how do you deal with the inevitable hecklings?

[Zwack]

Schools are allot different in America than here obviously. As i have Already said starting a fight is bad and violence is silly blah blah, the main point i was getting at were my own personal experience's, i wasn't saying what i did was right or even clever i was merely giving you my perspective and view.

Legally in the UK you can attack someone in self defence as long as you 1) usual minimal force to contain the threat and 2) reasonably believe that you are being threatened.  It's a tricky line and the safest route is to give them a verbal warning "If you so much as touch me I will react in self defence."  At least that way if they then touch you, they were aware of the consequences and can't argue that they weren't. 

Using minimal force is also important.  If you can safely subdue them then do so... If they are part of a larger group then you can use more force on the grounds that you wanted to remove that one from the fight.

I would strongly suggest that you take some sort of self defence classes (they are probably offered as evening classes locally and will be cheap or even free).  The legal aspects will be covered at least enough, and they will usually teach you all sorts of useful techniques.

Personally I did Judo both as a child and an adult and found it to be enjoyable, good exercise and a confidence booster...  Particularly going to a grading when a really big nasty looking guy came into the changing room and I thought "I hope I don't have to fight him".  I did.  I won (but it was a very close match).  I was talking to him afterwards and told him what I'd thought when he walked in.  He said "That's funny.  I thought the same when I saw you." 

Z.

[Glass]

I wanted to avoid doing this because people tend to get weird when they find out what I do for a living. I am currently employed as a police officer with a midsize agency. I hold dual certifications in the state of Oregon as a Corrections Officer and Police Officer. I’m a member of my agency’s SWAT team and a traffic crash investigator (in training). I’ve handled and investigated pretty much every manner of crime up to homicide (which I’ve assisted in). I also train in Mixed Martial Arts (BJJ and some MT).

The only reason I bring it up is so people understand that I have a clue when it comes to street level violence. I’m well versed in use of force law and case law and have been in several violent confrontations.

If your attempts at avoidance have proven unsuccessful and you are being attacked (notice I didn’t say “fight”), you need to use whatever force is reasonable under the circumstances to ensure your safety. If you are outnumbered, outgunned, or your escape is cut off, you can legally use a higher-level force than you could in a one on one scenario.

Mere words are not a justification for force. Someone can say whatever they want. It is not until they demonstrate the intent to hurt you, obviously have the means to hurt you, and have the opportunity to hurt you that you can use ANY level of force against them.

Avoidance of a fight is ALWAYS the best strategy. I’m armed to the teeth at work and I still go out of my way to avoid using force. Why? Because weird stuff can happen in a brawl. I accidentally broke a guy’s arm one time when we were wrestling on the ground. Imagine if I had inadvertently broke my arm during that fight and he’d desired to kill me. It would have been easy for him to get one of my weapons when I can’t use an arm.

I stand by all my earlier advice but add this one caveat: The laws regarding self-defense vary from country to country. What is legal in the US may not be in the UK. So, avoid a confrontation at all cost and save yourself the headache.

Patrick

[Sir. Silence]

Thank you very much for your understanding Zorch, and yes i know that not getting into a fight is the best option. To all those that said, i know 3 basic forms of martial arts:capoeira (more of a hobby but still counts) :Shorinji Kempo (good for minimal force) : and i took a basic street defense/fighting course.

All these i never use unless in self defense (which has only been once so far).

Glass your job sounds very interesting and i cant see why people would react strangely to it :/.

Sir. Silence

[ohyn]

I have never heard of 'chavs' before today, but unfortunately in Southern California we have an equivalent.

Bros... *shudders*

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro

Can't count how many times I'd been harassed in highschool. By bros and brohos alike. >_>
In my experiences, ignore them! But, as a second line of defense always carry pepperspray, and possibly a small/med. sized knife.
I've brawled back in the day, but that's never any fun. XD Because the antagonists get what they want in the end, they get your goat and get you upset. (Yes, even if you win the physical fight)

[Lilith-Nighthawk]

The only fight I got into was with a girl  a few years ago that used to try to fight with my younger sister, and she got her arse kicked every time might I add by said little sister. I guess she thought she could take me because I wasn't known to get into fights. Funny enough I knocked her on her arse in one punch and she never tried to fight me again.

[ohyn]

I've had a few of those...

[Klynt Mahryd]

I just had a horrible thought.


Steamchavs.

