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Author Topic: On which a pistol that uses Shotgun shells is searched for  (Read 38826 times)
Everett R.I. Krowley, III
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« on: January 10, 2009, 11:05:08 am »

greetings my fellow steamies, today's puzzlement comes along the lines of wanting to design a weapon that can best be described as a spacey yet post-apocalyptic (contradictory in terms perhaps?) looking "hand cannon" that uses... I believed that they would be 12 gauge rounds.  The design I have in mind is, while sleek-ish (hence spacey) it appeares cobbled together out of the remains of several guns and their parts (hence the post-apocalyptic).  Weighty in the hand, hopefully multiple shot.

I'm just not sure how to handle the chamber where the shells are inserted, barrel length, etc.

again, always grateful for your assistance


(for some reason, something that might show up in Firefly/Serenity kept popping to mind, but I am not certain)
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Prof. Albrecht Von Taggërt
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2009, 11:52:32 am »

Greetings,

Sounds to me like you want a single barrel sawed off shotgun  something similar to the second gun on the left in this pic:


You could pull from some of the greats like the Luger, Mauser, Colt, etc possibly do a drum canister like the combat shotguns like so:


Just my thoughts, hopefully they help some =D
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Everett R.I. Krowley, III
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 12:29:24 pm »

hrm.  the sawed-off would be "short enough" but in truth I am looking for a "shot pistol"  that is a pistol that uses shotgun shells.  I was thinking something "large" and "bulky" like a NERF Maverick in general shape if that helps.

I apologize for not clarifying that in my initial post but I was partial asleep at the time and wanted to post before I forgot ^^;

And to cover my bottom, why this was posted in "How To..." is because its prop will naturally be made so I was also looking for tips on how one might do that ^^;
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Herkimer
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 01:15:08 pm »

Pepper box.  Multi shot, and easy to make... well an easy prop to make anyway.
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Zer0
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 01:42:20 pm »

I wouldn't recommend a 12 gauge for a hand gun. If you want a spread without putting a beating on your hand you have a few options.

1. If you want to be realistic but still shoot shotgun shells. at least make it more bearable by using a 20 gauge instead. That would be less powerful recoil.. .still be inaccurate as hell and hurt only a little less. (note when I say hurt I mean the kind of pain you get after repeated use.. one shot isnt always that bad)
2. You could use a hypothetical shotgun shell of say... 32 gauge .. I think that would be reasonable for a pistol and would still have a spread shot...
3. Your pistol could instead use pistol rounds with steel shot that comes out when it hits something rather then out the barrel like that.
4. you could design a sort of hyper porting (like is used now to keep the muzzle of large caliber pistols down when firing quickly) only with the porting facing backwards to help keep the recoil of a 12 gauge from hurting as much. ( the system works by directing exahust gasses from the explosion in the chamber upword from the barrel.
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elShoggotho
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 01:56:18 pm »

Hm... a .410 gauge multi-layered 16-shot pepperbox...
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Zer0
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 01:58:29 pm »

Hm... a .410 gauge multi-layered 16-shot pepperbox...


.410... That would be bleaming huge!!!!!!!

if you use the gauge measurement as being a number for which so many of the cylinders could fit into the standard cylinder size

thus 12>20     so .410 is ... well ridiculous

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elShoggotho
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 02:06:16 pm »

The .410 number is a standard bore number falsely called gauge.
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Zer0
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 02:22:09 pm »

would be the site though no? *chuckles*
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Kane_
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 02:54:38 pm »

I've seen cut down (shortened) .410 cartridges used in .455 Webley revolvers (.455 brass was hard to source) so the size of a 6-shot .410 revolver can be set at the .455 Webley level, increase weapon dimensions in line with cartridge dimensions to scale up.
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Sir Nikolas Vendigroth
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 02:58:29 pm »

Would the forum please remember that the discussion of modern (read - manufactured after 1914) firearms is prohibited.

Edit:

Stuff the rules, as long as it doesn't get out of hand, we'll be fine. Have you thought about using a .22 rat-shot cartridge? It's basically a .22LR cartridge with a small amount of lead shot in. Granted, that's probably not what you're looking for, but it's a possibility.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 03:05:46 pm by Sir Nikolas Vendigroth » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 04:48:54 pm »

Stuff the rules, as long as it doesn't get out of hand, we'll be fine. Have you thought about using a .22 rat-shot cartridge? It's basically a .22LR cartridge with a small amount of lead shot in. Granted, that's probably not what you're looking for, but it's a possibility.

