Are we leaving ourselves open to accusations of Elitism?

[Hyren von Henry]

What drew me first to the steampunk ways is in fact that it is outragously hard to be an "elite". It's an asthetic movement more than anything else, so if you think it looks good damn well go ahead and do it. Steampunk is just an umbrella term for styles that are simmilar - I like to think of it as putting the souls back into the machine.

Anyone claiming that they are more "steampunky" than another based on some vague chronographic reasoning is either at best an idiot or at worst a cad!  -_Q

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

Quite so! Well said! As I have said before, and doubtless will again, "Long live Steampunk...whatever it is!"

Thistlewaite

[Orwin]

Dman:  That's the thing with -isms though.  Most rational people do discount the very idea of them.  However, as human beings we are not always as aware of our facilities as we should be, and old habits die hard.


People have mentioned already, but elitism occurs in some degree in any scene or field in which there is both new and old, or really any divisive factor that lets people think of themselves as "better" than someone else.


I think one of the advantages of steampunk is that there's a much more cerebral aesthetic about it, and such, people are going to be paying more attention, or at least more likely to pay attention, to not being knuckleheads.

But that statement itself is probably a bit elitist as well.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

I think one of the advantages of steampunk is that there's a much more cerebral aesthetic about it, and such, people are going to be paying more attention, or at least more likely to pay attention, to not being knuckleheads.

But that statement itself is probably a bit elitist as well.

Perhaps, but only as compared to those who are wholly outside Steampunk...in which case, it is perfectly acceptable. Obviously, we are a cut above the average! Elitist as compared to other Steampunks...not good. Elitist as compared to the rest of the World...so obvious as to be unavoidable. I mean....just look at 'em!   Ugh! 

T.

[AllisterCain9]

I think that elitism only shows up when the bought items are of very low quality. I think to myself, that when I see "steampunks" with jeans, long sleeve shirts, and spray painted nerf guns, I feel slightly superior. I will never walk up and tell them that, or email them about their costume, but deep down I will chuckle to myself. I will remember the time when I completely punctured my finger with a stray copper river, and I will smile to myself.

Its less elitism and more of a reinforcement of feeling of self accomplishment for myself at least.

[TimeTinker]

I apologise for a belated reply to the posts made since my last one. (I've been over to a Mess Dinner to celebrate the anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo so have arrived home having had a very pleasant if slightly rowdy time with a bunch of joint services intelligence bods from the British Forces and the US Airforce and Navy. Consequently I find myself in good spirits  )

Utini - sorry for being a little hard on you and thank you for your response.  I hope there are no hard feelings.  Please note I was not defending people failing to read a thread properly - I was actually decrying that some established people here don't read a thread properly before replying so is it fair to expect a newbie to read all of the old threads?  It is actually one of my pet peeves - you spend ages making a reasoned and well thought out contribution to a discussion and someone throws in an inanity having ignored where the conversation is actually going because they can't be bothered to read the thread.

On the whole this is the best forum I have ever come across in terms of polite mutual respect.  I suppose one of my passions is actually in the maintenance and promotion of that.  As I said earlier I understand that many people's "elitist" responses are actually a result of their passion to protect something we all hold dear.  With that in mind I said clearly they should not be criticised or abused for doing that. It is only right and proper that we encourage people to be welcoming and polite though so that we do not "leave ourselves open to accusations of elitism".  There is not rampant elitism, we don't encourage rampant elitism but we do respond negatively to people sometimes. On occassion these people do not deserve the response they get. Sometimes they do so fair enough.

I think we get a bit hung up on the comments about makers and buyers.  To me that is not such a problem as blasting newcomers for posting old ideas etc. Admiring good kit, well made items etc - that is natural aspirational behaviour. Being rude and unwelcoming because someone hasn't learnt the ropes is patronising and elitist.

This is a special place, we will work to keep it that way and the fact that we do concern ourselves with the mechanics and reasons for doing so is surely a positive sign.

Don't worry about it guys, enjoy what we've got - just be aware we need to take care of it.

