Are we leaving ourselves open to accusations of Elitism?

[SteamBlast Mary]

Spinning off from some tongue-in-cheek faux snobbery in the Asylum thread, maybe it's time this was bought into the open.

There are many threads with debates raging about Steampunk going mainstream, and by inference, attracting "wannabies". Sadly, the prevailing attitude often comes across as (and I emphasis that it appears to be, not necessarily is "oooh, good heavens no, we can't have that. People that aren't as steampunk as us? People who haven't been into it for years, before they even knew it had a name? People BUYING their outfits/accessories?? That will never do!"

... which seems completely at odds with the "Wahay! Everybody in, what's your take on the whole thing?" attitude that seems to prevail here. Yes, we're an exclusive lot, but that's 'cos we're better than everyone else (hem hem), not because we want to exclude people. It's natural to want to maintain the high standards we have set ourselves and prevent them being cheapened by mass-production/popularism/dilution/whatever- but doing so at the cost of looking down on all potential newcomers is simply contradictory.

Perhaps we should start by not classifying everyone who'd like to find out more/get into Steampunk after, say, reading an article on it, as "wannabies". This is patronising and condescending. Perhaps we need to find seperate terms to define the two distinct groups these tend to fall into: those that are genuinely interested and identify with elements of it, and those that want to label themselves as "Steampunks" because it's the "cool" new thing to be. The last thing we want is to intimidate and scare off the fresh blood (as it were) which is vital for the continuation and evolution of any subculture/scene/movement- whatever you want to define Steampunk as.

And, finally, it IS possible for people younger than you to be cooler than you were at that age (humph.) So try not to resent them for it.

  I haven't seen any element of scene wannabies [planning to attend the Asylum] - in fact the younger people who have approached me about attending have all been quite hard on themselves about potentially being wannabies.

[VernianProcess]

This sounds to me like an unfounded Stereotype. I have yet to see anyone in this scene act like an elitist. Frustrated at others misconceptions of something they've held dear for far longer than it has been a trend... yes. Elitism? No.

I think even my old friend Cory who sadly left this forum out of frustration, was never being an elitist. Rather He didn't like seeing something that he's been supporting vocally since the mid 90's become a new trend, or a passing fad. He didn't like the idea that in order to be a "Steampunk" you had to be a craftsman. And I agree with him. Though I think he took the words of a minor few vocal members a little too seriously. In general I don't find any of that attitude amongst members hear, and I was a member here before the forum even went public!

Spinning off from some tongue-in-cheek faux snobbery in the Asylum thread, maybe it's time this was bought into the open.

There are many threads with debates raging about Steampunk going mainstream, and by inference, attracting "wannabies". Sadly, the prevailing attitude often comes across as (and I emphasis that it appears to be, not necessarily is "oooh, good heavens no, we can't have that. People that aren't as steampunk as us? People who haven't been into it for years, before they even knew it had a name? People BUYING their outfits/accessories?? That will never do!"

... which seems completely at odds with the "Wahay! Everybody in, what's your take on the whole thing?" attitude that seems to prevail here. Yes, we're an exclusive lot, but that's 'cos we're better than everyone else (hem hem), not because we want to exclude people. It's natural to want to maintain the high standards we have set ourselves and prevent them being cheapened by mass-production/popularism/dilution/whatever- but doing so at the cost of looking down on all potential newcomers is simply contradictory.

Perhaps we should start by not classifying everyone who'd like to find out more/get into Steampunk after, say, reading an article on it, as "wannabies". This is patronising and condescending. Perhaps we need to find seperate terms to define the two distinct groups these tend to fall into: those that are genuinely interested and identify with elements of it, and those that want to label themselves as "Steampunks" because it's the "cool" new thing to be. The last thing we want is to intimidate and scare off the fresh blood (as it were) which is vital for the continuation and evolution of any subculture/scene/movement- whatever you want to define Steampunk as.

And, finally, it IS possible for people younger than you to be cooler than you were at that age (humph.) So try not to resent them for it.

  I haven't seen any element of scene wannabies [planning to attend the Asylum] - in fact the younger people who have approached me about attending have all been quite hard on themselves about potentially being wannabies.

[SteamBlast Mary]

He didn't like the idea that in order to be a "Steampunk" you had to be a craftsman.

