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Author Topic: Didn't see this here...Cabestan Winch Tourbillion Vertical Watch  (Read 3967 times)
The Kilted Yaksman
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« on: January 23, 2009, 04:44:29 am »

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/12/19/the-cabestan-winch-t.html
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
They even have one on their home page that looks like it contains brass parts...
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rogue_designer
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clockwork gypsy


« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 06:01:38 pm »

These have been posted periodically. Beautiful watches, but then I've always had a thing for Fusee movements.
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Mechanism Man
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2009, 10:43:35 pm »

I don't often drool, but I am now. This is the most amazing watch I have ever seen - probably keeps lousy time and is too heavy for it's own good - but hell, when it looks that good I for one just don't care!
I remember that there was much talk about the chain drive when this was last posted, possible weak area in the design as I recall? I think that Hac was the man in the know when it came to this type of movement. And how on Earth do you machine a conical tapering ramp any way?!
A thing of beauty though. Thanks for reminding me that I still don't have £275,000.... 
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SaintSeptum
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2009, 10:53:42 pm »

I don't often drool, but I am now. This is the most amazing watch I have ever seen - probably keeps lousy time and is too heavy for it's own good - but hell, when it looks that good I for one just don't care!

For $275,000 it better lose less than a second per century. And wind and set itself. And allow the wearer to fly.

Gorgeous though, no question there.

-Elias
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HAC
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HAC_N800
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 12:03:27 am »

I don't often drool, but I am now. This is the most amazing watch I have ever seen - probably keeps lousy time and is too heavy for it's own good - but hell, when it looks that good I for one just don't care!
I remember that there was much talk about the chain drive when this was last posted, possible weak area in the design as I recall? I think that Hac was the man in the know when it came to this type of movement. And how on Earth do you machine a conical tapering ramp any way?!
A thing of beauty though. Thanks for reminding me that I still don't have £275,000.... 


Fusees  (chain drive) have been around for a long time (depending on what reference you use, you go as far back as the late 1400's. Several of Da Vinci's drawings show a fusee like device)
The problem the fusee solves was that of the old verge and foliot escapements being very sensitive to variations in drive power. Essentially, as the mainspring ran down in early spring powered clocks, the clock would run slower and slower..  In a fusee, the mainspring is coiled around a stationary axle (arbor), inside the barrel. The  spring turns the barrel, which turns the fusee by pulling on the chain, and the fusee drives the train.

From De Carle..
"When the mainspring is wound up (Fig. 1), all the chain is wrapped around the fusee from bottom to top, and the end going to the barrel comes off the narrow top end of the fusee. So the strong pull of the wound up mainspring is applied to the small end of the fusee, and the torque on the fusee is reduced by the small lever arm of the fusee radius.
As the clock runs, the chain is unwound from the fusee from top to bottom and wound on the barrel.
As the mainspring runs down (Fig. 2), more of the chain is wrapped on the barrel, and the chain going to the barrel comes off the wide bottom grooves of the fusee. Now the weaker pull of the mainspring is applied to the larger radius of the bottom of the fusee. The larger lever arm compensates for the weaker force of the spring, keeping the drive force constant.
 To wind the movement, a key is fitted to the protruding squared off axle (winding arbor) of the fusee and the fusee is turned. The pull of the fusee unwinds the chain off the barrel and back onto the fusee, winding the mainspring.
The gear on the fusee drives the movement's wheel train, usually the center wheel. There is a ratchet between the fusee and its gear (not visible, inside the fusee) which prevents the fusee from turning the clock's wheel train backwards while it is being wound up. In quality watches and many later fusee movements there is also a maintaining power spring, to provide temporary force to keep the movement going while it is being wound. This type is called a going fusee. It is usually a planetary gear mechanism (epicyclic gearing) in the base of the fusee "cone") which then provides turning power in the opposite direction to the 'winding up' direction therefore keeping the watch or clock running during winding. Most fusee movements include a 'winding stop' mechanism to prevent the mainspring and fusee from being wound up too far, possibly breaking the chain. As it is wound, the fusee chain rises toward the top of the fusee. When it reaches the top, it presses against a lever, which moves a metal blade into the path of a projection sticking out from the edge of the fusee. As the fusee turns, the projection catches on the blade, preventing further winding."