[steamtastic]

I do understand why one would be wary of “wannabies”. There is this growing fear among some, that kids will turn steampunk into little more than a fashion trend, stripping it down of its culture, meaning and roots. We all share for love of steampunk, and many here have done from the very birth of the sub-genre. So what could be worse than seeing what you hold dear, changing into something it’s not, right before your eyes? I suppose than in more cases than not, people are just desperately trying to protect steampunk. However, on all my time on brass goggles, (which isn’t that long), not once have I seen anyone on the so called wannabie side of things. People who like steampunk, like it for what it is, not as any trend. In my case; and I bet in most, it seems that I liked steampunk way before I even new all this had a name.

[Hyren von Henry]

How about a steampunk diet of bugs? we could then split into orthadox steampunkery and reformed steampunkness!

[Tanuki]

Is there a culture, meaning, or root to an æsthetic? I should say it is unlikely, and hard to prove even if true. You'd have more luck finding a culture of peanut butter enthusiasts (at least they have brand-loyalty); meaning in reality television (it means the downfall of entertainment); the roots of bell-bottomed trousers (I'm sure Google can provide certain answers). The problem, as I see it, lies in people wanting such things from Steampunk, which in the end is merely a collection of preferences and habits, and therefor arbitrarily deciding upon what "is" and "is not".

[Capt. Dirigible]

I do understand why one would wary of “wannabies”. There is this growing fear among some, that kids will turn steampunk into little more than a fashion trend, stripping it down of its culture

A sure fire guide to how commercial any particular 'sub culture' has become is when  clothing and accessories start turning up in shops in Camden Market. Whilst browsing shops there yesterday I did notice in two shops, among the leather pork pie hats, stetsons, toppers, baseball caps and and assorted ethnic headwear I spied a couple of pith helmets. Also came across a couple of ladies Vivtorian/goth type  dresses with lots of brass buttons..one even had an attached keyring with three brass keys on it.

It will inevitably start to creep into places like Camden..the odd stall...a small section in the basement of some goth type emporium where they keep the  brass goggles...the more Victorian themed than gothic coats and top hats...fob watches with the innards on display..and just about any old sh*t with a cog or airship motif on it..
It's when they start printing t-shirts with slogans like 'Less Steam..More Punk!'..or ''I (HEART) Steampunk!" we should really start to worry!

[steamtastic]

It will inevitably start to creep into places like Camden..the odd stall...a small section in the basement of some goth type emporium where they keep the  brass goggles...the more Victorian themed than gothic coats and top hats...fob watches with the innards on display..and just about any old sh*t with a cog or airship motif on it..
It's when they start printing t-shirts with slogans like 'Less Steam..More Punk!'..or ''I (HEART) Steampunk!" we should really start to worry!

I second that. steampunk is how YOU interpret it, not what some sh**ty shop or media says. God... I dread to think how MTV and stuff like that will one day interpret steampunk....

And that point I made about steampunk having roots. What I meant by that was people need to be educated on what things made and make up steampunk. Like for example, you go up to some wannabe steampunk saying they know all about the genre but then find out they don’t even know who Julies Verne is. That kind of thing.

[Captain Brandsson]

It goes both ways...  They have no more power to ruin it for you than they have to define it for you.

[Hyren von Henry]

I don't watch mainstream media, takes too long to fire up the boiler for the TV....

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

Seen it come and go with other things...patience...when it blows over, we'll still be here.
Maybe a delayed dividend will be some good stuff in the Thrift Shoppes.

[garingling]

It goes both ways...  They have no more power to ruin it for you than they have to define it for you.

Seen it come and go with other things...patience...when it blows over, we'll still be here.
Maybe a delayed dividend will be some good stuff in the Thrift Shoppes.

Here! Here!

[Josh of Vernian Process]

It will inevitably start to creep into places like Camden..the odd stall...a small section in the basement of some goth type emporium where they keep the  brass goggles...the more Victorian themed than gothic coats and top hats...fob watches with the innards on display..and just about any old sh*t with a cog or airship motif on it..
It's when they start printing t-shirts with slogans like 'Less Steam..More Punk!'..or ''I (HEART) Steampunk!" we should really start to worry!

