Are we leaving ourselves open to accusations of Elitism?

[Tanuki]

the point being that even in a subculture those who are always DIY will be more respected, and duly so... those who are never DIY will be looked down upon and those who have a mix, as most will, they will be pushed forward to become 'elite'

And I do not agree, sir. There is, to be sure, a definite DIY stream in Steampunk, but it is not by any means required. Many a time, things are made by individuals only because they're not available to purchase. Buying one's clothing, furnishings, &c does not make one looked down upon by others, really at all, so far as I can tell. It would be surprising, indeed, to see such airs put on by a person.

[Sgt.Major Thistlewaite]

No-one here 'looks down' on anyone else...excepting of course occasionally when one may find oneself in an airship, and waving to ones friends on the ground.

[tophatdan]

hunny is condescending?

wow, I'm out of the loop...

[TimeTinker]

I am sorry to say Dan that you still have a young man's need to measure yourself by others.  With maturity and confidence you will find you can measure yourself by understanding yourself.

Show me a man who constantly gets into bar fights and I see someone who cannot control his aggression or keep himself safe.
Show me a man who constantly gets into barfights and wins and I see a bully who has issues about his own confidence that he has to boost his ego at the expense of others. Bullies are worthy of nothing but contempt.
Show me a man who constantly gets into barfights and loses I see a fool who has issues about his confidence who tries to boost his ego and fails. This man is worthy of nothing but pity.
Show me a man who fights only when he needs to but then always wins then I see a man worthy of respect for he has the confidence not to try and bolster his ego by measuring himself against others.

Being elite is about being the best you possibly can.  You do everything you can to the best of your ability.  If you are truly good then people admire what you do and aspire to be you.  Your ego is bolstered without dominance.

Being elitist is about control and dominance. Elitism is the refuge of the people who are not truly elite but want you to beleive they are elite. Elitism is the refuge of the dishonest, the conmerchant and the trickster.

Being elite is the home of excellence.

No doubt you will argue back at this and not accept what I am saying since you are still subject to the lies and tricks of elitists.  When you have more life experience and you know that what you do is the best it possibly can then you will learn to relax and let people come to you for advice and guidance because you are the best, not because you tell people you are the best.

I wager that in twenty years time you will remember this and you will realise "oh my god that's right!"  For the moment you have a need to keep measuring yourself and it is not until you know the joys of true achievement and the depths of abject failure that you will understand.

A simple lesson - the Elite are the ones who are put their by people offering admiration.
Elitist are people who put themselves there and demand admiration they are not worthy of.

For the moment you are an elitist and you are earning no admiration at all. Shame.

[Acadian Angel]

hunny is condescending?

wow, I'm out of the loop...

The only time I don't find it condescending coming from a male over the age of 80 OR from my S.O.   You are not my S.O. and I very much doubt you are over 80.

It goes in the same category as bird, broad, chick/chickie, dame, split tail, etc.

OTOH, if you wish to use darlin' I'll accept that as I am a card carrying member of a group referred to as G.R.I.T.S. (Girls Raised In The South), and very rare is the Southern female who doesn't respond to or use darlin' as a form of address.

[iapryx]

Sometimes I say "Doll" to much the same effect, Acadian. It's more original... maybe. Glad to see another southern steampunk on here.

I hostely think though that after the inevitable popularisation of the genre that its sturdy followers will retreat back into our dank underground catacombs and continue on as we are now.

This is the measure of steampunk. If you're interested because you are interested, then you qualify. If you're doing it because it's cool and the conformist punk police want you to, then you won't be as happy for starters.

[Acadian Angel]

Sometimes I say "Doll" to much the same effect, Acadian. It's more original... maybe. Glad to see another southern steampunk on here..

Ok, if you're in a WWII uniform or a zoot suit and we're swinging  

Yeah, I think there may be a few of us around.  I'd like to find some more so we could do something other than just showing up at Dragon Con, hehe.

[TimeTinker]

Here in the coalfields of Yorkshire, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire we have the interchangeable terms of "love" and "duck" sprinkled into conversation.  Interestingly there is a sort of code to it - married men and women (or of that age) use them to everyone (male, female, younger, older)  Young women use the terms to older men and women. Young men sometimes use them to older women.

Can't really see it as patronising but it is an interesting colloquilism.

[Acadian Angel]

True that Time Tinker, some of it always has to do with where and how you were raised.