 The first fusees used gut cords, but by around 1650, you start to see chains appear. Making fusee chians was a specialty job in the watchmaking world, requiring really good eyesight and hand-eye coordination.
John Harrison used a fusee, supplemented by a remontoire in his marine chronometers.
 I have seen my watchmaker repair a fusee chain. He worked with a microscope (as he does for Accutrons) and his trick for getting the spacing between the chain plates correct was to assemble them with a piece of paper in between them, and then burning the paper out when complete.





One day, I WILL have a nice vintage working fusee pocket watch...

Cheers
Harold

Isochronism is the name for the adjustment that nowadays is done in movements to address the problem the fusee solved. Isochronism means the rate of the escapement will vary only slightly (or not at all)
across the full wind/unwind cycle of the mainspring.
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Mechanism Man
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2009, 12:18:51 am »

Reading that description Hac, just makes me realise that people have been very clever and very ingenius for a very, very long time.
The silicone chip may well be the pinnacle of mans achievments, but a good mechanical watch movement still knocks it into a cocked hat.
Long live the sound of a ticking, clanking device.   
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HAC
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HAC_N800
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2009, 06:25:58 am »

Indeed!.. (Although I would add movements that hummmmmm... There's something very specail about Accutron tuning fork movements)

Cheers
Harold
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K. D. R. Tempus
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What could possibly go wrong?


« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2009, 06:49:59 am »

I'll see your Cabestan and raise you a Quenttin.

http://jacobandco.com/quenttin1.htm

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von Corax
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Prof. Darwin Prætorius von Corax


« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2009, 07:16:45 am »

All together now: "Oooohhh...  Shocked"
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HAC
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HAC_N800
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 11:28:16 pm »

Concord is coming out with something at Basel this year, calling it the C1-Quantum Gravity. Not sure what it'll look like in the final form, but from the hints at the website, sure looks unique..

http://www.c1-quantum.ch/

Cheers
Harold
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SaintSeptum
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 07:33:50 am »

Isochronism is the name for the adjustment that nowadays is done in movements to address the problem the fusee solved. Isochronism means the rate of the escapement will vary only slightly (or not at all)
across the full wind/unwind cycle of the mainspring.

So I ran into this question today...

I was showing one of the watching I recently acquired to a friend of mine, who was fascinated (this seems to be a common response, even without opening the caseback.... interesting). She has no experience with antique watches, but because she's the type who does calculus for fun, she asked whether they would slow down as the spring unwound.

I told her no, but had to admit I had no idea why. Just that "they fixed that".

So, from the above (and as I recall, HAC, you've posted about fusees before) I know that the fusee was one answer to this issue, but that it's been supplanted by Isochronism. I've poked around online, but can't get anything more specific than "making it so the watch runs consistently through the whole wind". This is less than informative.

So how exactly does isochronism work?  Unless of course that'll require posting half a textbook and drive you to terrible fits. In which case you can tell me to buy a textbook ;-)

thanks!
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rogue_designer
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clockwork gypsy


« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 07:45:39 am »

So how exactly does isochronism work?  Unless of course that'll require posting half a textbook and drive you to terrible fits. In which case you can tell me to buy a textbook ;-)



From a quick search at TimeZone - http://www.timezone.com/

Quote
Isochronism adjustment involves a variety of specialized techniques, the most effective being the Breguet overcoil on the hairspring, which makes the system act to the best degree like a simple linear oscillator, whose frequency in theory is independent of its amplitude. It should be noted that automatic watches are far less dependent on adjustment for isochronism than are manually wound watches, since automatics are assumed to be always at or near their mainsprings' full usable power.

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HAC
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HAC_N800
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 05:13:46 pm »

Isochronism is the name for the adjustment that nowadays is done in movements to address the problem the fusee solved. Isochronism means the rate of the escapement will vary only slightly (or not at all)
across the full wind/unwind cycle of the mainspring.


So I ran into this question today...

I was showing one of the watching I recently acquired to a friend of mine, who was fascinated (this seems to be a common response, even without opening the caseback.... interesting). She has no experience with antique watches, but because she's the type who does calculus for fun, she asked whether they would slow down as the spring unwound.

