folks to my initial assumptions about them.  I don't begrudge anyone making a living, and I work in corporate America myself.  But assuming I didn't meet suit guy at work, but out in the world somewhere, well...  he chose to look like that, and this choice must be assumed to convey meaning.  I'm not trying to say I've already passed judgment on the guy just from a glance, but anyone who claims they DON'T make immediate first impressions based on how people choose to look is kidding themselves.  

This is an obvious shortcoming of first impressions, but that doesn't mean they don't happen.

[leeps]

True. I don't exactly wear my suit on my off-time for fun, but there have been times where I've gone out straight after work and still had on the suit costume. So anyone glimpsing me for the first time would naturally think "BORING". Little do they know.

Not to get off topic, but I enjoy the social experiment of seeing the totally different treatment I get when I go to the mall or shops in my suit vs. in my "real" clothes. For some reason, salespeople seem to assume that the 40-something lady in the Talbots suit has money, but the 40-something lady with the tattoos and boots and flowy skirt is broke. (Which also seems to be evidence that many people have NO concept of how expensive tattoos are.)

[Nikola Tesla]

hm...the guy in the suit looks kind of like a...I mean, erm, are you sure...?

And I say that having had to look much like that myself, not for work but for when I was looking for work.  Because people do judge by first impressions, and the job interview/ career fair "look" is an open admission that we all know it!

...but also, having been there, I wouldn't really assume I had nothing in common with "suit guy".  In fact, based on my past experience, when I see someone who looks like that in public I tend to assume they're on their way somewhere important.  (Like...maybe to sell a house...)  Not, however, that they are someone important.

That's because I know that one might not look the same all of the time.  "Suit guy" isn't ready for the gym or for gardening in the next five minutes, that's the only really reasonable assumption.

[Mercury Wells]

Elitist? No, we're just better dressed.