 Sadly, the prevailing attitude often comes across as "oooh, good heavens no, we can't have that ... People BUYING their outfits/accessories?? That will never do!"

Yes, that is a bugbear of mine also. I don't have the skill to produce fantastic (in the true sense of the word) jewelry, and I refuse to be made to feel like I'm cheapening the whole scene if I choose to buy what other people have produced.

[Nikola Tesla]

Every possible "scene" or thing has someone in it who thinks it should be an "elite" thing, and others who do not.  I wouldn't worry about it.

He didn't like the idea that in order to be a "Steampunk" you had to be a craftsman. And I agree with him.

True 'nuff.  I was always more into the fiction genre myself, though I've tried my hand at a little crafting (with varying degrees of success).  I also like some of the re-enactment and role-play sorts of things.  Most of my crafting/experimenting has been more the mad scientist thing than the steampunk thing, and I still kind of make a distinction - not every stemapunk is a mad scientist, and not every mad scientist is a steampunk...but there's overlap, enough to make me comfortable with both.

[Ylva Gamall]

Me being a new member was luckily not scared away from this great community by all the older members. 

I agree with the craftsmen bit. I was never much good with my hands, though I try, but to try and make something is nearly impossible. I am great at finding things though and buying used and making it steamy with a bit of paint and crazy love (though I have yet to really come up with something worth showing, some day I say, some day...).

Every possible "scene" or thing has someone in it who thinks it should be an "elite" thing, and others who do not.  I wouldn't worry about it.

So true Tesla, so very true.

If "wannabies" do come about I would not care. They will either leave or stay and love steampunk and become memebers of the steampunk community. 

[TimeTinker]

I work pretty hard to promote steampunk and offer things which members of this community want to get involved in and enjoy.  I have always striven to be inclusive and encouraging.

Do you know why?

Because this is a creative community.  It is creative in many ways however. Some people take up scissors, needle and thread, some work with leather, some metal, some wood. Some craft sound, some pictures and some craft words. Some work with ideas and people.  The common denominators are imagination and application.  Personally I hate repaints on plastic toys but I respect that that is how some of our friends and colleagues choose to express themselves.

Yes we suffer from elitism and the occasional "more of a real steampunk than thou" attitude.  Some people will always react like that but the reason is often a natural urge to protect something that they feel is precious and worthwhile.  Do not castigate people for being protective of what we have - their motivation is often genuine and for the right reasons.  They need to be reassured that what they love will not be damaged or destroyed by an influx of newbies. It is important however that we stand up and make it clear that it is not necessary and it is unwelcome however since that is the same sort of bigotry as we get in race and religious hatred.

How to respond - be open and be welcoming. Encourage people into the "scene" but then lead by example as to what the "scene" really is. Show people what it truly means to be a steampunk, that it means creativity.  If they don't want to get involved in their own unique way, well they will vote with their feet and move on to the next thing.  We will still be here doing our own thing and enjoying it.

Everyone here has been welcomed by the community.  

Everyone who discovers the community from this point on deserves the same welcome.

Instead of despising them we should be encouraging and helping them to contribute.  We might find dozens of wannabes that move on but we might also find new, skilled and creative friends.

[Utini420]

OK, speaking as a craftsman, I see three pertinent facts:

1. If you've got two items, otherwise equivalent in every appreciable way, and Guy #1 bought his and Guy #2 made his own, I'm going to give just a bit more "street cred" to the guy his rolled his own.  While not universal, I'd expect a decent portion of those who make their own stuff to feel similar.  I don't mean to say that Guy #1 is uncool, not steam punk, a poser or anything... just that Guy #2's object is a bit cooler.  Here's a practical example -- based solely off their toys (a shallow assessment at best) who's cooler -- Her Doktor with his blunderbuss, or some guy who just put a Weta ray rifle on his credit card?

2.  All artists need patrons.  OK, maybe not ever single artist who ever lived, and many do it for sport not for real, but the point stands -- if an artist is going to sell his work, he needs a buyer.  And because he's supporting the artist's work, one would think the artist would be appreciative.

3.  Everyone hates Hot Topic, in this and every other subculture to have been comodified before us.  And they will comodify steampunk.  Its their job.  And when one can just walk into a shop in the mall and walk out head-to-toe steampunked, many people will do just that.  It won't make them bad people, but it will make them very lazy consumers -- not noobs, not posers, just lazy consumers.  And, future potential patrons.  