I told her no, but had to admit I had no idea why. Just that "they fixed that".

So, from the above (and as I recall, HAC, you've posted about fusees before) I know that the fusee was one answer to this issue, but that it's been supplanted by Isochronism. I've poked around online, but can't get anything more specific than "making it so the watch runs consistently through the whole wind". This is less than informative.

So how exactly does isochronism work?  Unless of course that'll require posting half a textbook and drive you to terrible fits. In which case you can tell me to buy a textbook ;-)

thanks!


Calculus for fun? of course.. I can undertstand and relate..
Rogue-designer's reply is spot on, and it reminded me of a decent resource.
the Time Zone website has a section of technical articles here.

http://www.timezone.com/library/horologium

They also offer an online watch repair course (not free, of course..)
Its a decent starter course, gives you the basics of servicing a watch..

http://www.timezonewatchschool.com/WatchSchool/

Cheers
Harold

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SaintSeptum
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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 10:43:50 pm »

Ooooh, many thanks to both of you. I'm finding myself taking an interest in the technical side but somewhat unsure where to start. This helps :-) (Also, I happened to find a book in the Used section recently called "Timepieces: Masterpieces of Chronometry", which caught my eye by virtue of having a fairly technical focus and lots of nice diagrams and explainations. You people have broken me, BROKEN I say, with your enticing gears and grabba fragga mumble....)

Ahem. Anyway. So basically, Isochronism consists of precisely adjusting/engineering the balance and tensioning the balance spring in such a way that as long as it's getting enough energy to move it at all, it will move at the same frequency? Would that be about right, for a layman's explaination?

Thanks again gents :-)
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HAC
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HAC_N800
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 10:51:57 pm »

Yes.. isochronism basically ensures that the beat (rate of oscillation of the balance) of a watch will be as constant as possible, across the entire wind of the mainspring.  (i.e. at the varying power rates of the mainspring, as it unwinds). Note that modern automatics generally are not adjusted to isochronism, in that it's assumed that wering the watch will keep it sufficiently wound. (although, with modern materials, that;s not as big an issue as it used to be)

Cheers
Harold
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SaintSeptum
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 09:02:31 pm »

Many thanks again.... since said friend brought it up the question had been bedeviling me :-p
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rogue_designer
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clockwork gypsy


« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2009, 10:57:05 pm »


Ahem. Anyway. So basically, Isochronism consists of precisely adjusting/engineering the balance and tensioning the balance spring in such a way that as long as it's getting enough energy to move it at all, it will move at the same frequency? Would that be about right, for a layman's explaination?

Thanks again gents :-)

Yup. Very simply, the addition of the overspring turns it from just a spin, into a rotational pendulum. A pendulum has a constant period, regardless of it's angle of movement (ok - roughly constant, provided that the angle isn't over 20 degrees). As the watch winds down, the amount and speed it spins decreases (angle of movement), but it's period remains roughly constant.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 10:59:16 pm by rogue_designer » Logged
HAC
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HAC_N800
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2009, 07:10:10 am »

That type of hairspring is known as having a "Breguet overcoil" and is probably the single most effective means of achieveing isochronism.  Ir works best in a hairspring with 12-15 coils, as a hairspring that has many coils will be more uniform in oscillation. There are a few other things that were often tried, but were not as effective.The mainspring can be manufactured with a permanent bend in it that looks something like a big S or a treble clef. By having parts of the spring pre-bent in the direction it is wound up and other parts that are actually pre-bent in the opposite direction, you can create a mainspring that will deliver a much more uniform force throughout the the running of the watch (although this is usually negated after a while, as the mainspring takes on a "set" with use. The point that the hairspring attaches to the balance can also make a difference, as that can affect amplitude varaition. A balance in a watch that is not adusted for isochronism, will typically have an amplitude of about 270 degrees at full wind, which will drop to about 105 degress at low wind.  When the mainspring is wound up, the balance wheel will get more energy every time it ticks causing it it to swing further. But if the balance is swinging further, then it is going to take more time to travel that distance, and therefore the watch will run slower. Thats why you often see watches in need of cleaning run fast, The amplitude is low, and the balance arc has less distance to travel, hence, the watch runs fast.

Cheers
Harold
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