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Author Topic: Sword Cane Legality  (Read 37197 times)
CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2014, 07:36:05 pm »

Oh please tell me the how and where of this... I had my eye on an antique sword cane, but didn't buy it as I thought it wouldn't get through customs.
If a man can own a sword legally in the UK ...


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Either way, how does a fellow lycanthrope apply?
It's a bit of a misnomer as I was before I died!
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BTW It also depends on how your local police authority feel on the matter.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 07:41:48 pm by CPT_J_Percell » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2014, 06:54:23 am »

Does anybody know about the legality of these in the United States? Would a concealed weapons permit cover this?

As DrTom said. In the US it's mostly regulated at the state level and sometimes on the county level. A concealed weapons permit usually refers to a firearm and includes fixed blade knives but not always. In my state, the permit covers the entire state plus 35 other states but there are counties where I can't carry a fixed blade knife even with the permit. Go figure.

It's a lot of laws to keep up with. I'm pretty well versed in the carry laws in my state, and the other states I travel to, and I'm not sure about the cane without looking it up.
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2014, 07:06:13 am »

Nice to meet everyone! I found this old thread, thought I would be able to add something relevant to the conversation. In the USA at the time of writing (January of 2014), cane swords have been specifically outlawed in AR, CA, NY, MA. They are also outlawed in Canada.

There has only been one instance of a cane sword being used to harm another human being, and that was a duel that got out of hand around the time of the civil war. The victim even survived. Despite the realities, lawmakers seem to feel that the world is going to end in a giant, orgiastic kung fu battle by cane sword wielding terrorists. It is a case where the lawmakers get to look good on paper to take away something that has few enough proponents to fight back. Making a law can make a career. And people just do not get that when a freedom/privilege is taken away from one small subset of the population, everyone's freedoms are endangered.

In today's world your opponent will have a gun, a cane sword as a part of your self defense kit is not only a bad idea, it is an outdated one. I make that point very clear on the entry page of my store! http://caneswords.net/main.html

Sorry, will get off the soap box.

These can't ship anywhere these are illegal, and I am very sorry to hear that citizens of Britannia cannot even own something that is part of their own great heritage.

There are large gatherings here in the states where large numbers of participants carry swords, the renaissance festivals. They are in almost every state. If the swords are tied about the hilt so that it cannot be quickly removed from its scabbard ("peace bonded"), that seems to be okay. If you are going to carry a cane sword about, which is a bad idea anyway, always have it tied. If you cannot tie it, use heavy tape like duct tape which comes in black now. You may still get hassled, but it could be enough of an out to keep the mole-hill from becoming a mountain.



I'm sure you have good intentions but, unless the state law specifies duct tape, a person could still be guilty of a felony that carries real prison time. Anyone who's going to carry a weapon needs to know the real local law and not rely on common sense guesses. You'd be amazed by the number of people sitting in cells right now who had no intention of breaking the law (and never would) but made some technical error like you're suggesting.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 07:08:55 am by Steamworkshop » Logged
CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2014, 07:21:14 am »

That is still the one drawback over here.
You can own a sword cane but you can not take it out in public except under very special circumstances!
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von Corax
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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2014, 08:09:35 am »

Nice to meet everyone! I found this old thread, thought I would be able to add something relevant to the conversation. In the USA at the time of writing (January of 2014), cane swords have been specifically outlawed in AR, CA, NY, MA. They are also outlawed in Canada.


Standard disclaimer: IANAL. Just to clarify, a cursory search of the Ministry of Justice website suggests that sword canes are not specifically prohibited weapons in Canada. What is illegal, however, is the carrying of any concealed weapon, and a sword cane is by design and purpose a concealed weapon.

There might (or might not) also be further restrictions on the importation of sword canes.
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Keith_Beef
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« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2014, 08:41:23 am »

Nice to meet everyone! I found this old thread, thought I would be able to add something relevant to the conversation. In the USA at the time of writing (January of 2014), cane swords have been specifically outlawed in AR, CA, NY, MA. They are also outlawed in Canada.