I'm actually better with someone calling me "honey" in a face to face conversation, but "hunny" especially on forums screams leet speak which I find just silly.   I don't like reading posts or emails from people who don't use punctuation either.  It just seems somewhat lazy to me, as if the poster can't be bothered to take the time to truly talk to those he or she is addressing.

Interestingly enough, the term 'leet speak' actually addresses some of the same elite vs elitism discussion we have been having.

[TimeTinker]

Excellent points acadian.

I am certainly in agreement with you on punctuation.  How a sentence is punctuated changes the meaning entirely since it moves the emphasis around the sentence in a way that intonation does for speech.  People who don't bother to punctuate are actually showing they are careless with their meaning or are being patronising in so far as they do not worry if a reader can understand what they have written. Laziness is a perfectly reasonable supposition on the part of the reader.

"leet speak" etc is a classic form of elitism. "Unless you are one of us you will not be able to understand us. Wecause we speak in a code that only superior beings understand." It is about control and demanding conformity.

Common vocabularies evolve for two reasons:

1. To improve communication (for example specialist terms etc that saves you having to explain a concept every time you use it.)
2. To control communication (using terms to exclude the non-cognoscenti from the conversation.)

Occasionally they are used for both purposes at the same time (for example by lawyers and doctors).


Of course cultures and groupings develop vocabularies to generate a sense of belonging and corporate identity (corporate meaning of a body not part of a business )  This is not always elitist but becomes so if that language is then deliberately used to exclude people who would like to be part of that grouping.

The use of affectionate terms here on the boards of BG are interesting.

We see Sir, Ma'am, m'dear and darling commonly.  For the most part the former  are used to show respect to the other poster and the latter to demonstrate appreciation or affection for the other poster (in which case both sides normally have exchanged messages etc and consider themselves to be friends or at least good acquaintances).

Hunny and such terms are much less common and only usually appear when someone is trying to put down the other speaker.  Of course context is everything and how the rest of the text plays out sets the scene for the word. In face to face conversation intonation makes clear whether someone is being patronising or not hence it is easier to accept when you can actually see and hear the speaker.

If we are dissecting speech I note the use of "dint" by tophatdan - is that a term local to where you are from Dan?  I am not 100% sure of it's meaning with regard to does not (doesn't), do not (don't) or did not (didn't) - perhaps it means all three in different contexts.  Please do not think I am saying it is wrong to use such a term, I am all for variation in language but a definitive idea of the meaning would be helpful for a poor foreigner.

[Acadian Angel]

In truth, Time Tinker, since this board is based in the UK, both Dan and I are the "foreigners."     However, as a resident of the US, the use of "dint" has no bearing that I know of in the written form of so-called US English.

[darkshines]

A few points.

If you started a fight in my bar, I would call the police, have you prosecuted and you would be barred from EVERY establishment selling alcohol in our Brewery Quarter, so thus would always be a loser.

I love the term "sprockets" for younger steampunks, thats just adorable

I call people pet names all the time as I am from t'West Country, everyone is hunny, sweetheart, darlin', lover, babes, kitten and so on. If you don't like it, thats fine by me, just tell me the first time I say it and I will not do it again.

[Miss Cheshire Cat]

 How a sentence is punctuated changes the meaning entirely since it moves the emphasis around the sentence in a way that intonation does for speech. 

Classic example:

"Let's eat Johnny!"
"Let's eat, Johnny!"

Punctuation saves lives. 

[The Kernel]

And the famous telegraph message, supposedly replying to the wife of a rich American wishing to by jewelery in Paris
"No price too great" which with punctuation became "No (stop) price too great"

[TimeTinker]

Panda eats shoots and leaves.

Panda eats, shoots and leaves. (who did he shoot?)

I now have an image of a panda wearing a suit and fedora in an italian restaurant in the 1920s, eating his meal then assassinating a mafia hood before calmly walking out.  Crazy eh?

[Goby]

To punctuation conversation:
I'm bad at it but the motto, "When in doubt use a comma." has saved (and condemned) me many times.


To topic at hand:

Be elite, act on a higher standard than most, hold your beliefs strong, dress in a dapper manner, and where your goggles, be proud of you devilish mustache if you wish.

BUT

DO NOT BE AN ELITIST! Be cordial and welcoming to curious (and sometimes ignorant) newcomers, impress them the same way I was a year and a half ago with intelligent conversation, whimsy and a level of etiquette that is unheard of on the internet (Let alone most of the world).