Interesting I was thinking "Shotshell" would be the way to go.  It sounds like the same stuff.  Basically a cartridge of a given size with a quantity of lead shot in it.  The stuff I have to hand is .22LR with "aproximately 165 pellets of #12 shot" in it (I just looked at the box).  If .22LR is "too small" then I've just checked and one manufacturer makes the stuff in upto a 45 caliber using #12 and #9 shot.

These are generally intended for pest control, but they have the advantage of dispersal without the recoil of a shotgun.  Range is limited, damage is reduced compared to a standard handgun cartridge.  (I think that this technology has been around long enough to not count as modern).

Z.
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akumabito
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 05:14:28 pm »

Two words: Howdah pistol.
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HAC
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2009, 05:23:53 pm »

A quoted above--"Two words --- Howdah Pistol."  (and while I was typing this, too.... Grin)
 These were  pistols of "last resort" when hunting tiger or other dangerous game from howdahs carried on elepahnts, in the days of the Raj. These came in two (double barreled side by side) and four (two double barrelss in over-under setup) shot models. Originally the used .577 Snider and .577/450 Martini Henry rifle cartridges, both of which were British balckpowder cartridges from the Zulu War era.
a 12 guage equates to .729 as a caliber. The recoil energy of an average 12 gauge round is 32 fit/lbs, which is actually about the same if not a bit less that the recoil energy of the cartridges mentioned above.

There are current versions, usually in black powder muzzleloader form of howdah pistoles, offered in 20 guage, which is equivalent  to .615 in caliber, not to far off from the original .577 rounds, albeit the 20 gauge version is  less powerful.

They generally looked like this in design, very much like a shortened bgi game double rifle.




Cheers
Harold

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Marrock
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2009, 05:45:03 pm »

I once had a WW2 issue naval flare pistol I was going to convert, by way of making a barrel from something sturdier than aluminum, to take 12 gauge shells, making it a single shot break open 12 gauge pistil.
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pewtersmith
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2009, 07:09:55 pm »


Quite illegal now , but once upon a time there was the Ithaca Auto and Burglar gun:

http://www.ncc-1776.org/gifs/autoburg.gif
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Everett R.I. Krowley, III
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2009, 01:33:17 am »

... damn.  my apologies to the forum, I had forgotten about the non-modern firearms rule.  I thought maybe since it wasn't a realistic gun even if it used realistic ammo... gah x_x again, apologies.

Though.  I must say that the Howdah Pistol has about the size I'm looking for.  Big but not to long in barrel, and recalling the pepperbox reminds me of a smaller version of the Samaritan

Oh yes.  Thank you Marrock, I was also thinking Flare Gun but was unsure of if it'd work.

Before this is continued, or locked (shrug), I would also like to amend that the ammunition being used would be beanbag slugs as the user of this weapon is quite against killing the criminal element he goes up against.

Pewtersmith - That, again, is about the barrel size I'm looking for.

All these ideas are helpful and wonderful.  Now I need to figure out how to get it to be multishot, if possible.  If not, perhaps some kind of "clip" to carry extra ammo under the barrel.
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Torvald_Faust
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2009, 01:45:08 pm »

Interesting reading material, esspecially since I've got Clough's box with Anti-Airkraken rounds next to me Grin
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Kevin1632
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2009, 07:48:26 am »

What you want is this, (Grin)

http://taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=199&category=Revolver

It has the advantage that it is a revolver, and is also commercially available. Further it has a "look" that fits in with our style.

Regards,
Kevin
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Everett R.I. Krowley, III
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2009, 08:15:41 am »

hrm... I like the name "Judge" hehe

very nice, indeed. ^_^
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Marrock
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2009, 02:00:15 pm »

What you want is this, (Grin)

http://taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=199&category=Revolver

It has the advantage that it is a revolver, and is also commercially available. Further it has a "look" that fits in with our style.

Regards,
Kevin


If memory serves, Ernie Hudson whipped out one of those, or one very like it, towards the end of "The Crow" during the fight in the church.
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Prof. Albrecht Von Taggërt
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2009, 02:12:59 pm »

A similar gun was used in Max Payne , it was taking doorknobs clear off doors in a bathroom scene...lol
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Adan Shepard
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2009, 02:32:54 pm »

Hi there,

I guess the big question is are you looking for a realistic prop gun or a functional shooting "big gun"?