Standard disclaimer: IANAL. Just to clarify, a cursory search of the Ministry of Justice website suggests that sword canes are not specifically prohibited weapons in Canada. What is illegal, however, is the carrying of any concealed weapon, and a sword cane is by design and purpose a concealed weapon.

There might (or might not) also be further restrictions on the importation of sword canes.


You know how the US requires toy guns to be fitted with a bright orange tip to the barrel, in order to identify them as toys? And blind people traditionaly carry white sticks? And blind-deaf people add red stripes to their white sticks?

Some kind of visual sign that announces "I am a sword-cane" should exist. It would have to be something at once both tastefully æsthetic and visible from an appropriate distance; I suggest about three yards is sufficient.

I propose that sword-canes should be identified by two one-inch wide silver bands, half and inch apart, the lower edge of the lower band being two-thirds of the distance between the tip and the highest point of the cane (including any arc of the handle section or pommel).

If the enormous lobbying power of the NSA (National Swordcane Association) could be brought to bear at first on those US states that have outlawed swordcanes, then the campaign could move on to Canada.

Let us remember that "cum dolones proscriptae erunt, tum soli proscripti dolonem habebunt".
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 11:54:24 am by Keith_Beef » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2014, 11:28:16 am »

Well, quite a feisty debate started up by a spammer advertising his website. He's since been kicked and banned.

Fenris: Short version, don't import one.

Long version:

From the UK standpoint.

The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988, made it illegal to trade in sword canes in the United Kingdom. However, antique swordsticks which are 100 years old or older are exempt.

Also be aware if you try to get one through customs via post, no matter the age, you'll have UKBA and the local constabulary knocking at your door. At that point they'll be taking a look at everything in your house and will be deciding whether or not to prosecute you, needless to say the item will be destroyed, whether they prosecute, or not.

https://www.gov.uk/import-controls-on-offensive-weapons
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/banned-restricted.htm

Also be aware that the sentencing guidelines for carrying one in public are fairly severe. There is no legal defence for carrying a concealed weapon in public, carrying one is considered to also be intent to use it. "Weapons offensive per se, or designed or adapted to cause serious injury such as flick knives, butterfly knives, or sword sticks provide evidence of intention." So not only will you be charged with carrying one, you will likely accrue a charge relating to intent to use it.

Being a concealed weapon, a person would be at the higher end of these sentences.

Statutory Limitations & Maximum Penalty: Summary Maximum 6 months and/or £5,000 fine, on Indictment 4 years, or fine or both. 2+3: Summary Maximum 6 months and/or £5,000 fine, on Indictment 4 years, or fine or both. If committed before 12th February 2007, 2 years maximum on Indictment

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/knives_and_offensive_weapons/


It should be pointed out I am not a lawyer.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 11:44:37 am by Major Willoughby Chase » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2014, 01:23:05 pm »

Fenris: Short version, don't import one.
Long version: 'clipped'

Thank you for the detailed reply. I think I shall have to stick with my Barleytwist Cane.
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« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2014, 03:26:35 pm »

My first "Swallowing" sword was a sword cane. Bought it at a Carnival for like $35. It was confiscated at an airport from my luggage.
They left the standard swords but took the cane because it was a "concealed weapon". Domestic US flight.

I could go to Federal Prison for 120 years for the weapons I carry in my RV. I often transport them across state lines as well.
Along with 13 swords, 2 spears and a Glave, 3 Rifles, a hand gun, a Crossbow and a Wrist Rocket I often have Pyro and Black Powder.

So far the "Are there any weapons in the vehicle" question has been fun, "Well actually Officer..." but all I need is one PO in a bad mood to ruin my day.
They could easily take and keep all my show props and put me in jail for life. Just for being a sword swallower.

The swords I keep exposed so they can't be considered concealed. I throw the sheaths away as soon as I buy a new one. Rifles and guns all dully locked/ registered and all projectile ammo is kept in a separate locked box. I do what I can but I have no choice.
If I want to make a living as a Sword Swallower I have to carry swords. In the US most of them are illegal to own and even more illegal to transport.
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« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2014, 08:04:16 pm »

So far the "Are there any weapons in the vehicle" question has been fun, "Well actually Officer..." but all I need is one PO in a bad mood to ruin my day.
They could easily take and keep all my show props and put me in jail for life. Just for being a sword swallower.