When #3 comes to pass, there will be those who look down somewhat upon those who take the easiest way out, and I will very likely be one of them.  

Is that Elitist?  I don't have to explain myself to you!  

[TimeTinker]

If you have the commercially produced head to toe steampunk and alongside it the works of art made with love and skill then it's not elitism its "aspirational".  Elitism would be where we get lazy consumers buying the top notch products and then looking down on people who can't afford to. 

Artists do appreciate patrons.  If steampunk were more mainstream then those of us involved in film and TV would find it a lot easier to make steampunk projects for broadcast and distribution.  I had a meeting today with a writer/producer about a film we would like to collaborate on.  It is going to be an uphill struggle to get it commissioned - steampunk becoming more popular might help that.  Mind you I am realistic enough to accept that if we do get it made and out there in the big wide world we may well face accusations of trying to cash in and just ride the next fad.  There will be elitist steampunks who say "oh its not really steampunk because it doesn't include (enter their pet idea and feature)"

You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time. You can't please all of the people all of the time. So guess what - enjoy what you do anyway. Life is too short to be boring.

[Mr. Boltneck]

Hard to say if there is even a scene to be elitist about...
Every movement, idea, etc. has this issue. I was in the first wave of what ended up getting rolled into "Goth." One thing I can't always get across to young acquaintances, who can't remember much before the internet, is that there was no "scene." Rather, there were many, and few of us dressed "to the letter" because there wasn't one, and if there was it was a dead letter. Codification came later, and frankly did not help things for anyone but Hot Topic and Alchemy.
Now, you can have a kind of instant snobbery, where if you are willing to listen, there is someone out there ready to tell you that whatever it is, you are doing it wrong. 4Chan is largely dedicated to this notion.
As for building stuff, well, I have done a few things, and have plans [evil laugh here] for much more, but on the other hand, I can't write fiction on a bet, and don't make music, nor am I ever going to be an exemplar of personal style and fashion. But I can use hammers, shears, taps, torches, and so forth. I don't reckon that this makes me somehow "better," but it is how I tend to express myself.

[VernianProcess]

I just don't see material objects even being part of the equation, as to whether or not someone is Steampunk?

1982 - I knew Steampunk was my thing when I watched the Wild Wild West with my dad at the tender age of 5 and thought that Jim West's train was the coolest thing I had ever seen.

1985/6/7 - I knew Steampunk was my thing when I watched all of the classic Disney films based on the work of Verne and the films that were inspired by similar tales.

1991 - I knew Steampunk was my thing when I would rush home from my friends house every Friday night just so I wouldn't miss the next exciting adventure of Brisco County Jr.,  

1994 - I knew Steampunk was my thing when I picked up a copy of the Castle Falkenstein source book, and just read it front to back without ever actually considering playing it. Simply to see all of the pretty pictures, and get ideas for my own stories.

1996 - I knew Steampunk was my thing when I read A Nomad of the Time Streams and was completely blown away unlike any book I had read before or since.

2000 - I knew without a doubt that Steampunk was always going to be my thing when I first played Skies of Arcadia, and was completely lost in it's rich and fascinating setting.

And in all that time (a good 10/15 years) I never once owned a piece of Steampunk paraphenelia, bought or made. But I'd be damned if anyone told me I wasn't Steampunk enough for their scene.

It wasn't until 1998 when I joined Cory on the old Steampunk Yahoo groups and discovered an actual fan base for this stuff I'd been in love with my whole life. A few years after that I started working on music. This music that had always played in the background in my head as I read, watched, or played all of the wonderful Steampunk related things throughout my life.

The whole point of this is that Steampunk is and will always be a metaphysical thing. It isn't an object, it is an idea. A very clever, very vivid, visual idea.

And notice how I never once reffered to myself as a "Steampunk". Because I just don't really believe that people should label themselves as anything.