[Zwack]

I wanted to avoid doing this because people tend to get weird when they find out what I do for a living. I am currently employed as a police officer with a midsize agency. I hold dual certifications in the state of Oregon as a Corrections Officer and Police Officer.

...

I stand by all my earlier advice but add this one caveat: The laws regarding self-defense vary from country to country. What is legal in the US may not be in the UK. So, avoid a confrontation at all cost and save yourself the headache.

Patrick

Greetings Patrick/Glass,

I currently live in Oregon and I used to live in the UK.  Your summary matches what I was taught in self defence classes in the UK (Liverpool to be specific) around 1990.  The laws will have changed since then, but I suspect that your summary is still close.

Z.

[Vincent Théière]

If someone is small minded enough to worry about how you dress then their opinion is obviously not worth worrying about.  Hold you head high and ignore the lot of them.
As for safety, I'm lucky enough to have size on my side, but carrying a cane with a brass head doesn't hurt either.

[Derranged-Gadgeteer]

I have never heard of 'chavs' before today, but unfortunately in Southern California we have an equivalent.

Bros... *shudders*

lol

Wigga Rednecks.

I've only run into a couple of people who fall into that trope.  And boy I'm glad I haven't more.

[Hikaro Takayama]

p.s. How many 7 ft bully's went to your secondary school??

Sir. Silence

More than I care to remember... Then again, the high school I went to was out in the sticks, so you had a lot of over-sized rednecks running about the place.

Zorch:  Thanks to my high school being filled with said rednecks, I also went through a lot of bullying.... Hell, because I wasn't completely obsessed with trampy girls, cars and sports, I was probably the result of more homophobic insults than any of the actual homosexuals in the school (I'm sure there were some, but they stayed firmly in their respective closets).  I did know that school would be over eventually, but when each week seems like a decade, and especially since I have a bit of an Irish temper, I would eventually fly off the handle....

Two things that happened in High school that made life bearable were:  1: I got into a fight with a guy twice my size and came out unscathed, and 2: In my sophomore year, this one bully who used to pick on my younger brother so bad that my brother would come home crying, decided to take me on after he got caught smoking on the bus (he accused me of ratting him out, but everyone, including the man on the freakin' moon could see the huge cloud of smoke surrounding him), and he flat-out lost... It was funny, I kicked his ass without even throwing a single punch!  He punched me in the face and broke 3 of his fingers (I may be of average height and a bit on the low side of average weight for my height, but I have a carbon steel constitution, and can shrug off damage that would lay out most other people my size).

After that, only the dedicated assholes (i.e. the people who everyone, even their "friends" hated) were ballsy enough to try and pick a fight with me.

@Glass:  I also did some law enforcement work, but as a member of the US Navy Shore Patrol in Yokosuka, Japan... Mostly what I did was round up the drunks who passed out on the sidewalks around town, and broke up bar fights (and detained the perpetrators until the base Masters at Arms could place them under formal arrest).  The rules of engagement and use of force were pretty much the same as you describe.  

Again, I also try to avoid violence if at all possible, mainly due to the fact that after I take a certain amount of damage, and if the fight is one for survival, I go completely berserk, and only have vague recollections of what happened (I first found that out when I fought those bullies in High School.... In the case of the second one, my 7-foot tall friend, Steve, a.k.a. "Ogre" had to physically restrain me from chasing that guy down and beating the living snot out of him after he punched my face), which is not a good feeling.

As I said, being percieved as some kind of whack-job tends to keep the riff-raff at bay.... One of my friends in the Navy, who grew up in NY City's worst neighborhood, told me that If I went around like I usually did (I tended to wear Chinese-style shirts with my hand-made coyote teeth and bead necklace with a large wooden cross on it) that people in his neighborhood would not mess with me, due to the fact that there was some group of religious fanatic vigillantees who dressed similarly and wore similar religious jewelry....

[Commander Obadiah]

Patrick has one hell of a good point. You do whatever you can to avoid a fight, under any circumstances. And while you may be well-armed, do you know how to use that knife effectively? Or rather, do you know how to fight someone with a knife effectively?

However! This isn't about physical abuse. This is about verbal abuse. And in that case, you either give as good as you get, or you ignore it. A lot of people say that verbal abuse doesn't bother them, but it's rarely the case. If it means nothing to you then ignore it, if it means something to you then take the piss out of the piss-takers.

Commander C. Obadiah

[Zastrozzi]

I just had a horrible thought.


Steamchavs.

I think we referred to them as 'the lower orders' and they knew their dam' place...