The swords I keep exposed so they can't be considered concealed. I throw the sheaths away as soon as I buy a new one. Rifles and guns all dully locked/ registered and all projectile ammo is kept in a separate locked box. I do what I can but I have no choice.
If I want to make a living as a Sword Swallower I have to carry swords. In the US most of them are illegal to own and even more illegal to transport.

You clearly do not own or transport any weapons. You have "stage props" and "tools of the trade" for performances.

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CPT_J_Percell
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« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2014, 08:57:37 pm »

So far the "Are there any weapons in the vehicle" question has been fun, "Well actually Officer..." but all I need is one PO in a bad mood to ruin my day.
They could easily take and keep all my show props and put me in jail for life. Just for being a sword swallower.

The swords I keep exposed so they can't be considered concealed. I throw the sheaths away as soon as I buy a new one. Rifles and guns all dully locked/ registered and all projectile ammo is kept in a separate locked box. I do what I can but I have no choice.
If I want to make a living as a Sword Swallower I have to carry swords. In the US most of them are illegal to own and even more illegal to transport.
You clearly do not own or transport any weapons. You have "stage props" and "tools of the trade" for performances.

Agreed, this is one of the exception in the UK. reenactment groups, theatre groups, filming groups are allowed them aswell.
In certain circumstances the "Swiss Army Knife" can also be classed as a deadly weapon.

One such exception for carrying a weapon in public is a Martial arts weapon (Katana/tai chi sword) which can be transported between vechile and place of practice ie the exhibition centre or training class room (I use the words class rooms loosly as they also cover rooms covered by the Japanese word of "Dojo".

At one point there was a proviso the owner ship of Swords required registration with the local police station but when I enquired (due to ownership of a curved blade Katana) all they wanted was contact details with a warning that they may occasional visit and check you weapons.
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Steamworkshop
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« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2014, 10:10:59 pm »

 
Quote

You clearly do not own or transport any weapons. You have "stage props" and "tools of the trade" for performances.


Actually, it's not a big deal in most of the US. There are a few states that require a permit to own a firearm but most don't. Carrying one in a  car, as long as it's not on your person, is legal in most states without a permit. Crossing state lines means nothing as long as you're following their laws.

Where problems occur is when someone travels from a free state into a restrictive state and isn't aware of the restrictions.
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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2014, 10:16:23 pm »

I've always thought sword canes were a cool idea, but  the rattle of the blade is sooner or later in my experience and personal opinion a completely insoluble problem. They all rattle after a while; its simply inevitable. The rattle negates the blade's concealment, and frankly, a rattling stick's not much of a deterrent, especially (as already pointed out) if one's opponent is packing iron.

Funny thing, I carry a work knife (it looks a lot like a scottish dirk) on my possibles bag strap at reenactments, and those omnipresently hovering weapon checkers never seem to see it even if I cut up my food with it at the table-- but they always want to talk to me about "what kinda gun you got in that holster?" Meaning my flutes/fifes, of course. Go figure...
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« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2014, 12:21:56 pm »

I wonder what the UK law says about a sword cane that cannot be drawn.

As I have one that has a metal pin drilled through the blade to stop it from being drawn?

Yes it still has a blade, but there can be no "intent" to use said blade as it cannot be drawn.

any ideas?

Grum
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« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2014, 02:17:26 pm »

I would think it would be okay. Similar to filing the firing pin down on a firearm. No?
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« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2014, 05:24:51 pm »

I wonder what the UK law says about a sword cane that cannot be drawn.

As I have one that has a metal pin drilled through the blade to stop it from being drawn?

Yes it still has a blade, but there can be no "intent" to use said blade as it cannot be drawn.

any ideas?

Grum

NEVER try to apply logic to anti weapons laws. They weren't written with logic in mind and they're not enforced with logic in mind.

ALWAYS check with local law enforcement if in doubt and make a record of who you spoke with.
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Peter Brassbeard
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« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2014, 07:43:33 pm »

Quote
NEVER try to apply logic to anti weapons laws.
Seconded.  I'd expand that to caution applying logic to the law in general.
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« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2014, 08:17:15 pm »

Careful with the law talk. Ban on politics, and all. Don't want the thread shut down.
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« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2014, 09:25:54 pm »

Careful with the law talk. Ban on politics, and all. Don't want the thread shut down.