OK, speaking as a craftsman, I see three pertinent facts:

1. If you've got two items, otherwise equivalent in every appreciable way, and Guy #1 bought his and Guy #2 made his own, I'm going to give just a bit more "street cred" to the guy his rolled his own.  While not universal, I'd expect a decent portion of those who make their own stuff to feel similar.  I don't mean to say that Guy #1 is uncool, not steam punk, a poser or anything... just that Guy #2's object is a bit cooler.  Here's a practical example -- based solely off their toys (a shallow assessment at best) who's cooler -- Her Doktor with his blunderbuss, or some guy who just put a Weta ray rifle on his credit card?

2.  All artists need patrons.  OK, maybe not ever single artist who ever lived, and many do it for sport not for real, but the point stands -- if an artist is going to sell his work, he needs a buyer.  And because he's supporting the artist's work, one would think the artist would be appreciative.

3.  Everyone hates Hot Topic, in this and every other subculture to have been comodified before us.  And they will comodify steampunk.  Its their job.  And when one can just walk into a shop in the mall and walk out head-to-toe steampunked, many people will do just that.  It won't make them bad people, but it will make them very lazy consumers -- not noobs, not posers, just lazy consumers.  And, future potential patrons.  

When #3 comes to pass, there will be those who look down somewhat upon those who take the easiest way out, and I will very likely be one of them.  

Is that Elitist?  I don't have to explain myself to you!  

[leeps]

Being a relative noob to Steampunk myself, I would have to say that I have noticed some Steampunk elitism. I'm not the least bit bothered by it. Every "scene" has had some variation of this. It's nothing remotely new.

[Flynn MacCallister]

This sounds to me like an unfounded Stereotype. I have yet to see anyone in this scene act like an elitist. Frustrated at others misconceptions of something they've held dear for far longer than it has been a trend... yes. Elitism? No.

I think even my old friend Cory who sadly left this forum out of frustration, was never being an elitist. Rather He didn't like seeing something that he's been supporting vocally since the mid 90's become a new trend, or a passing fad. He didn't like the idea that in order to be a "Steampunk" you had to be a craftsman. And I agree with him. Though I think he took the words of a minor few vocal members a little too seriously. In general I don't find any of that attitude amongst members hear, and I was a member here before the forum even went public!

My impression was that Cory, along with a handful of others, actually left because of a certain elitist attitude he encountered here, which implied that he "could not" be a steampunk as he did not construct tangible "things". I, however, haven't actually spoken with him about it. I do know some of what he's said about the idea of it being a "fad" and so on.

Like any and every subculture we have elitists. If we want avoid accusations of elitism, all we need to do is make sure that those are not the only voices that are heard.

[Agamemnon Magillicutty]

there's nothing elite about wanting to dress nice.

I wish more young people would decide they wanna look good, instead of dressing like hood rats.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

And, finally, it IS possible for people younger than you to be cooler than you were at that age (humph.) So try not to resent them for it.

No, it is not. I am the penultimate and very definition of "cool"...always have been.


Haw Haw haw Haw Haw!!!!!
 Never fault a bloke for trying, though!

Thistlewaite

[Flynn MacCallister]

And, finally, it IS possible for people younger than you to be cooler than you were at that age (humph.) So try not to resent them for it.

No, it is not. I am the penultimate and very definition of "cool"...always have been.


Haw Haw haw Haw Haw!!!!!
 Never fault a bloke for trying, though!

Thistlewaite

Beeman.

That is all.

[Agamemnon Magillicutty]

I bought my hat, and I bought my waistcoat.

I bought my tools, and other things that make up my 'persona'.

I'll be making my guns.

the plans are already drawn, and the parts are being collected.

following that, there will be other projects, I am certain, I may even make a few guns to sell.

[Arceye]

Like is said above. Every social group has elitists, sadly. I have a friend tells tales of elitism in Archery, and that has been around for far longer than just about any other social activity.

Hobbies have elitists, and people have different ways of dealing with them. One guy I used to know used to grab hold of people's elbows to show them his latest acquisition- he had limited skills as a modeller but loads of money- and was not popular. He was so elitist he would buy things to stop newcomers obtaining the necessary hardware to enter the hobby. (Meccano)

Seems to me Steampunk has an enormously wide appeal and the potential to survive most things thrown at it. Elitism is just a general social problem.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

And, finally, it IS possible for people younger than you to be cooler than you were at that age (humph.) So try not to resent them for it.

No, it is not. I am the penultimate and very definition of "cool"...always have been.


Haw Haw haw Haw Haw!!!!!
 Never fault a bloke for trying, though!