I second that. steampunk is how YOU interpret it, not what some sh**ty shop or media says. God... I dread to think how MTV and stuff like that will one day interpret steampunk....

And that point I made about steampunk having roots. What I meant by that was people need to be educated on what things made and make up steampunk. Like for example, you go up to some wannabe steampunk saying they know all about the genre but then find out they don’t even know who Julies Verne is. That kind of thing.

MTV Has already done a report on Steampunk.
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1595812/20080926/abney_park.jhtml

[iapryx]

Re the Camden Market: I think the "wannabes" that most steamers are wary of are the ones who do it because it's cool and everybody else is doing it. BG exists because everyone wants to do this, no matter popular it is or isn't. The two attitudes are at odds with each other. As it gets more popular it'll be harder to tell who cares about steampunk, which is something that is NOT measured by what you wear or make yourself (I'm not a maker, but on first impressions I do give makers more credit for their work).

It's good this kind of thread comes up every so often. It keeps us mindful of our manners.

[SteamBlast Mary]

How about a steampunk diet of bugs? we could then split into orthadox steampunkery and reformed steampunkness!

If Steampunk could ever be described as Orthodox, I'd hand my spanners back in there and then.

A sure fire guide to how commercial any particular 'sub culture' has become is when  clothing and accessories start turning up in shops in Camden Market. Whilst browsing shops there yesterday I did notice in two shops, among the leather pork pie hats, stetsons, toppers, baseball caps and and assorted ethnic headwear I spied a couple of pith helmets. Also came across a couple of ladies Victorian/goth type  dresses with lots of brass buttons..one even had an attached keyring with three brass keys on it.

Fine by me. The more stuff I want to wear in the shops, the better, I say. If anyone here wants to open a steampunk stall in Camden, good luck to them I say.

and just about any old sh*t with a cog or airship motif on it..
It's when they start printing t-shirts with slogans like 'Less Steam..More Punk!'..or ''I (HEART) Steampunk!" we should really start to worry!

Gah... a sobering thought. The prevailing train of thought appears to be commodification = the dilution of the principals, handily illustrated in the scenario above. However, the line between "readily [more easily] available" and "mass-produced/tacky" is subtle and probably more about taste and perspective than logistics or demographics.

The mass production/mainstreaming debate will rage for as long as people care about it. It was partly in response to some posts in the thread showcasing Alchemy's new Steampunk range that prompted me to ask the initial question.

[Utini420]

As it gets more popular it'll be harder to tell who cares about steampunk, which is something that is NOT measured by what you wear or make yourself.

No, it won't.

I am going to reveal a bit of my own elitism (again...) on this response, but I'd like to split something of a hair with y'all, and make a comparison back to goth culture and Hot Topic.  But if you've got a decent number of both around, one can almost instantly pick out the "hard core" goth folks from the Hot Topic goths.  I'm using DragonCon as my main example, but there is just a world of difference.  The "real" goth outfit looks lived in, has bits that don't match or look hand maid or repaired, and I'm not sure how to say this but at the same time has aspects that go deeper (tattoos, idiosyncratic jewelry, whatever) and other that are "close enough," meaning this piece and that bit go together without being identical.  The Hot Topic goth got the entire outfit all at once as a packaged ensemble.  I always figured people would take those outfits and break them up but no, at least a lot of the time they wear the whole outfit, as a unit, just like it was displayed in the store.

Now, there are many aspects I've removed from this example -- neither person made their own garments from scratch (or if they did we're assuming they did so well that we can't tell) or is wearing a handmade costume.  And all we know about them is the cloths.  Both made purchases, but one of them got it a bit at a time, probably over years, from many different sources and combined it themselves into an outfit.  The Mall Goth (or, the much feared Mall Steampunk) is wearing a pre-packaged, finished outfit, provided for them as is ready to go from a single convenient consumer outlet.  I have no respect for this, and no shame about it.