Very true. I think this thread has value if it keeps people from innocently breaking the law and getting themselves arrested.

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Major Willoughby Chase
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« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2014, 03:10:52 am »

I wonder what the UK law says about a sword cane that cannot be drawn.

As I have one that has a metal pin drilled through the blade to stop it from being drawn?

Yes it still has a blade, but there can be no "intent" to use said blade as it cannot be drawn.

any ideas?

Grum

I believe pushing grey areas would be something where the legality is decided on during a court case.  If it's allowable, you'll go home, if it's not, you have a chance of staying at one of Her Majesty's Holiday Camps.  The argument for the prosecution, I would imagine, would be, as you have modified it to be incapable of being drawn, why do you need to carry the sword cane, why not just use a walking stick?  Considering how hardline the sentencing is on concealed weapons, it's not a chance I'd be prepared to take.
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« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2014, 05:11:43 pm »

There is a little known exemption to the laws....if it is for theatrical use. This even allows fully automatic weapons to be possessed, carried and used (so they can make war films with extras carrying otherwise prohibited weapons). So taking a sword cane to an event to demonstrate it's use would allow you to have this defence. Prior written details of the date and time of the event you are booked to have it at would be useful to carry with you.
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« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2014, 11:11:19 am »

There is a little known exemption to the laws....if it is for theatrical use. This even allows fully automatic weapons to be possessed, carried and used (so they can make war films with extras carrying otherwise prohibited weapons). So taking a sword cane to an event to demonstrate it's use would allow you to have this defence. Prior written details of the date and time of the event you are booked to have it at would be useful to carry with you.

Unless you are a qualified theatrical armorer with proper risk assessments and insurance in place, this will not be a valid defense. 
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Major Willoughby Chase
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« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2014, 05:13:51 am »

Can we keep this on topic please. This is about sword canes, please do not drift off in to a firearms discussion.
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« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2014, 12:53:50 pm »

Major Willoughby Chase, Rory B Esq BSc was comparing the theatrical defense for forearms with the legality of carrying a sword cane for a "theatrical" demonstration. as such it is still on topic, and should be addressed.

There is a little known exemption to the laws....if it is for theatrical use. This even allows fully automatic weapons to be possessed, carried and used (so they can make war films with extras carrying otherwise prohibited weapons).

Anybody can use a firearm on private land of supervised by the person who has the right to legally use said firearm. (I am aware that this is a bit of an oversimplification, but this is por the purposes of clarity.) Guns used in films are signed over to the film armorer by the props house supplying the film, or are otherwise legally held by him. The guns themselves are legal and licensed, and at no time are they "possessed" by the extras.
Sword canes on the other hand are an illegal item and cannot be legally owned. (Previously mentioned exceptions notwithstanding.)
For example, in the film The Wolfman (2010) Inspector Aberline, played by Hugo Weaving, carried a sword stick. but the stick that Aberline carries during the filming is a duplicate, a stick with no sword inside. meanwhile, off set, the armorer carried the sword part of the weapon without the stick. if the blade had been placed within the cane, it would immediately become an illegal concealed weapon.
Most sword sticks owned by Bapty, the armourer who supplied this film are genuine antiques. (A distinction has to be made between ownership and carrying in a public place.)

So taking a sword cane to an event to demonstrate it's use would allow you to have this defence.
 

No you wouldn't. Even of you were to make two journeys, transporting the blade and the stick separately, as soon as you bring the two components together you are on possession of an illegal concealed weapon. of you are using it for a demonstration, you are in a public place. 

There is a little known exemption to the laws....if it is for theatrical use.

I suspect that you are thinking of the Theatrical use defense under the violent crimes reduction act. This only applies to realistic, non-firing, replicas of modern guns, and as such, is not relevant to sword sticks.   

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Major Willoughby Chase
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« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2014, 05:47:48 pm »

Mr Addams

This was directed at several posts that I removed where board members had gone on to discuss the concealed carry of firearms in their states.
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