[Zastrozzi]

Two possibilities:

Firstly, recite to oneself the mantras from Nietszche's 'Also Sprach Zarathustra': 

"Verily, a polluted stream is man.  One must be an ocean to receive it without becoming unclean."

"One must have a chaos inside oneself to give birth to a dancing star."

"Flee, my friend, into your solitude: I see you stung all over by the poisonous flies. Flee to where a rough, strong breeze blows!

Flee into your solitude! you have lived too closely to the small and the pitiful. Flee from their invisible vengeance! For you they have nothing but vengeance.

No longer raise your arm against them! They are innumerable, and it is not your task to shoo flies.

Innumerable are the small and pitiful ones; and rain-drops and weeds have been the ruin of many a proud structure.

You are not stone; but already have you become hollow from many drops. You will yet break and burst from the many drops.

I see you exhausted by poisonous flies; I see you bleeding and torn at a hundred spots; and your pride refuses even to be angry.

They would have blood from you in all innocence; blood is what bloodless souls crave- and therefore they sting in all innocence.

But you, profound one, you suffer too profoundly even from small wounds; and before you have healed, the same poison-worm crawls over your hand.

You are too proud to kill these gluttons. But take care lest it be your fate to suffer all their poisonous injustice!

They buzz around you also with their praise: obtrusiveness is their praise. They want to be close to your skin and your blood.

They flatter you, as one flatters a God or devil; they whimper before you, as before a God or devil; What does it come to! They are flatterers and whimperers, and nothing more.

Often, also, do they show themselves to you as friendly ones. But that has always been the prudence of cowards. Yes! cowards are wise!

They think much about you with their petty souls- you are always suspect to them! Whatever is much thought about is at last thought suspicious.

They punish you for all your virtues. They pardon you entirely- for your errors.

Because you are gentle and of honest character, you say: "Guiltless are they for their small existence." But their petty souls think: "Guilty is every great existence."

Even when you are gentle towards them, they still feel themselves despised by you; and they repay your beneficence with secret maleficence.

Your silent pride is always counter to their taste; they rejoice if once you are humble enough to be vain.

What we recognize in a man, we also irritate in him. Therefore be on your guard against the small ones!

In your presence they feel themselves small, and their baseness gleams and glows against you in invisible vengeance.

You did not see how often they became silent when you approached them, and how their energy left them like the smoke of an waning fire?

Yes, my friend, you are the bad conscience of your neighbors, for they are unworthy of you. Therefore they hate you, and would rather suck your blood.

Your neighbors will always be poisonous flies; what is great in you- that itself must make them more poisonous, and always more fly-like.

Flee, my friend, into your solitude- and there, where a rough strong breeze blows. It is not your lot to shoo flies."

[Zastrozzi]

And best of all:

"Have you ever known, my brother, the word "contempt"? And the anguish of your justice in being just to those that despise you?  You force many to think differently about you; that, they charge bitterly to your account. You came near to them and yet went past: for that they never forgive you.

"You go beyond them: but the higher you rise, the smaller do you appear to the eye of envy. But the flying one is hated most of all.  'Why should I expect justice from the likes of you?'- you must say- 'I demand your injustice!  I crave it as my right and due!'"

[Zastrozzi]

And the second possibility is ironic self-defence, as explained by Alexei Sayle in this clip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V2lB4-Y0WqQ

[moko]

some awesome sotries here, infact ive never had this many replies to a thread ive posted on any forum! great community!
anyway, another encounter last night.

while walking to the shops, chavs everywhere, i pass a group of chavvettes, upon getting behind me, i hear them say "did you see his hair?" "no, thats a girl!" so i smile to myself, as i often get mistaken for a female, cant ever think why, and continue to walk to the shop. as i leave the shop the same girls are there, so i cross the road and hear one of them shout very loudly to their friend, "'isnt 'e a girl!" this caused to me to first cast a very stormy look to the floor, then i realised exactly what theyd said and went into a laughing fit. because by saying " isnt he a girl" you have cancelled out any queery and answered your own question by previously establishing i was a male and then questionoing it in a most moronic manner.

lancasters a funny old place...

[Katrina Broekhart]

People in my area really don't seem to know how to respond to my appearance. I suppose they're just unused to anything other than the standard conservative Hollister look. I haven't been "heckled", but I do have many interesting conversations with random people in the street, and I can't tell you how many times I've been mistaken for a museum guide. I generally get a neutral or confused reaction, but I always carry a rather scary-looking letter opener in my boot just in case- it's amazing how effective bluffing can be (The boots are rather dangerous, too). I also keep the fingernails on my non-guitar-playing hand half an inch long and filed to a sharp point, which is mostly aesthetic, though I can do some real damage with those, too, as I proved in my public school days..