You can't do it yet -- Hot Topic might carry an item or two, but you'd still have to at least assemble the outfit.  When we and commerce all get to the point where people can buy a full outfit off the rack complete with matching cogs, people will take this rout.  Now, at least in my experience, the person who's taken the time to assemble their own persona (that being outfit, attitude, and situation as it is in moment) is generally going to have a deeper interest in and understanding of "whatever" (goth, steampunk, camping, whatever) than someone who picked the whole thing up off the rack and wore it unchanged.  I'm not saying they will be bad people or uncool or not worth talking to or not really steampunks.  

But we'll be able to pick 'em out in a heartbeat.  The rest will be up to them, and how the roll after that.

[Hyren von Henry]

Of course, our "elite" status relies entirely on the "newbies" giving a crap what we think.

And, to be fair, a "newbie" steampunk is going to act and look like a slightly mad victorian... I for one welcome this as the social norm. If they're having fun, who are we to stop them? sooner in a pre-packaged frock coat and goggles than a pre-packaged shell suit, if you get my drift...

[Utini420]

Bah!  Merely the whimperings of discontent street urchins!  Pay them no more heed than the cries of a heated cat.

[Nikola Tesla]

I think that elitism only shows up when the bought items are of very low quality. I think to myself, that when I see "steampunks" with jeans, long sleeve shirts, and spray painted nerf guns, I feel slightly superior. I will never walk up and tell them that, or email them about their costume, but deep down I will chuckle to myself. I will remember the time when I completely punctured my finger with a stray copper river, and I will smile to myself.

Its less elitism and more of a reinforcement of feeling of self accomplishment for myself at least.

I'm just going to play Devil's Advocate a bit here.  (Translation:  I readily see your point, and for the most part agree with it; there's a pride in putting together a good device, outfit, or whatever that a shoddy one can't match. But...)

If someone's just doing a costume for a weekend or a party, there's a sort of "points for ingenuity" thing that comes into play, of the "I did this with just some stuff I had on hand, in the last half hour" sort.  Someone who does this with a steampunk theme is of course not "identifying" as steampunk; they're just doing a silly costume and having fun.  If someone throws together a costume outfit out of a few rags from the back of the closet and a Nerf gun, it's no skin off my nose, but of course there's the fact that if I walk up to such a person at a convention or whatever and strike up a conversation I will probably not hear that they consider themselves a "real" steampunk.  "It's just something I put together for fun."  And that's ok by me.  Of course it's not of the quality one would expect from months of workshop labor, careful bargain/antique hunting, and research into history on the one hand and tech on the other, and it wouldn't get the same kind of gold star in my view that, for instance, some of the work you see around here gets, but that isn't what they're after (one hopes - it may be, but one has to ask before assuming that of course!).  The "cheapie" outfit has an entirely different sort of appeal.

OK, Devil's Advocate hat off.  Just throwing in another view.

[leeps]

The beauty of steampunk being marred and violated by mass-appeal is inevitable, in my opinion. The tasteless public at large will get a glimpse of something on TV, try to imitate it in a lazy and style-less manner, and fail miserably because they have no real desire to be creative. The most you can hope for is that the infatuation will be short-lived and that they will soon move on to something else.

On the other hand, I'm still waiting for them to get their hands off punk rock after all these years. A little part of me died the day I head a Clash song in a car commercial...

[iapryx]

Now, at least in my experience, the person who's taken the time to assemble their own persona (that being outfit, attitude, and situation as it is in moment) is generally going to have a deeper interest in and understanding of "whatever" (goth, steampunk, camping, whatever) than someone who picked the whole thing up off the rack and wore it unchanged.

A dose of reality? In my alarmism? Thanks for destroying my doom and gloom premise Utini.  

EDIT: I guess I am more concerned about how to maintain the integrity of our online community in the future than picking out such cads in meatspace. We could close off to get all the poseurs out of the picture, but then we'd exclude all the honest people too. Also, that'd be elitism or something.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

A little part of me died the day I head a Clash song in a car commercial...

Oh, God...me, too!