If you are looking for a "big" gun one of the Webley Bros. 1st model revolvers used a .577 cartridge think of a 24g shell cut down to about 1 1/2- 2 inches. These are pretty rare and very expense when found, but might make a good reference for creating a prop gun.  If you are looking for an actual shooter you might look at revolvers chambered .50 S&W or .50 AE. If you are looking at functional Black powder you might also consider one of the LeMat reproductions think it is something like 9 rounds cap and ball around a center shotgun. All cap and ball no cartridge. Al tho in the 1880's they did convert the cylinders to cartridge. Also there is the pepper box revolvers you could scale up something like that as a prop gun. That would have a real steamy look in a large bore

Howdah's are great fearsome guns but again very expensive for the real deal. Side by side props guns are easy to make chambering versions can make it more complex. Sawed offs shot guns are totally illegal goggle Ruby Ridge to find out about an extreme arrest of someone making them. However that said if you permanently make a shot gun so it can't shoot then it becomes a non-gun/prop but don't be surprised if cops want you to prove it's a non gun. There are cap and ball versions of the howdah out there that can be had at a semi affordable price.

Another possible way to go is the harmonica guns like the early rifles that Samuel Browning was making, these could be really any caliber in a cap and ball set up. They worked similar to the cap and ball revolvers of the civil war but instead of working in a rotary fashion using a cylinder they worked in a linear fashion using a block with the charges held in a line. A fair example of these used in a recent movie would be the rifles used in Mysterious Island. I would imagine that one of these could also be made in a pistol form both as a prop gun and as actual firing pistol.

Another one you could do is cut down a Zulu shot gun the action is a trap door with a side hammer. This would be a single shot and would have more of a piraty pistol look to it but would definitely classify as a "big" gun. These zulu's are pretty week so think of it only as a prop don't do it planning to actually shoot it. At best they are 100 years old and almost always have loose and very week actions. They used to be able to be had for about $100

3 other very steamy pistols you might be able to make as props that don't really fall under the "big" gun but could fall under the promiscuouse guns category.

Would be the Henry Volcanic repeating pistol. Very expensive and rare for the real deal but could be made out of a junk lever gun action. Might actually be able to be made functional instead of as a prop gun. You'd have to check to make sure you wouldn't be getting into trouble if you made it shootable. As a prop very cool and kind of different. 

Gatling pistol or carbine. Would make for a super steamy prop. The level of functionality would depend on your creativity and mechanical aptitude. It shouldn't be to hard to make something where when a handle is cranked the barrels would spin. Chambering and ejecting cartridges would be a lot more complex but not impossible. Plus the caliber could be anything you choose. 

There was also the Borchardt pistol that was invented in the early 1890's one of the 1st auto loading magazine pistols. It was the for runner of the Luger. They can be found and aren't as expensive as the Henry, .577 Webley, or howdah,but not as cheap as a Zulu.


Hope this helps

Adan
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Everett R.I. Krowley, III
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2009, 10:51:16 am »

In truth I think what I am ultimately looking for would actually be Dieselpunk, not Steampunk.  The prop in question would be fully functioning, EXCEPT it would not actually fire.  I like a lot of realism ^^;  y'know Deluxe model and all.  I wanted something big and "bring me my brown pants" inducing.  something akin to Hellboy's Good Samaritan mixed with Vash's hand-cannon from the anime Trigun but, again, with a more futuristic feel to it, a little more boxy I would venture.

Again, I had forgotten about the no modern firearms rule of the board, and the more I think about it, the more the look of the gun is leading to that end.  which stinks because I don't want to get myself or anyone else on this wonderful board in trouble for rulebreaking.

when I first envisioned this weapon for the story in which it appeared it was a breach-loader, holding three beanbag shells for stopping  criminals not killing them.  It was a single barrel, and was actually modded with a paintball gun so it could fire iridescent tracker rounds... though I'm removing that to slim the weapon down.

I'm not sure I want to make it a revolver, but if that is what makes it easier to hold multiple rounds than any other kind of holder (less springs and mechanical dodads and all), I'd be willing to make that change... as a revolver that huge would indeed be "bring me my brown pants" inducing.

My problem is, and I am apologize for all of you as it leaves you grasping for straws while trying to help me, is that I am having a hard time picturing it in my head.  which makes it difficult to explain to all of you.  Though the ideas and pictures you've shown me are indeed inspiring and for that, I thank you all ^_^
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Prof. Albrecht Von Taggërt
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2009, 04:09:19 pm »

Surprised no one linked these guns:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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