Violence is always best avoided, though. It took me many years of my aforementioned public school education to learn this, and I'm glad I figured it out eventually. Things far worse than detention happen in the real world.

[lilibat]

I have been a goth for so long, I don't even hear them anymore. I just tune the trash out.

[Commander Obadiah]

Aha! The young Moko has learnt the first lesson to blissful ignorance. If you can laugh at a poorly worded insult, you can ignore the poorly worded insult. If you can ignore the poorly worded insult, you can ignore a well-worded insult. If you can ignore a well worded insult, you cannot hear any insult. If you cannot hear any insult, then you cannot be insulted.

Commander C. Obadiah

[Pheobsky]

This may have already been mensioned, but if you use a bicycle & stay on the road this may solve many problems:
1) peoples general attitudes to style tend to dissipate- think of some of the lycra shorts that get worn on people who really shouldn't! but they pass by with minimal harassment.
2) you're faster- if there is heckling you have no reason to pay attention or even engage said scum.
3) If people do decide to go for you, people are far more likely to take notice, especially if you are on a road.

Also the only thing I should say regarding carrying weapons is dont -even something like a cane if it is used in a fight is going to put you in a bad position in the eyes of onlookers/police. Instead if you really do need something as for whatever reason you can't avoid a scrap- use something far more innocent- I'd opt for keys as they're something that almost every person carries & so there is no way in which their use could be misconstrued- but when slipped between the fingers they can do a fair bit of dammage.

[Abraxas]

must reiterate: pepperspray and stun-guns are fairly accepted in the eyes of the law, as well as efficient at deterring would-be attackers.

[Flynn MacCallister]

I'd actually disagree with this (though the rest of your advice is spot on). I find that at least some eye contact is good as a "I know you're there" reminder.  I think without the element of surprise they are less likely to consider you a target.

That, and I simply refuse to walk around cowering, eyes to the floor - I consider that a sign of weakness, and its likely they would too. Being opportunists, showing you are weak is an invitation. More so than any perceived challenge from making eye contact.

You are exactly right. It is well known amongst law enforcement and self-defense instructors that predators seek out victims who meet certain profiles. They look for people they believe they can dominate and control.

Just the demonstration that you are not an easy target puts you way ahead of the curve. Every predator (4 and 2 legged) does a risk versus reward analysis. If you appear to offer more risk to the bad guy than reward, he is likely to pass you over in search of an easier target.

The term often used is “Target Hardening”. The idea is that no one can be or appear to be absolutely invulnerable, but if you appear to be a more difficult target to handle than the next guy, the bad guy will likely pass you over for the easier mark.

Strategies:
1) Make brief eye contact. It does in fact tell predators that you know they are there. You can do it without being confrontational or getting into a stare down (which is counter-productive).

2) Continually scan your surroundings. You’ll know what is going on around you and the bad guys will know that you know.

3) If you start to feel bad stuff is coming, leave. Don’t hesitate; just get out of there.

4) Don’t associate with idiots. If you have a friend that is a magnet for bad stuff because they make poor decisions, find a new friend.

Personal safety has been a passion of mine and I’m actually writing a book about it.

Actual self-defense using force is the subject of an entire thread on it’s own. The laws (in the US) aren’t actually that complicated when it comes to self-defense. You just have to understand some basic concepts.

Patrick

I've been told similar, but with one important difference: don't look like you're worried. Don't walk too fast, and don't look around too much. Walk at a normal pace, with your head high and your gaze unconcerned -- look around enough to know what's going on, but no more than you would normally.

This was based on research and experience by police and criminal psychologists in Australia, though... the environment of another country might just produce something a little different; I really don't know.

[Katrina Broekhart]

There have been some pretty epic stun-gun mods, I'm sure.
Pheobsky, I hope you're referring to a pennyfarthing.

[Zastrozzi]

must reiterate: pepperspray and stun-guns are fairly accepted in the eyes of the law, as well as efficient at deterring would-be attackers.

Not in the UK.

General rule about weapons is: don't carry it unless you're prepared to use it;  don't use it unless you're prepared to kill with it (pulling a weapon first can turn an argument into a life-or-death); and don't kill with it unless you're prepared to face the consequences - and you ain't, so don't carry it.