Thistlewaite

Beeman.

That is all.

Even I will allow that the Beeman is pretty cool is his own right.
( I was of course being "tongue-in-cheek"...I will say this, though...all my life, I've been doing things people thought were weird, and being ridiculed for it...five years later, everybody was doing it-by that time,of course, I had moved on to something else everybody thought was weird, ad infinitum...I'm slowing down in my dotage...Steampunk is probably "cutting edge," though, if past experience counts for anything.

Thistlewaite

[Agamemnon Magillicutty]

let me put it a different way.

I've only been an ACTIVE steampunk for about a month.

I've been a fan of it for pretty much my whole life.

I found it to be a very accessible subculture, and I don't think anybody was unwelcoming or overly curt about things.

compare that to GAoP (Golden Age of Piracy) re-enacting, where strict rules are in place for historical accuracy.

with Steampunk, so long as there's obvious effort made, you're accepted.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

LONG LIVE STEAMPUNK!
HUZZAH!
HUZZAH!
HUZZAH!

[Vancouver Air Privateer]

I think the elitist thing is a silly stereotype. On the other hand, yes, I do label myself blatantly as "Steampunk" and yes, that is how I would define myself.

Quite a few people do get the impression that I am elitist. I.E. - he dresses nice and strangely, talks oddly respectfully and politely and doesn't have the same values as us. Elitist!" It is assumed I'm forcing it all... I just really like Steampunk and I believe it's not bad or elitist to make a commitment to bettering one's self.

Really, Steampunk is what you want it to be. These sort of threads make me laugh a little. My view on Steampunk has always been - go with what feels right. I think over analyzing it will sort of ruin it and make it more open for elitism. Most important part is to have fun, right? If we're all doing that then what's the problem?

[Taluria]

Admittedly, as a finder, not a maker (at least not yet), I have to say that I actually find myself feeling intimidated or not quite wanted by those who do make things. This may just be due to my own insecurity, but it is rather unpleasant to go to a meetup and while you might have a good time, feel as though you're somehow "not good enough" for about half of the people there.  Just my two cents. Sorry to nose in.

[Mad Miss Holmes]

Anyone can be accused of elitism. I doubt we'll be convicted. ^^
I have experienced elitism within Steampunk. Not here, so much, but elsewhere. Apparently, I don't put enough punk in my steam. I don't like rayguns. I don't do the grungy girl engineer look. Therefore, I'm not Steampunk. The only thing to do about that is to ignore the accusors. ~shrug~

[Zwack]

I make stuff, and I buy stuff...  I've made some things of which I am very proud (mostly some leatherwork, and a pair of canes) but I have not tried making clothes or watches.  I don't have the skills or equipment to make watches or clothes.  I wish I did.  Perhaps one day I will work on those but for the moment I will let others make those for me. 

Does that make me less of a steampunk?  I hope not.  Would it make me more of a steampunk if I did make those too?  No. 

I think the socialist motto "from each according to his skills, to each according to his needs" sums it up.  If you have lots of good ideas but can't make then perhaps you can find people who can make but don't have ideas? 

All of us have something to contribute, even if it's only our voices.

Z.

[dman762000]

Thus far I haven't made a damn thing. I said it, ain't made shite.
Now that dosen't mean that I am less steampunk than anyone else nor does it mean that I am less cool than anyone else, but it also don't mean they are any less cool or steampunk than me. I don't see any reason to think one is better than another for any reason. It falls in with racisim, sexism and all the other ism's. There ain't no reason for it.  Now having said all that, I am working on some clothing and accessories for my own personal enjoyment. Not out of any other reasons other than I cannot afford some of the stuff that I would like to buy on the internet and I cannot buy it around here, there just ain't any around. I am making out of sheer "have to" reasoning. Not because I am extraordinally skilled (cog knows I couldn't build my way out of a paper bag if I had to) but because I am poor and cut off from the rest of the steampunk world by a sea of mundane rednecks (yes I said it. Seriously there are people right down the street from me that make Jeff Foxworthy and Larry the Cable guy look like Harvard grads)
Always remember that for every skilled artisan there are twenty people who can't do shite but are still passionate about the things they have in common, those twenty people are called "collectors" and have been collecting everything from paintings to pieces of kleenex for centuries.