What I  like the most about this subculture (or scene, or group, or movement or etc.) is that it has never had the 'Holier then Thou' attitude that plagued punk, goth, grunge an others. Now as Steampunk sits on the edge of becoming mainstream(ish [I don't think it'll ever be as mainstream as others have become]) we should try to remember that as the level of curious/ignorant newcomers rises. Those who want to be Steampunk to be different or cool will fade away and who will be left but us, PLUS those who are like us but never would have found it.

So just wait out the possible storm of newcomers and all will be better after.

--Goby

[Hyren von Henry]

Am I leaving myself open to accusations of Elitism?

Yes. Yes I am.

WIIDDEE open.

Though I may not dignify any accusers' with a response 

[tophatdan]

I am sorry to say Dan that you still have a young man's need to measure yourself by others.  With maturity and confidence you will find you can measure yourself by understanding yourself.

Show me a man who constantly gets into bar fights and I see someone who cannot control his aggression or keep himself safe.
Show me a man who constantly gets into barfights and wins and I see a bully who has issues about his own confidence that he has to boost his ego at the expense of others. Bullies are worthy of nothing but contempt.
Show me a man who constantly gets into barfights and loses I see a fool who has issues about his confidence who tries to boost his ego and fails. This man is worthy of nothing but pity.
Show me a man who fights only when he needs to but then always wins then I see a man worthy of respect for he has the confidence not to try and bolster his ego by measuring himself against others.

Being elite is about being the best you possibly can.  You do everything you can to the best of your ability.  If you are truly good then people admire what you do and aspire to be you.  Your ego is bolstered without dominance.

Being elitist is about control and dominance. Elitism is the refuge of the people who are not truly elite but want you to beleive they are elite. Elitism is the refuge of the dishonest, the conmerchant and the trickster.

Being elite is the home of excellence.

No doubt you will argue back at this and not accept what I am saying since you are still subject to the lies and tricks of elitists.  When you have more life experience and you know that what you do is the best it possibly can then you will learn to relax and let people come to you for advice and guidance because you are the best, not because you tell people you are the best.

I wager that in twenty years time you will remember this and you will realise "oh my god that's right!"  For the moment you have a need to keep measuring yourself and it is not until you know the joys of true achievement and the depths of abject failure that you will understand.

A simple lesson - the Elite are the ones who are put their by people offering admiration.
Elitist are people who put themselves there and demand admiration they are not worthy of.

For the moment you are an elitist and you are earning no admiration at all. Shame.

fallacy of authority

[leeps]

fallacy of authority

Absurdity of denial.

[Acadian Angel]

fallacy of authority

Lack of punctuation ability.

[Tanuki]

fallacy of authority

Good god, man, he wasn't making an argument, he was giving advice! Really, I think perhaps tempers are becoming a bit too heated, here, and with no cause, to boot.

[TimeTinker]

Thank you ladies. I find myself blushing at being defended by the much fairer sex.

I will reiterate I mean you no ill will whatsoever Dan, quite the opposite. Indeed in your drive and passion I recognise much of myself as a younger man. I sincerely apologise if I have caused offence although I was aware when writing that you were unlikely to be able to accept what I was saying.

I hope I will still be around as a crusty old steampunk in 20 years time when you come to understand what I was saying.

[The Kernel]

fallacy of authority

And also that he (Timetinker), and for that matter I, have no higher authority here.

[TimeTinker]

I don't know about you all but if I feel I have offended someone then I tend to go over it in my mind for a little while to work out why and how it transpired.  I was just preparing a supper of fresh fruit for Lady Elsie when I was hit by a wave of intense irony.

The response to my post was "fallacy of authority".  Elitism is about the laying claim to authority as a controlling measure by people that do not deserve authority on their own merit. Elitism is the ultimate fallacy of authority.

I was not claiming nor do I claim any authority, in fact my posts on this thread have been actively decrying such as unmerited and unwanted.

By responding in such a way I am afraid Tophatdan has merely illustrated my point far more clearly and uncompromisingly than any amount of rhetoric or debate could achieve.  I can only hope that it is illustrative of a flash of understanding and therefore agreement but as acadian and leeps have pointed out with a lack of punctuation etc it is extremely hard to tell.

Oh, sweet, sweet irony!

I'll have to go an settle for raspberries and strawberries before Lady E finishes them all off.

[Mechanic]

A little part of me died the day I head a Clash song in a car commercial...

Oh, God...me, too!

Helter Skelter on Muzak at the grocery store.